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DanseMacabre

Revert Garnascus' ruling on roundstart borer hosts.

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I'm going to break down the many issues I have with this announcement and with bughunt as a whole. 

 

1. Because being a round-start borer host is not opt-in, and is instead something that is forced upon the player, there is absolutely no way around it: Because of Garnascus' feelings on the matter, you can be at round start forced to essentially be an antagonist, with no preferences enabled - because of this ruling, the player is railroaded into a specific playstyle with no alternative. 

 

2. The second sentence is self-contradictory. Once you are forced, at round start, to be a borer host - you do not have free will. You cannot act how your character would act in this situation. Garnascus says that you are an individual free to act and think as they wish, but at the same time says you actually do NOT have free will, as you are forced to collaborate with your brain parasite - this is continued into the second sentence. 

 

3. Garnascus claims that to act in a realistic, reasonable way is actually to be a bad player. This is me paraphrasing, mind - but he said that to play in any other way than to collaborate is to be a shitter. This is iterated much more politely in the next sentence - Garnascus is saying that to resist the brain parasite is extremely bad faith - in spite of the fact that we are expected to play sane and reasonable characters. This is in direct conflict with the rules, specifically creating and roleplaying characters.

 

All in all, I think this ruling is perhaps one of the rulings most contrary to Aurora's goal of being a heavy roleplay server. It denies the player agency to roleplay properly - borers are currently the only conversion antagonist that you cannot resist. Even cult presents the option of "JOIN OR DIE" - borer should too. 

Here's my counter-proposal: 

1. Make it so round-start borer hosts MUST enable borer (or more ideally, a new preference would be made for borer host) as an antagonist preference in order to be one. Do NOT force it on random players, then tell them they may not resist this infection. 

 

2. Make it so people can resist infection if they so please. Even if it means destroying the host's brain and the borer takes over completely, the choice should be present.

 

3. Keep the ruling that round-start hosts must not resist their borers, IF the first stipulation is put into place.

 

 

I will not claim to like bughunt. I think it is one of the worst gamemodes Aurora has, at the moment. I think cortical borers are a deeply flawed antagonist. Apologies to the people who worked on them, but that is how I feel. However, that aside, I am addressing an OOC rule, not the game mechanics themselves.

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Just going to mentione regarding item 1: That's already been confirmed as a bug and is being worked on to be fixed so that you have to have borer prefs on to become a host, so this point won't be a factor following that update.

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1 minute ago, SierraKomodo said:

Just going to mentione regarding item 1: That's already been confirmed as a bug and is being worked on to be fixed so that you have to have borer prefs on to become a host, so this point won't be a factor following that update.

Right now this bug is being treated as a feature, for all intents and purposes. People should not be forced to act a certain way because of a bug.

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5 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

Right now this bug is being treated as a feature, for all intents and purposes. People should not be forced to act a certain way because of a bug.

just ahelp. It can be removed.

 

Otherwise, how does it make sense of a bug, that tells you what to do, and to resist its every word till it kills you? It's rather shit.

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I'm going to be very short on this matter.

I've told Matt to "unconfirm" it as a bug. The antagonist is the borer. The borer selection adheres to default rules established by our gameplay model, so everything Works As Intended:tm:.

The fact that you can spawn with a brain slug in your head at round start is the consequence of you playing on a server that has antagonists enabled. Expect antagonists to fuck with you. A traitor can pull you up within the first 5 minutes of the round with a gun if he wants you, so why shouldn't a borer be allowed to inhabit your skull? It's one of the many punches you roll with for that round. And let me remind you, that rolling with the punches is the entire point of RP.

There should be no ahelping of borers for removal. Should you also ahelp cultists that want to convert you? Fuck that. Only if the antagonists is a grade A 'tard should you ahelp them (like if the borer instanoms your brain 4noraisins). Otherwise, you should be rolling with the punches and playing along in a goodhearted manner.

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agreed as above. don't be shitters to borers and there will be less shitter borers. please and thank you

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I mean, by multiple prior rulings both old and very recent, I can also just cryo if I start with a borer.

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To be fair, a better analogy for cultists would be an admin ruling that it's okay for cultists to stun and instantly convert a crewmember next to them at round start.

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1 minute ago, Skull132 said:

I'm going to be very short on this matter.

I've told Matt to "unconfirm" it as a bug. The antagonist is the borer. The borer selection adheres to default rules established by our gameplay model, so everything Works As Intended:tm:.

The fact that you can spawn with a brain slug in your head at round start is the consequence of you playing on a server that has antagonists enabled. Expect antagonists to fuck with you. A traitor can pull you up within the first 5 minutes of the round with a gun if he wants you, so why shouldn't a borer be allowed to inhabit your skull? It's one of the many punches you roll with for that round. And let me remind you, that rolling with the punches is the entire point of RP.

