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Remove Gank

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2 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

Gank is already against the rules.

Being against the rules does not mean it never happens. I can tell you it happens quite a bit judging just from my short stint as mod. People breaking gank rules is fairly common.

Edited by Nantei

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6 hours ago, Nantei said:

Being against the rules does not mean it never happens. I can tell you it happens quite a bit judging just from my short stint as mod. People breaking gank rules is fairly common.

Most rules exist because someone did something that needed to be regulated.

 

Case and point, ganking.

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14 hours ago, Nantei said:

Problem is that anything like this is also going to be good for killing people quickly. It's actually better at killing a single person than the revolver is, and we all know how nasty the revolver is.

To give you an example as to why: The Parapen is regularly used on Baystation explicitly to kill people. I am just glad it hasn't caught on here, hopefully due to our ganking rules discouraging it.

The parapen is cheaper on bay iirc, and you can even get a shit ton of them if RNGesus is in your favor and decides to make Parapen 30-70% off.

 

Besides this, the parapen is fine right now. One thing to remember is that it only PARALYZES, it does not sedate the target- meaning that they will be conscious of everything, just unable to move or fight back. Replacing it with Paxazide and something to down them won't do anything because while paxazide prevents your character mechanically from attacking and icly, from thinking of resorting to violence easily...a person under paxazide can still:

-Sedate you, as it doesn't count as harming

-Run away, and with more of a purpose since they don't need to worry about attacking you now

-Restrain you in any way that isn't physically harmful (so no dislocation, but handcuffs, cablecuffs, and straitjackets are still ok)

 

Sure, parapen can be an instant-win button, but you can only use it once and usually when people use a parapen, they won't buy another because they want to save TC. Traitors can make themselves decently-effective chloral-autoinjectors that function the same way and offer enough time for cuffs and radio removal and guess what, it costs no tc- just a quick hack into one of the chemistry labs (or two TC if you use 10k credits to buy yourself cartridges).

 

Anyways, we don't need to change parapen at all. If someone uses it to just walk up-stun-kill, you can ahelp that shit and it'll probably get sorted fast if it really was a walk up-stun-kill. I've found situations like these to be rare cases anyways, if someone wants to kill, they usually get other gear or don't consider the parapen because of its one-use property.

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I have a horrific memory in my mind that taints the parapen for me, so maybe I'm biased here - But long ago, elsewhere, I was - at random, parapenned, killed, and debrained. There was not an ounce of roleplay involved.

 

While this was a different server, I think there is nothing preventing the same from happening here. It is tremendously infuriating, being on the receiving end of an instastun. You want to kidnap someone, hold them at gunpoint and tell them they die if they scream. It works, I can assure you. Instastuns in general are terrible, and I see no reason why there should be an exception that allows the parapen to exist.

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Sleeptoxin takes a while to actually get the person asleep, giving them ample time to just scream "HURR DURR, BALD MAN DRUG MEEEEE!!!" and then sprint away. I think a change by itself is just unnecessary.

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5 hours ago, PoZe said:

We just replace zombiepowder and cryptobiolin with sleeptoxin

PR: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7420

Let me know if you want pen refillable.

This kinda defeats the whole purpose of the pen though, and sopo is garbage. You stab someone, they start yowling on the radio, punch you, shove you, run away and 1000% out you as an aggressor until... They succumb to sleep a whole minute after getting stabbed, and by then security will be at your location, stomping your face in.

And 10 units of sopo will only keep them out for a short duration. Ive had many instances in the past where Ive dosed someone with 10units of sopo to fix their lung. Wait for 20 years for them to fall asleep only to have them wake up as Im mending their bones/stitching them up.

I honestly think it should stay as is. It sees little action, its non-lethal potential for a stab and escape is unmatched any other.

And for the arguments of "But its only used for ganks and ezwins because Ive seen this 9/10 times", yeah, well, 9/10 times you hear about malf they've APC bombed the station, or shockbolted every airlock there is before siphoning the station and gone for the stealth nuke. You never hear about those good gimmicks, those amazing plays and clever uses of game mechanics. Because the people that mention this gets drowned out by people SCREECHING about the negative aspects of something.

If a change absolutely needs to be made, atleast put chloral in it.

