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BurgerBB

Random Asteroid "Dungeons"

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And also doesn't address the other problems, which makes me think you don't really have an answer. Because the entire premise hinges on the idea that people suspend their disbelief for the purpose of just inconsistent adding content for the sake of it.


I reiterate, again. Dungeons need to be concrete structures of fixed designs (there can be a lot of them, though) that spawn by chance, and don't rely on RNG just to determine the entirety of their content. 'Some fish and random stuff' is a low effort and low reward concept that does very little to improve the game

You need to read what you've said on page 4. You literally tried to shoot this suggestion down over the dungeons not being consistent or so it appeared. That is what I was talking about. They absolutely should not have to be cemented, they should have a theme and not ridiculous or unbalanced content, but their 'backstory' should be for the Xenoarcheologists/Science to deduce, not there in stone where all creative freedom and thinking and findings are thrown into the garbage.


My paragraph makes perfect sense in context to what you have said on earlier pages. I was telling you that they do not need to be cemented into the Lore by designers, Xenoarcheologists and the players can do that and it is literally their job to do it. There is no issue in 'suspension of disbelief' in that vein.

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I've repeated this several times to several people who brought up the same depressing point; which is something along the likes of "Miners are selfish/dumb this is bad for those poor poor miners, science is smart make them involved instead :("


And I'll keep repeating the point: "Do it yourself, Science." If you want to go find ancient ruins, crashed ships, or other things? Go Xenoarch. Get yourself an upgraded kinetic accelerator. Go find them with a small team if you want. There is nothing stopping you from finding this ruins before the miners do.

 

The issue here Burger isn't that Science should do it themselves, it's that you're trying to solely include Mining and no other department. Stop. That is the problem.


Include both Mining and Xenoarcheology. Give Xenoarcheology tools to find the ruins, give Mining tools to survive clearing them. They can work as a team in this regard. Xenoarcheology doesn't have gear progression like Mining does, unless they want to walk into R&D and print loads of stuff, they can't do it alone. And that could be construed as powergaming.


To argue that Mining should do it alone is the same or worse than arguing Science should do it alone. This could be a group effort on the part of Asteroid roles (Xenoarcheology, Anomalists, Miners)

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I've repeated this several times to several people who brought up the same depressing point; which is something along the likes of "Miners are selfish/dumb this is bad for those poor poor miners, science is smart make them involved instead :("


And I'll keep repeating the point: "Do it yourself, Science." If you want to go find ancient ruins, crashed ships, or other things? Go Xenoarch. Get yourself an upgraded kinetic accelerator. Go find them with a small team if you want. There is nothing stopping you from finding this ruins before the miners do.

 

The issue here Burger isn't that Science should do it themselves, it's that you're trying to solely include Mining and no other department. Stop. That is the problem.


Include both Mining and Xenoarcheology. Give Xenoarcheology tools to find the ruins, give Mining tools to survive clearing them. They can work as a team in this regard. Xenoarcheology doesn't have gear progression like Mining does, unless they want to walk into R&D and print loads of stuff, they can't do it alone. And that could be construed as powergaming.


To argue that Mining should do it alone is worse than arguing Science should do it alone. This could be a group effort on the part of Asteroid roles (Xenoarcheology, Anomalists, Miners)

 

>someone accuses me of trying to solely include mining

>introduced artifacts to ruins

>xenoarchs have a device to track artifacts, and therefore a way to track ruins

>mining has 0 way to track artifacts, and therefore 0 ways to track ruins


I'm pretty much done arguing this point, honestly. I've explained several times that xenoarch can track these ruins. There will be 0 additional ways for people to track these ruins other than the planned central command console update. If you're a science player and you feel left in the dark because of this, then tough titties.


This was always meant to be for miners. Miners can choose to let science in on the fun, as it currently is with xeno artifacts. 99% of the time they will and anyone who states otherwise honestly has a childish and destructive mindset. This isn't a science addition, it's a mining addition. Anyone who says that this PR should be rejected on the basis that miners get more fun than science should promptly reevaluate their argument and realise that not everything has to include science.


When this PR is merged, and you feel like there should be more added to it, I thoroughly encourage you to submit your own code and PR that introduces more ways for science to get involved. Unless someone actually gives a good idea that I agree with, the only planned feature is that central command will notify heads of staff of the existence of a possible crashed ship/ruin/whatever and now every department is involved if the heads of staff choose to get involved.

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>someone accuses me of trying to solely include mining

>introduced artifacts to ruins

>xenoarchs have a device to track artifacts, and therefore a way to track ruins

>mining has 0 way to track artifacts, and therefore 0 ways to track ruins

Xenoarcheologists can only track artifacts that are actually inside of a rock, they can't track cleared artifacts. You realise this, right?


And yes, from the very beginning you have tried to solely include Mining. And you just admitted to this. You are effectively saying 'Fuck that department, my department is the only one that matters.' How is that argument valid?


