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Type: Languages

Describe this proposal in a single sentence (12 word maximum): I redid the human languages to be better. (https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Languages)

How will this be reflected on-station? New ~honorifics~ and example words if people really want to.

Does this faction/etc do anything not achieved by what already exists? N/A

Why should this be given to lore developers rather than remain player created lore? Because it's an improvement to stuff on the wiki.

Do you understand that if this is submitted, you are signing it away to the lore team, and that it's possible that it will change over time in ways that you may not forsee? Yes.

Long Description: I have this on a google doc, so I'm just gonna screenshot it and post it like that.

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i kind of regret this now but i'm committed

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lol here's the document https://docs.google.com/document/d/118fa7X-3WOi9KtHKrLvJgr3gRyHY7Zh6SeFGxO1yUPk/edit#heading=h.hbwyhz9fvuxm

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While the intent behind this lore suggestion is very admirable, I don't feel that conlangs are what our lore needs. Implementing these in-game would be basically impossible (since languages use randomized syllables), and as such would cause a rift between lore and mechanics. I also don't get why every single language needs honorifics, especially stuff like Freespeak which is derived from languages that all lack honorifics, and TCB, which is the "default" language and shouldn't require looking stuff up on the wiki? 

While the argument can be made that dreg and suit slang are pretty much alike to this, and are very loved and used aspects of lore, I don't feel these are comparable. Firstly, I don't think there will be a situation where these are appropriate to use on-station - even being a non-native English speaker myself, I haven't ever felt the need to say the things in my native language instead of explaining what I mean in English (aside from memes, of course). Secondly, dreg and suit slang are already in TCB, and dreg culture, for example, is all about twisting the norms and such - including linguistical ones.

What I propose instead is to add flavor to languages in other ways. Introduce untranslateable concepts (like German schadenfreude, for example, but something different - and for our lore) that are used as-is in TCB. Add more faction-specific slang. Use languages more creatively while deciding which language a location speaks. I do agree that there is linguistic goodness to be had with lore, but describing the exact structure of languages and constructing phrases as if we're supposed to make short X-to-TCB dictionaries for everything is just not the way to go about it.

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-1. Languages need less bloat, not more. 400 years ago we still spoke modern English, there is no reason to believe 400 years in the future we would have even 25% of the linguistic differences we have in game, especially considering the evolution of language slows down as mass communication develops. 

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17 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

Implementing these in-game would be basically impossible (since languages use randomized syllables), and as such would cause a rift between lore and mechanics.

The languages in game just serve as gibberish, so I don't see how this is really a problem.

 

18 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

I also don't get why every single language needs honorifics, especially stuff like Freespeak which is derived from languages that all lack honorifics

Almost every single language has honorifics. Mr., Dr., -san, -sama, hyung, noona, -ji, -rao, etc. etc.

 

22 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

and TCB, which is the "default" language and shouldn't require looking stuff up on the wiki? 

I made sure to state that not using honorifics in TCB was a perfectly normal thing to do.

 

23 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

 Firstly, I don't think there will be a situation where these are appropriate to use on-station - even being a non-native English speaker myself, I haven't ever felt the need to say the things in my native language instead of explaining what I mean in English (aside from memes, of course).

People can speak in other languages, plus some might just perfer using their native language's honorifics because its more natural for them.

 

25 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

Introduce untranslateable concepts (like German schadenfreude, for example, but something different - and for our lore) that are used as-is in TCB.

I like the idea of that. I'm a fan of komorebi and l’appel du vide myself.

 

28 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

Add more faction-specific slang.

I have an old document I was working on from November that does that. I was going to finish it sometime soon.

 

19 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

Languages need less bloat, not more.

I'd like for you to point out the current "bloat" we have for languages. 

 

20 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

400 years ago we still spoke modern English

No we didn't.

 

23 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

there is no reason to believe 400 years in the future we would have even 25% of the linguistic differences we have in game, especially considering the evolution of language slows down as mass communication develops. 

We're in space where hundreds of colonies were colonized by dozens of countires with their own unique languages, which leads to a lot of unique languages and dialects. Freespeak is literally a language based on dozens of people with different languages trying to communicate and it just became popular. Also, we've had mass communication for about 20 years. You can't make a prediction like that based on the short timespan we've had it. 

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33 minutes ago, SamansaChan said:

I'd like for you to point out the current "bloat" we have for languages. 

Tradeband, absolutely. I'm thinking of making a PR to remove it, actually, so we can have a Dominian language instead or something.