There should be no ahelping of borers for removal. Should you also ahelp cultists that want to convert you? Fuck that. Only if the antagonists is a grade A 'tard should you ahelp them (like if the borer instanoms your brain 4noraisins). Otherwise, you should be rolling with the punches and playing along in a goodhearted manner.

I think this is a terrible idea. A player should not be forced to sit through an experience they do not enjoy. You are making that happen. Where is the line drawn? Will I be banned for going to cyro when I discover the roundtype is borer?

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I don't think people should be forced into playing borer host. At least with cult, you have the option of dying/being constructed if you don't want to play regular cult.

 

For borer, there is no such option. Whilst I had an absolute blast in my last borer round (as a host), the rounds I've tried before that was garbo. Was was a friend of mine's borer - in the same round - instantly going full retard and then ghosting, which left her stuck until an admin removed it. 

 

There should always be some choice over how you wanna play your round.

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Nothing's stopping you from going "LOOC: Not feeling too hot, gonna sit this round out." Does it suck for both parties? Yep.

But literally nothing is stopping you.

This is a problem for the borer as much as the host. A host that will cryo in five minutes when you join is going to fuck you as much as it'll fuck them by being randomly selected.

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I hate the idea of having a brain-eating parasite in my head at round start when I don't have borer even ticked on. It's like getting randomly hit in the head with a sword, then having the sword man tell me I shouldn't live next to a HEMA club if I don't want to randomly get hit in the head with a sword while walking to work. Just make a role for borer host before this gets added to the secret rotation, so we don't have random people start with a slug in their head that don't want a slug in their head. This is the best possible solution, as I can prevent myself from spawning with a slug in my head if I don't want it and can get the creature of my nightmares in my brain at round-start if I so desire to.

 

No other game mode forces you to be an antagonist in the manner of borer/bughunt/whathaveyou. I don't randomly end up as a cultist or changeling at round-start even though I have the option off, so why should this be any different?

 

 

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I've changed my tune here. We have opt-in for every other antag. I get being a thrall isn't really "being the antag" per se, however this is like in the first SECOND of the round an antag traitor immediately taking you hostage. Super lame and I'm 100% sure is ahelpable.

I'm ok getting antaged to death in an antag round, just not in the first five seconds UNLESS I've opted in for antag. We should have this be an opt-in thing or have the borers start outside of the body or something, anything that isn't a rando getting beaned instantly.

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Forcing people to endure it may also result in the most egregious failing of all. By demanding people comply with the borer, you may in fact be forcing them to break character for the sake of a round type. By that in itself, the round type is flawed and does not belong on an RP server.

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35 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

1. Because being a round-start borer host is not opt-in, and is instead something that is forced upon the player, there is absolutely no way around it: Because of Garnascus' feelings on the matter, you can be at round start forced to essentially be an antagonist, with no preferences enabled - because of this ruling, the player is railroaded into a specific playstyle with no alternative. 

 

I believe that this is simply how aurora should be. It is a consequence of playing on a server with antags enabled. I do not think it is healthy to allow for RP you can just opt out of. Instead of throwing our arms up and stonewalling things we should all be willing to roll with whatever happens under the rules with our characters. It creates a better game. Also before anyone brings up cult conversions i also dont think you should be able to resist those either. Its not relevant to this topic. Rev is a special case that relies on convincing people with words. Its not spooky mind control. 

38 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

The second sentence is self-contradictory

You're still your character except now you have a spooky brain slug in your head. Its not quite like being dominated by a vampire where you literally lose all sense of self and have to do what the dominate tells you to do. It is simultaneously possible to be under the controlling effects of a cortical borer and still be your character. 

40 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

Garnascus claims that to act in a realistic, reasonable way is actually to be a bad player.

Yes and i will stand by that. It creates a much healthier and fun round if every host goes "oh cool a chance to RP something new! Whats up brain slug?" instead of " ; THERES SOMETHING IN MY HEAD CONTROLLING ME AHHHHHHHHH". I do not really care if your character would genuinely scream over the radio about it. I am saying it would negatively impact the round to such an absurd degree that i am forbidding it. 

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1 minute ago, Garnascus said:

Yes and i will stand by that. It creates a much healthier and fun round if every host goes "oh cool a chance to RP something new! Whats up brain slug?" instead of " ; THERES SOMETHING IN MY HEAD CONTROLLING ME AHHHHHHHHH". I do not really care if your character would genuinely scream over the radio about it. I am saying it would negatively impact the round to such an absurd degree that i am forbidding it. 

Then it should not be forbidden to cryo and opt out of it. It's equivalent to having a Medical character start in Cargo and be expected to pretend that everything is fine and they were a cargo character all along.

If you wish to go this route, consider dropping the 'Heavy' from this:

Screenshot_6.png.91a90879072d19a5f7d03d943cbef80f.png

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2 minutes ago, Carver said:

Then it should not be forbidden to cryo and opt out of it

Thinking about it but my gut tells me "no". I would rather focus on building good relationships between the cortical borer and the host. Almost everyone is enjoying having a worm inside their head so i think currently its just people talking about it on discord.

