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Nantei

Let IPC's do Bystander CPR

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So Bystander CPR has become increasingly popular nowadays because you don't have to do rescue breathing, or know the complex specifics of when rescue breathing is and is not beneficial. Basically it's perfect for people who are not trained medical professionals. Currently we have it so everyone knows rescue breathing CPR. Sure, that's fine, but synthetics are completely unable to do any CPR, which makes about zero sense. Not all synthetic models would be able to 'breath' air into someones' lungs, but all of them would be able to compress the heart to stimulate blood flow. And bystander CPR is still always preferable to no CPR. It's pretty common for a lot of our synthetic code to be clearly outdated, such as synthetics being unable to kick or stomp until Geeves added it—Thanks Geeves.

Mechanically speaking, CPR isn't particularly great, and I see no real reason to deny synths having a mechanically weaker version of it, although I honestly wouldn't mind including it as is and removing the breath flavor from CPR in general, as this would be the much easier change.

TL;DR: Lots of modern day CPR involves no rescue breaths, and rescue breaths are the only logical reason synths wouldn't be able to do CPR. Let Robofriend help, they're trying their best.

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I can see your heart is probably in the right place here, as loathe as I am to add any features to synthetics, because I hate them.

However, I'm curious how often you think CPR actually happens? I admit I don't play as much as most people or really handle Medical, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone intentionally perform CPR rather than just grabbing someone on a roller table and rushing them to a cryotube. Or injecting them with drugs that will keep them alive.

Edited by Kaed
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6 minutes ago, Kaed said:

I can see your heart is probably in the right place here, as loathe as I am to add any features to synthetics, because I hate them.

However, I'm curious how often you think CPR actually happens? I admit I don't play as much as most people or really handle Medical, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone intentionally perform CPR rather than just grabbing someone on a roller table and rushing them to a cryotube. Or injecting them with drugs that will keep them alive.

Typically I- as Sec- have to do CPR while waiting for EMTs to arrive. Now, mind you this is also usually after a massive firefight and I'm slowly bleeding out as well. The person is usually on the brink of death, and giving them CPR is keeping the white from engulfing them. I'm also usually on the receiving end and can see the effects CPR give. It's appreciated, and IPCs- one would assume- would be able to optimize bystander CPR more than any human, since IPCs won't be stressing out or getting tired.

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4 hours ago, Kaed said:

I can see your heart is probably in the right place here, as loathe as I am to add any features to synthetics, because I hate them.

However, I'm curious how often you think CPR actually happens? I admit I don't play as much as most people or really handle Medical, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone intentionally perform CPR rather than just grabbing someone on a roller table and rushing them to a cryotube. Or injecting them with drugs that will keep them alive.

That's actually exactly why I suggested bystander CPR. Because most medical personnel won't be doing CPR. It's usually done by, well, bystanders, who don't have professional medical training.

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1 hour ago, Nantei said:

That's actually exactly why I suggested bystander CPR. Because most medical personnel won't be doing CPR. It's usually done by, well, bystanders, who don't have professional medical training.

My major concern, aesthetically and mechanically, is that CPR is not a universal knowledge.  In fact, I have heard of many people who think they know CPR based on vague notions without training and actually end up hurting or killing the people they are trying to save.  You are explicitly wanting this for use by non-medical personnel, which means that unless Nanotrasen has CPR training as a job requirement, it can't just be a universally available mechanic.

Thus, I would like CPR, bystander or not, to be something your character has to know to perform correctly.  It doesn't even necessarily need to be something in character select, but perhaps an option somehow (being in disarm intent instead of help?) for people to mechanically do bad CPR, either maliciously or through trying to roleplay incompetency.

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Workplaces like this almost always mandate a CPR class, as a general note. Also many players already do CPR, I don't see this as unique to this suggestion. If someone for some reason thinks their character shouldn't have basic first aid training then they can not have basic first aid training. An IPC would almost certainly have been given basic first aid training.

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30 minutes ago, Nantei said:

Workplaces like this almost always mandate a CPR class, as a general note. Also many players already do CPR, I don't see this as unique to this suggestion. If someone for some reason thinks their character shouldn't have basic first aid training then they can not have basic first aid training. An IPC would almost certainly have been given basic first aid training.

I don't know much about medical treatments IRL, but my vague knowledge is that CPR and basic first aid are in fact separate trainings and certifications, and my brief google search indicates I am correct in this.  Basic first aid is a yes, but CPR is a much more specialized form of first response emergency medical treatment, and I don't see it being a default for everyone.  Even IPCs wouldn' t be universal, some models are not designed to perform medical treatments - an industrial frame might, for instance, crush your chest by accident.

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CPR certification takes quite literally about thirty minutes. It's not a very difficult procedure, and this is for rescue breathing courses, not bystander CPR which is even more simple. It's included in most first aid courses. This would be a concern with the current mechanics, not related to IPC's or this suggestion IMO.

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27 minutes ago, Nantei said:

CPR certification takes quite literally about thirty minutes. It's not a very difficult procedure, and this is for rescue breathing courses, not bystander CPR which is even more simple. It's included in most first aid courses. This would be a concern with the current mechanics, not related to IPC's or this suggestion IMO.

The issue lay that the CPR mechanic is underused, but may be coded in bad way as really old code usually is. There could very well be a justification for giving IPC's this ability, but sidesteping that reasoning entirely, would the time investment given the "lesser" form of CPR you suggest be worth it? I'm not a coder, so I cannot speak for its complexity, but I would say its not given how little the mechanic sees use in the first place. Were we to give CPR to IPC's I would just give them the full version. 