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9 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

Tradeband, absolutely. I'm thinking of making a PR to remove it, actually, so we can have a Dominian language instead or something.

noooooooo.

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14 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

Tradeband, absolutely. I'm thinking of making a PR to remove it, actually, so we can have a Dominian language instead or something.

Tradeband isn't entirely useless, but I don't think a Dominian language would be better.

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Posted (edited)

Tradeband and gutter represent class divisions rather than ethnic division which is the preferred route.

 

That said they are still the languages of certain groups. Martians, etc.

Will address more later .

Edited by Senpai Jackboot

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Posted (edited)

Yes we did. I have a degree in English, thank you. Modern English started in the 1500s. 

Edit, now that I’m home from work and have time:

A quick google will confirm what I just said if you’re interested in learning instead of going “nuh uh”.

I say we already have too much language bloat because over time, with mass communication, languages become increasingly homogenous- we lose one every few years. We currently have three main human languages, most humans speak at least one- English, Spanish, or mandarin. Hindi is in there too but it’s complicated, it’s still fragmented in a ton of little regional pieces. 

Even though our setting is 400 years in the future, we have 4 main human languages. From a linguistic perspective, this makes no sense. From a lore perspective, as jackboot pointed out, it’s used to show class differences and culture differences. It is a little ridiculously silly that they are wholly different languages than we currently speak, but, well, the alternative is coding in google translate and fuck that. That is why I say we already have language bloat. It serves a purpose but anything more would be unrealistic and definitely be overkill. 

Edited by Resilynn

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I think its an impossible task to enforce/teach the honorifics as well. The system is in depth but i for one tried to casually recall the honorifics and got a failing grade. I don't think it's at all reasonable to put players up to the task as an enforcement thing. Tau ceti basic, as esperanto lorewise, is just spoken with the mannerisms of the player and character with the honorifics we use today.

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Posted (edited)

Let me go down the list one by one:

Tau Ceti Basic is the only language to which the "Modern English" argument could apply since it's said to be "Evolved Esperanto". Since as we know, Esperanto is a constructed language.

Sol Common is a combination of English and Chinese, this already is a bit of a stretch and a clear indication someone long ago said "Let's combine the two most spoken languages and say that's what people speak in the future". Modern English has not been fused with a different language, however, dialects have already evolved from it. Examples being American English, African-American Vernacular English or Scottish English.

Tradeband is, weird, while a combination of Romance languages isn't far stretched you have to remind yourself that these languages include: Italian, Spanish, French, Romanian and Portuguese. Mix that along with Latin to give it a bit of a bigger punch and frankly, what you would see would be probably completely unrecognizable from what we read today. With the exception being a few words all of the languages share. (Also did you ever see how French count?)

Lastly Freespeak, this one makes the least sense to me. Just read these definitions:
Creole: "A dialect formed from two languages which have developed from a pidgin to become a first language."
Pidgin: "A simplified form of speech that is usually a mixture of two or more languages, has a rudimentary grammar and vocabulary, is used for communication between groups speaking different languages, and is not spoken as a first or native language."

Neither of those is a language, does this imply that gutter has by some unholy providence become a combination of ALL languages that the Martian colonists spoke with? Or is it just two major ones? Is it also English and Mandarin?

In the end, all of these languages ALREADY existed. All this does really is an attempt to explain their function which seems to mostly fall through since this isn't how it works, in-game, at all. Ultimately it's a cool idea but unless you can write out the entire language and somehow import it into the game, it won't really work since there is no insensitive to learning these dialects.
We can take a lesson from one of the most famous writers, Tolkien. People won't learn a language, that has no culture behind it which is why when he created the entire Elven language, he also punctuated it by creating books upon books of culture and history for that language.
This is why people don't mind learning the dreg slang, because it has a history and culture behind it.

Ultimately it was a very valiant effort and I believe that if pointed in the right direction this could be implemented, just shorter and dealing with different subjects than trying to define an entire made up language.

 

Edited by Coalf

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8 hours ago, Coalf said:

Sol Common is a combination of English and Chinese, this already is a bit of a stretch and a clear indication someone long ago said "Let's combine the two most spoken languages and say that's what people speak in the future". Modern English has not been fused with a different language, however, dialects have already evolved from it. Examples being American English, African-American Vernacular English or Scottish English.

Sol Common isn't part English. I think it used to be, but I have no idea when it was changed to just Mandarin. I know both Senior and I treated it as a mix between Mandarin, Japanese, and Korean. (I think he did, at least).