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49 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

This kinda defeats the whole purpose of the pen though, and sopo is garbage. You stab someone, they start yowling on the radio, punch you, shove you, run away and 1000% out you as an aggressor until... They succumb to sleep a whole minute after getting stabbed, and by then security will be at your location, stomping your face in.

And 10 units of sopo will only keep them out for a short duration. Ive had many instances in the past where Ive dosed someone with 10units of sopo to fix their lung. Wait for 20 years for them to fall asleep only to have them wake up as Im mending their bones/stitching them up.

I honestly think it should stay as is. It sees little action, its non-lethal potential for a stab and escape is unmatched any other.

And for the arguments of "But its only used for ganks and ezwins because Ive seen this 9/10 times", yeah, well, 9/10 times you hear about malf they've APC bombed the station, or shockbolted every airlock there is before siphoning the station and gone for the stealth nuke. You never hear about those good gimmicks, those amazing plays and clever uses of game mechanics. Because the people that mention this gets drowned out by people SCREECHING about the negative aspects of something.

If a change absolutely needs to be made, atleast put chloral in it.

All of this. 

I don’t like anecdotal evidence, but since that’s all I have, I’ve been parapenned a good number of times and never ganked. One of my best victim-to-the-antags involved being paralyzed and desperately hoping my ally was going to take my side and save me. 

 

And you you know what was so cool about that?  I was awake. I was still a participant in whatever happened to me. I couldn’t move or speak but I was there, aware of everything that was said and all of the stakes. Sopor, and even chloral, remove that feature of the current paralysis pen. 

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Prate and Resi pretty much nailed it. Being aware but helpless is better than being asleep and helpless.

Also the PR doesn't seem to fix anything about it. It's still something people can gank with, just lets the victim scream "help maint."

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9 minutes ago, PoZe said:

Posted V2 PR: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7425
It implements what OP is about. AS in replacing parapen with kit of 4 different pens.

If I am correct, slime jelly is absurdly deadly and very ganky as a poison option. Even cyanide would leave more of a window for survival, and it's a 20 toxloss - 20 oxyloss per unit poison. Why not amatoxin or carpotoxin? Tricordrazine only for healing and only 10u hyperzine might be a bit underwhelming, and a pacifier pen being just a nerfed parapen is an interesting choice.

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I'm still strongly against removing parapens entirely.  Offer this as an alternative to parapens rather than removing it entirely.

It is extremely irritating to me when people ignore the general tone of a suggestion thread (things are fine, ahelp being ganked) in favor of laser sighting the part they want (replacing the pen with a suggested pen chem set). 

Actually, you know what. I'm going to go rework parapens right now.

Edited by Kaed

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1 hour ago, ChloralCocktails said:

If I am correct, slime jelly is absurdly deadly and very ganky as a poison option. Even cyanide would leave more of a window for survival, and it's a 20 toxloss - 20 oxyloss per unit poison. Why not amatoxin or carpotoxin? Tricordrazine only for healing and only 10u hyperzine might be a bit underwhelming, and a pacifier pen being just a nerfed parapen is an interesting choice.

I picked poison off the suggestions of players in chat. I am fine with tweaking any pens

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On 08/11/2019 at 20:47, Nantei said:

Being against the rules does not mean it never happens. I can tell you it happens quite a bit judging just from my short stint as mod. People breaking gank rules is fairly common.

Once upon a time, a long time ago, I was a Visitor. An AFK visitor - a Solarian, visitor. I had a small office on the surface, I was running paperwork for some registration thing I came up with. I went to the bathroom, you know?

 

While I was gone, someone came into the office and said "hello". No response, you know, I was AFK. I'd been AFK for a few minutes. This individual takes out an Energy Sword and cuts my head off and walks out. These things happen.

I immediately ahelped, got revived and that Traitor got a very nasty talking-to. It didn't really ruin my round, it barely took up any of my time.

The point I am making is that the system works just as much as it doesn't. If people abuse and gank and do kranky shit, they'll get clapped and smacked and beaten. Same deal for the parapen.

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On 15/11/2019 at 12:28, Brutishcrab51 said:

I immediately ahelped, got revived and that Traitor got a very nasty talking-to. It didn't really ruin my round, it barely took up any of my time.