Even worse, everytime someone argues you should include more than one department, you try to ad hominem them and argue that they're being selfish. This isn't a constructive way to handle feedback.


This is on the level of people arguing Security should be the only one to go through the gateway. You have shown a very clear bias in this contribution, and if you're not going to develop it around multiple aspects of the game instead of tailoring it with a clear bias towards a single one, i'm taking a clear stance against it.


This shouldn't even be implemented if it's meant solely for Mining and not for Xenoarcheology at all.

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Okay so the beauty of being a contributor is that I get to code whatever the heck I want unless the developers find that the code I produce is unsatisfactory. I don't have to code more support for science unless I believe that science needs more tools to get involved, and they currently don't because I think this is satisfactory. Currently, I believe that science and mining are on level playing field when it comes to encountering ruins, and mining and science does not need more ways to find these ruins. Ruins are supposed to be a treat, and not something you should find every round. That's my philosophy on the matter. I'm not going to make it so that science has easier ways to find ruins unless someone gives a really good idea, and so far 0 ideas were given; just the cries of "include science" which doesn't help me at all because that only tells me that people believe that science is included, and doesn't give me any solid ideas to fix that problem.


Most of the posts in this thread is just complaining about a problem that I know exists. No one is giving ideas. No one is giving suggestions to fix it. It's just an endless sea of complaining about the same problem over and over again and me not having any ideas on how to fix it.


I have repeated this stance over and over again: Science will not get additional tools to detect ruins as it is too handholdy and not the intent of ruins. A message from central command to the heads of staff should be enough to track it.


However, I will make it so that xenoarchaeology can detect the location of artifacts that were already unearthed. it doesn't make sense that it wouldn't be able to detect them when they're out of the dirt.

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I've repeated this several times to several people who brought up the same depressing point; which is something along the likes of "Miners are selfish/dumb this is bad for those poor poor miners, science is smart make them involved instead :("

[...]

I'm just going to start ignoring bad posts that paint miners in a negative light. Honestly I prefer posts that just saying "-1 retard addon" because it's faster to read and doesn't contain a very depressing viewpoint of our community.

Then perhaps when the pr gets merged (it will) you can modify it to your liking :)

Scientists are spoiled brats as it is,

[...]

science would constantly cry over common about materials like a spoiled child whose mother told them they can't go to mcdonalds every day.

If you're a science player and you feel left in the dark because of this, then tough titties.
Okay so the beauty of being a contributor is that I get to code whatever the heck I want unless the developers find that the code I produce is unsatisfactory

 

You're being insufferable about this. Just because you don't like or agree with critique doesn't mean it's not worth your time. Enough people see an issue that it's at least worth genuinely considering. You say you 'get the problem' but you really don't seem to. Here's my stance:


Lore-wise, I think we can somehow overlook the fact that we keep finding these weird ruins on a meteor. We do the same thing with the seemingly endless number of artifacts, so we can BS it somehow.

Issue is that gameplay-wise this is going to encourage miners to rambo. I get you're saying "haha, if they do that they'll die" but I don't believe that for one moment. Simple mobs are so stupidly easy to beat if you're prepared (and I don't mean BIG GUN I mean taking some steel rods in to build defences and kiting them). And, even if it was true, it wouldn't stop people from going in. It would just mean they'd end up getting wounded all the time. If it's rare, that'll just encourage them to try ramboing even more: this will be the only chance they'll get for a while, so they may as well try. They won't bother reporting it because, fairly, a captain or security officer or scientist would say "leave it the fuck alone dude", because it shouldn't realistically be their job.

I also get you're saying that "well, it's roleplay, they should be allowed to investigate even if it's not a good idea!" and that's true, but then you're locking an entire gameplay mechanic for miners BEHIND them acting like brave warriors instead of miners. Even if they overprepare, they're still putting their lives in danger for what realistically a well-trained science + security team should be doing.


People are saying "include xenoarchaeology" so it makes sense and to encourage proper roleplay. Otherwise you're for no apparent reason giving miners a mechanic that's supremely better suited for a job that ALREADY EXISTS on-station, and not encouraging cooperation between the two. This is a great opportunity for roleplay - for working out a plan of attack as a team and going on this expedition to uncharted lands. But when people suggest "make them work together!" you shoot it down because not everything needs to include science.

This is right. Not everything needs to include science. But if it's a scientific field, it should include science. It would be like me including medical duties to science. It might give them something to do, and medical doesn't need to be involved with everything, but that's medicals job.


You want solutions? Here's some: incorporate things into these dungeons that need a variety of people to solve for whatever reason. Things that only miners have the tools to beat. Things that only xenoarchs have the tools to beat. Puzzles that need small numbers of people to solve. There's nothing gained from beating a dungeon but cool loot and street kred for risking your life if you do it on your own, but the roleplay that can be gained from investigating this cool-as lost tomb is substantial.

The walls can't be taken down without explosives. Bam, you need mining on your side. They know how to use the C4 things they get. This crystaline power-source needs disabling, good thing a xenoarch has the tools for that.