 

8 hours ago, Coalf said:

Lastly Freespeak, this one makes the least sense to me. Just read these definitions:
Creole: "A dialect formed from two languages which have developed from a pidgin to become a first language."
Pidgin: "A simplified form of speech that is usually a mixture of two or more languages, has a rudimentary grammar and vocabulary, is used for communication between groups speaking different languages, and is not spoken as a first or native language."

Neither of those is a language, does this imply that gutter has by some unholy providence become a combination of ALL languages that the Martian colonists spoke with? Or is it just two major ones? Is it also English and Mandarin?

I honestly have no idea what the hell Freespeak is either. I mixed Hindi, Portugese, and something else I forgot (oops) for the example stuff. From the current languages page:

"A language of renegades and frontiersmen descending from various languages from Earth like Hindi combined into a multi-rooted jumble that sounds incoherent or even barbarian to non-native speakers. This language is the only common cultural identity for humans in the frontier. Speaking this language in itself boldly declares the speaker a free spirit. Often called 'Gutter' by Alliance citizens. It was Recognized by Sol Alliance as a spoken language in 2321. Considered a 'rough, informal' language, Freespeak is believed to have evolved in Martian slums, quickly spreading throughout the Galaxy. It is prominent in working class settlements across human space leading it to be the most common language in the frontier and second most common in the outer rim of known space. It is one of the few frontier cultural identity pieces."

Also as a sidenote we probably shouldn't call languages barbaric. 

8 hours ago, Coalf said:

In the end, all of these languages ALREADY existed. All this does really is an attempt to explain their function which seems to mostly fall through since this isn't how it works, in-game, at all. Ultimately it's a cool idea but unless you can write out the entire language and somehow import it into the game, it won't really work since there is no insensitive to learning these dialects.
We can take a lesson from one of the most famous writers, Tolkien. People won't learn a language, that has no culture behind it which is why when he created the entire Elven language, he also punctuated it by creating books upon books of culture and history for that language.
This is why people don't mind learning the dreg slang, because it has a history and culture behind it.

Ultimately it was a very valiant effort and I believe that if pointed in the right direction this could be implemented, just shorter and dealing with different subjects than trying to define an entire made up language.

My goal doing this was to give humans a bit more culture and make them less... bland, I guess. Also again I don't see the problem with the language mechanics and lore not tying together. It's sort of an acceptable loss to me.

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Consider this application in processing while I consider what parts of this should be added or not added.

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On 19/06/2019 at 20:43, SamansaChan said:

My goal doing this was to give humans a bit more culture and make them less... bland, I guess. Also again I don't see the problem with the language mechanics and lore not tying together. It's sort of an acceptable loss to me.

That's an unacceptable loss, specially for new additions. Lore going off to do "It's own thing" when compared to game play will only perpetuate the ever present schism between lore and game play. Which only leads to the lore devs, when they try to implement a follow-up into the game, getting major back lash because the actual players had no fucking idea that some article on some hidden wiki page explained a point that's now being turned into a huge deal (see: Akutha, Unathi arcs before that, probably a whole slew of shit I'm missing).

What's worse, you're implementing de-facto policy with this. "Learn these if you want to roleplay knowing the language properly, and no, the mechanics that are meant to represent this are not sufficient."

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4 hours ago, Skull132 said:

What's worse, you're implementing de-facto policy with this. "Learn these if you want to roleplay knowing the language properly, and no, the mechanics that are meant to represent this are not sufficient."

Again, honorifics aren't mandatory.

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3 hours ago, SamansaChan said:

Again, honorifics aren't mandatory.

Hence my usage of the phrase "de facto". The situation you propose is one where the limited few who actually bother reading the expansive wiki entry can play the game according to a rule set not referenced nor represented in game. And from there on, they can reasonably develop expectations that everyone read this and adhere to this. Despite this not being represented or even going against the mechanics in game.

Ultimately, languages are a very overt mechanic of the game. They are very prominent and visible when used, and they are used with regularity. As such, it is not acceptable to completely desync them from the lore that they are meant to represent. This is not lore you can faun over and write for the sake of the legitimately compelled without any adverse effects.

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After talking with Mofo and others, I'm going to deny this lore canonization app. To echo what some have already said, changes in the most used languages in-game without any actual mechanics changes will only serve to segregate the player-base between the have-reads and haven't-reads. Humans are not a whitelisted species and this is reflected in the knowledge required to play them: nearly none. The language origins and syllables for the human languages are under review, however. 

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2 hours ago, Pegasus said:

The language origins and syllables for the human languages are under review, however. 

@Pegasus If you want, I can redo the syllable list to better fit the example words.

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