Aheals for people who broke a rule to kill/hurt you are very rare. I would not expect such a thing from almost any other case. It's usually because it was a very obvious rulebreak, which is similarly not super common.

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It used to be more common when 'jumping the gun/gank on sight' types of gank itself was something that happened on a few-times-a-day basis, Nan. Either way I feel like the sleepy/para-pen should be worked out to only work through skin exposure. and if you try to go for the head it should print out a message.

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On 13/11/2019 at 00:57, DanseMacabre said:

I have a horrific memory in my mind that taints the parapen for me, so maybe I'm biased here - But long ago, elsewhere, I was - at random, parapenned, killed, and debrained. There was not an ounce of roleplay involved.

 

While this was a different server, I think there is nothing preventing the same from happening here. It is tremendously infuriating, being on the receiving end of an instastun. You want to kidnap someone, hold them at gunpoint and tell them they die if they scream. It works, I can assure you. Instastuns in general are terrible, and I see no reason why there should be an exception that allows the parapen to exist.

Remember when I said I hadn't been ganked on Aurora yet? 

Well. I have been. With a parapen.

They have not gotten any better. They are still just as bad.

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I do not see the point in this at all. Staff deal with the issue just fine. So what if you 'lost' the game due to a tool, if I die to a laser rifle I am not going to remove laser rifle in favor of 4 different kinds of laser weapons, each with different effects but each significantly weaker than the old one.

What I am saying is, antags need powerful tools to counteract NT's natural advantage of mass coordination. I love stealth tools like this, and removing it jsut because the guy didnt just chop your head off with a energy sword is silly. 

These kinds of PRs will simply encourage ganking, instead of dealing with this 'issue', as it removes the antag's ability to go silent instead of guns blazing like 99% already do.

-1 

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UPDATE:
No longer we replace paralysis pen. Kaed will rebalance it in their PR.

 

My PR now adds these 4 special pens suggested by OP. They will come in a kit equal to parapen cost

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6 hours ago, ben10083 said:

These kinds of PRs will simply encourage ganking, instead of dealing with this 'issue', as it removes the antag's ability to go silent instead of guns blazing like 99% already do.

Er. Excuse me, what? I am baffled to how an antag going guns blazing is going to be ganking? If there's an active shooter, you walk near the active shooter, and they shoot you, it's not really ganking. Either way I don't see any connection between silent/loud and ganking. If anything I would argue silent would be WAY more likely for ganking, look at changelings. 

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5 hours ago, Nantei said:

Er. Excuse me, what? I am baffled to how an antag going guns blazing is going to be ganking? If there's an active shooter, you walk near the active shooter, and they shoot you, it's not really ganking. Either way I don't see any connection between silent/loud and ganking. If anything I would argue silent would be WAY more likely for ganking, look at changelings. 

They are talking about that taking away options to silently capture someone will lead to more cases of people walking up and shooting people/holding people at gunpoint with no preamble.

I can't say I entirely agree with that pessimistic view point of people's behavior, but I can understand their train of logic there.

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12 hours ago, Kaed said:

They are talking about that taking away options to silently capture someone will lead to more cases of people walking up and shooting people/holding people at gunpoint with no preamble.

Basically this. I do not see the logic behind removing silent ways to capture someone, especially considering some projects on this forum to make the parapen more "friendly" to their target. How is the parapen deserving of getting gutted into a shadow of its former self, especially considering other items in the traitor's arsenal

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I still stand by removal of the base pen, there should remain the energy crossbow for disabling people silently and above all noticeably via sensors.

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1 hour ago, Carver said:

I still stand by removal of the base pen, there should remain the energy crossbow for disabling people silently and above all noticeably via sensors.

What is the key difference between a crossbow and a pen, where the pen is seen as overpowered?

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40 minutes ago, ben10083 said:

What is the key difference between a crossbow and a pen, where the pen is seen as overpowered?

Pros:

  • Ranged
  • Recharges
  • Causes toxin damage (building up if used repeatedly)

Cons:

  • Harder to conceal
  • Costs more
  • Causes liver damage (if used repeatedly)

Crossbow kidnappings generally require more forethought, and a fair dedication of telecrystals. Parapen kidnappings are, like their item, cheap disposable affairs.

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