4 minutes ago, Carver said:

If you wish to go this route, consider dropping the 'Heavy' from this:

No i do not think i will. I have heard your opinion i just disagree with it. This is what our heavy roleplay means. 

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1 minute ago, Garnascus said:

Thinking about it but my gut tells me "no". I would rather focus on building good relationships between the cortical borer and the host. Almost everyone is enjoying having a worm inside their head so i think currently its just people talking about it on discord.

No i do not think i will. I have heard your opinion i just disagree with it. This is what our heavy roleplay means. 

And unless antagonist whitelists were implemented, I do not trust the quality of the random shitheel selected as antag who'll inevitably try to spam taking over the body and cause brain damage as a result. If one is stuck with a brain pAI it should either be opt-in, or they choose whom it is, or even better- they don't start in a fucking host.

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I'm gonna add borer host as a pref or something and just be done with this. i can't be fucked to go on for 5 pages about why I think borer hosts shouldn't have a pref.

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Just now, Carver said:

And unless antagonist whitelists were implemented, I do not trust the quality of the random shitheel selected as antag who'll inevitably try to spam taking over the body and cause brain damage as a result. If one is stuck with a brain pAI it should either be opt-in, or they choose whom it is, or even better- they don't start in a fucking host.

I understand we have all had bad experiences with antags but i have to say from someone who deals with bwoinking people and teaching people how not to be shit... Its not as big of a problem as people make it out to be. TYPICALLY that shitheel you played with does that for one or two rounds and then he finally adjusts to our RP level and then hes fine from then on. We have a constant supply of new players progressing into seasoned players. 

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7 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

I understand we have all had bad experiences with antags but i have to say from someone who deals with bwoinking people and teaching people how not to be shit... Its not as big of a problem as people make it out to be. TYPICALLY that shitheel you played with does that for one or two rounds and then he finally adjusts to our RP level and then hes fine from then on. We have a constant supply of new players progressing into seasoned players. 

Yet for those one or two rounds he negatively impacts the experience of others, and in the case of the topic at-hand, can ruin the entire round of a single individual. If it's a bad round of any other antag type, you're free to cryo at any point. Yet this precise mode demands a reversal of multiple prior and recent rulings in regard to that? This mode demands the very first case of a player's agency in regard to all roundstart opt-ins to be disregarded? Every other roundstart (for clarification to avoid the cult comparison) role can be opted out of, job or antagonist. There is an option to return to the lobby if you don't get the job.

As others and myself have said:

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I've changed my tune here. We have opt-in for every other antag. I get being a thrall isn't really "being the antag" per se, however this is like in the first SECOND of the round an antag traitor immediately taking you hostage. Super lame and I'm 100% sure is ahelpable.

I'm ok getting antaged to death in an antag round, just not in the first five seconds UNLESS I've opted in for antag. We should have this be an opt-in thing or have the borers start outside of the body or something, anything that isn't a rando getting beaned instantly.

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No other game mode forces you to be an antagonist in the manner of borer/bughunt/whathaveyou. I don't randomly end up as a cultist or changeling at round-start even though I have the option off, so why should this be any different?

Quote

To be fair, a better analogy for cultists would be an admin ruling that it's okay for cultists to stun and instantly convert a crewmember next to them at round start.

By forcing players into such a role you negatively impact their experience in such a way that you'll end up with sour individuals who will undoubtedly act against the mode, passively or otherwise (and you can't do much about passive resistance as it's near impossible to discern).

Edited by Carver
Left out a word.

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I understand not wanting to be forced into the role of a host, but can I hear some reasons as to why you wouldn't want to?

As it stands right now, you can still just courtly apologize and tell them you'll cryo. Also, borers have a very certain method of acquiring a host, so frankly, round-start or five minutes, I don't really see that big of a difference. If you don't like borers, don't play it.

Edited by BoryaTheSlayer
Missed a word

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12 minutes ago, BoryaTheSlayer said:

I understand not wanting to be forced into the role of a host, but can I hear some reasons as to why you wouldn't want to?

As it stands right now, you can still just courtly apologize and tell them you'll cryo. Also, borers have a very certain method of acquiring a host, so frankly, round-start or five minutes, I don't really see that big of a difference. If you don't like borers, don't play it.

In the simplest answer, I don't intend to ready up and dedicate my next two hours from the get-go to some absolute stranger who I have no experience with or understanding of. Whilst being told, per the ruling mentioned in the discussion and reinforced by Garnascus in this very thread, that you're expected to break character to cater around this random person to the detriment of your own round and enjoyment. With being culted, you can fuck off and do your own thing instead of being glued by chance to someone entirely random and likely unvetted.

 

Edited by Carver
Re-ordered a couple sentences for clarity.

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