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I'm genuinely considered it and I don't think it's worth implementing.


Adding puzzles to dungeons is too much work. Needing multiple people to get into a dungeon is arbitrary and punishes antags, however if you wish to make a puzzle based dungeon, you can make a PR and submit your own design when this PR is approved. Keep in mind that science can make anything that mining has so it's impossible for them to rely on each other, such as explosives. It would punish miners to make them rely on science, however reward science too much when they can self-supply themselves.


I rather have players make their own roleplay with other people rather than be forced to work together. It's bad game design to force teamwork in a game such as this. How ruins are found and are interacted with will remain as is. It doesn't matter how right you think you are, or how many people continue to post in this thread saying that it's an issue. I've spoke with plenty of people with this idea. Those who think science should be involved more in this to the point where it cripples miners is a vocal minority.

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I rather have players make their own roleplay with other people rather than be forced to work together. It's bad game design to force teamwork in a game such as this. How ruins are found and are interacted with will remain as is. It doesn't matter how right you think you are, or how many people continue to post in this thread saying that it's an issue. I've spoke with plenty of people with this idea. Those who think science should be involved more in this to the point where it cripples miners is a vocal minority.

 

Man, this thread is only about you implementing dungeons as a concept.


You have 0 creative control over what dungeons people make and what they think makes a fun dungeon.


This thread keeps derailing as people (including me, let's be fair) tell you what dungeons need to be. If someone wants to make a dungeon that requires cooperation between science and mining, they're going to do it. (or they're going to ask someone else to do it, which has it's own gates for success).


This thread has told me people like the idea of dungeons. Go ahead an implement it. If people want to include their own ideas for dungeons, then they are free to do it. The only quality control should be for not including or removing included dungeons that are fairly objectively shitty (i.e. have a just bunch of carp that can wander free and some random loot), aren't fun (i.e. is just a maze with no purpose that has a miner-killing proximity bomb hidden at the end), or somehow ruin the game immersion (i.e. clown temples)

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I'm confused as hell with your post because it's like an entirely different person talking.


I've been saying this entire time that if you believe that you think a feature is added, make it yourself. I'm not going to code something that I have 0 motivation to code for. That's how it works when I'm not getting paid to do any of this. I think a lot of people here are forgetting this.

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Pretty sure what people mean is that they like the system you are proposing but not some of the kinds of "dungeons" you are suggesting. So if those are just some examples and not part of the same PR as the system then it's just misunderstandings. I initially thought the examples you gave were to be included with the launch of the system but now I'm not entirely sure.


Realistically mining will almost always be the ones finding these, but I don't think that's a problem. There are way more miners than archeologists plus miners have (at least currently) better gear and mobility. If the anomaly scanner things picks up some dungeons by picking up an item in there, that will sometimes make archeology find it. Otherwise pretty much never I think. Again, not really an issue I feel like.

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If a miner acts like an idiot then they act like an idiot. there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop a miner from being a fool mechanically unless you implement ridiculous "fixes" like mysteriously unreadable pill bottles on CM. It is 100% and completely acceptable OOC for a miner to go into a ruin and go rambo as long as it makes sense for that character to do so. It's called roleplay, we're not goonstation.

We have rules determining what is and is not proper or believable conduct for a character. Rambo Miners are not believable or proper. This suggestion does not add anything for mining without suspending realism for the sake of gameplay, when alternatively, chance-spawning crashed shuttles or other such things would be more appropriate without making the game even more arcadey.

 

I've repeated this several times to several people who brought up the same depressing point; which is something along the likes of "Miners are selfish/dumb this is bad for those poor poor miners, science is smart make them involved instead :("

Miners are not security, they are not police, they are not ERT, they are not soldiers (background nonwithstanding, still unacceptable in the eyes of staff handling foolhardy players who claim having a Military background justifies irregular and valid-ish behavior). Science should handle ruins and anomalies, not untrained Miners. People with Masters degrees and Doctorates should handle ancient obviously-man-or-sentient-made constructs, not 19 year old high school graduates that had a four week course in EVA training, and the extent of their job is cutting ore out of rock.

 

And I'll keep repeating the point: "Do it yourself, Science." If you want to go find ancient ruins, crashed ships, or other things? Go Xenoarch. Get yourself an upgraded kinetic accelerator. Go find them with a small team if you want. There is nothing stopping you from finding this ruins before the miners do.

Good. Miners can still find ruins though. Doesn't mean they should storm in, whatsoever. Science shouldn't even be storming anything either. That's why we have a Security department. With actual weapons and voidsuits.

 

I'm just going to start ignoring bad posts that paint miners in a negative light. Honestly I prefer posts that just saying "-1 retard addon" because it's faster to read and doesn't contain a very depressing viewpoint of our community.

Bad idea. Ignoring valid criticism is not wise when it comes to a suggestion forum. Instead of ignoring 'bad posts', take what those players are saying into account.


I'll be very disappointed if this suggestion is accepted in its current form.

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