Edited by Bygonehero
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3 minutes ago, Bygonehero said:

The issue lay that the CPR mechanic is underused, but may be coded bad way. There could very well be a justification for giving IPC's this ability, but sidesteping that reasoning entirely, would the time investment given the "lesser" form of CPR you suggest be worth it? I'm not a coder, so I cannot speak for its complexity, but I would say its not given how little the mechanic sees use in the first place. Were we to give CPR to IPC's I would just give them the full version. 

Ideally we'd remove the breathing flavor, and mask restriction flag. Then Vaurca would also be able to do CPR without suffocating.

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4 minutes ago, Nantei said:

Ideally we'd remove the breathing flavor, and mask restriction flag. Then Vaurca would also be able to do CPR without suffocating.

what if they are wearing something that cannot be reasonably compressed? Like a RIG or a big Space Suit?

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2 hours ago, Bygonehero said:

what if they are wearing something that cannot be reasonably compressed? Like a RIG or a big Space Suit?

You can add flags for that pretty easily as far as I know. Plus then rescue breathing probably wouldn't work either.

Doing some cursory research, it seems CPR is very difficult with any sort of armor due to plating, so we could just probably reuse the flags that injections use.

Edited by Nantei
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Considering the breaths are no longer even taught/used in my country (or I believe there's one breath at the start?), I believe CPR itself needs an entire overhaul. It should simply be based on chest compressions over breaths. It isn't so much a less effective way to save someone, nowadays it is the way to save someone.

I must admit when I worked medical as an Offworlder I was never able to successfully use CPR but maybe that's just me being bad at the game. 

In the case of denying it to IPCs, I see no reason for it from an IC standpoint. Considering an IPC might be a service bot, why not give them the education to ultimately save their coworkers/owners in times of crisis?  (keeping those pesky organics alive)

Edited by niennab
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15 minutes ago, niennab said:

I must admit when I worked medical as an Offworlder I was never able to successfully use CPR but maybe that's just me being bad at the game. 

If you have anything in your mask slot, you cannot do CPR.

I support the suggestion for the un-breathing toons to be able to aid in some way, its sensical and life-saving.

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16 minutes ago, niennab said:

I must admit when I worked medical as an Offworlder I was never able to successfully use CPR but maybe that's just me being bad at the game. 

iirc CPR both requires timing (once per 7 seconds last I remember but spamming it had no problem), and it won't actually fix the problem killing them as much as reduce rising oxygen damage from crit.

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3 minutes ago, Azande said:

where I come from, CPR is taught in high school and everyone knows how to do it...

The only thing I had learned in school was the Heimlich maneuver. CPR isn't universal, and as for the real world you need a Red Cross CPR certification (that requires renewal/exact same case for first aid certification, tho I think one has a more regular renewal schedule) so a school education wouldn't cut it.

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1 minute ago, Carver said:

The only thing I had learned in school was the Heimlich maneuver. CPR isn't universal, and as for the real world you need a Red Cross CPR certification (that requires renewal/exact same case for first aid certification, tho I think one has a more regular renewal schedule) so a school education wouldn't cut it.

In the real world, at least in Canada - if you try to do CPR and end up hurting the person, you cannot be held responsible at all. None of these IRL or IC regulations actually make any sense in an argument about IPCs mechanically being able to do chest compression... Every character on board is able to do them, we have never restricted skills mechanically.

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Popping in to say that I think the beeping boyes should be given this, yes. At my place of work (which is an office), CPR and first aid are actually mandatory and we have employees in-house whose job is, on top of regular administrative-related things, is training new employees and refreshing current employees on a regular basis. It seems reasonable that NanoTrasen would also offer this.

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2 minutes ago, Azande said:

In the real world, at least in Canada - if you try to do CPR and end up hurting the person, you cannot be held responsible at all. None of these IRL or IC regulations actually make any sense in an argument about IPCs mechanically being able to do chest compression... Every character on board is able to do them, we have never restricted skills mechanically.

The argument is that it's not a universal education regardless, so bringing up 'my school taught me in X and everyone knows how to do it' isn't valuable. Them being able to do it mechanically, sure, implying everyone would know how to do it, extremely unlikely.

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7 minutes ago, Carver said:

The argument is that it's not a universal education regardless, so bringing up 'my school taught me in X and everyone knows how to do it' isn't valuable. Them being able to do it mechanically, sure, implying everyone would know how to do it, extremely unlikely.

Quite literally everyone in my workplace is mandated to be First Aid and CPR certified. It's very common for any job that takes place in hazardous areas, which I would definitely include the Aurora in. Thus it isn't unreasonable to assume that 99% of people on the Aurora probably know CPR. Same way you probably know how to put on a soft suit.

Edited by Nantei
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Tell that to the 40% of the crew who act clueless in regard to using softsuits. OP is still a good change but as much as everyone knowing first aid to some extent makes sense, I guarantee someone will complain about powergaming when Johnny Assistant patches an injury. There will always be people who go 'I don't know that!' or question why others do.

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Majority of Chest compressions done outside of a healthcare setting are done without rescue breaths, In a hospital or EMS setting it is almost always done with a ventilator or breath mask so I don't even think rescue breaths need to stay in game. CPR is very simple to teach and learn, about 30 minutes as others have said, even less if rescue breaths don't need to be taught which is probably the case for lay NT employees. An IPC has no reason to not be able to do it, if it's capable of locating the proper position on the sternum and can push something 2 inches away from it, it would be capable of CPR. As for the 40% of crew acting like they can't operate a softsuit I think we need a wiki page explaining the bear minimum of crew training but that's for another suggestion.

Edited by JMJ_99
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