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DanseMacabre

Revert Garnascus' ruling on roundstart borer hosts.

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4 minutes ago, Carver said:

Whilst being told, per the ruling mentioned in the discussion and reinforced by Garnascus in this very thread, that you're expected to break character to cater around this random person to the detriment of your own round and enjoyment. 

It would be different if it was extended, but this is an antag round. You have to expect to be forced into RP with an antag, on an antag round. That's just the way it is. Would I be against adding a "host" preference in the antag options? Probably not. But it isn't as game breaking or immersion breaking as it's being made out to be.

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16 minutes ago, goolie said:

It would be different if it was extended, but this is an antag round. You have to expect to be forced into RP with an antag, on an antag round. That's just the way it is. Would I be against adding a "host" preference in the antag options? Probably not. But it isn't as game breaking or immersion breaking as it's being made out to be.

I don't have to cater my personal round entirely around any other antag. I can leave the round, fuck off from the scene, or do a number of things my character would ICly and realistically do to get away from the problem. This is, from the very get-go, having your round hijacked by a non-whitelisted stranger who goes "You wanted to play a round and do something on your own? Nah, eat a fucking slimey slug dong and spend a full 2 hours and fifteen minutes with me in control that you can't cryo or ghost from unless you get yourself killed".

If it were opt-in? Fine. If I could choose the person who shares my brain? Fine. If I could freely cryo upon realizing I otherwise have to spend two hours roped to some random? Fine. To use a video game reference, as it stands this is the equivalent of readying up for quick match in Heroes of the Storm as your favourite hero and matchmaking instead forces you to play Cho (Bonus points: Your Gall has never played before and argues with you over everything you do).

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Is it really in the spirit of HRP to only abide roleplaying with people you know, or know are "vetted"? In the end, if you get a shitter you're not going to be seeing them much anyway, but it doesn't hurt at all to at least give them a chance. I never expected getting thralled seemingly randomly, or at roundstart. But I simply rolled with the punches, and have gotten some pretty good borer rounds already. If the borer sucks, there would be resistance. Luckily all the borers I've had have been quite alright. We worked together, and these are people I probably have never even interacted with much before.

A paragon of perfection that can't get converted to cult, bribed, thralled, dominated, or whatever else, is a failure of roleplay already. I don't have too strong an opinion on whether borer hosts should be an option or not, but I'm leaning to no. I've actually never antagged until the borer gamemode "forced it", but I'll probably tick the option should it come to be.

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Do you know what people will do now if they really don't want a borer inside them? They won't ready up. They'll join mid round.

 

The reason why so many people are against this ruling is because that this really goes against what people expect from antags. Since my PR that made people not be antagonists if they don't want to, people have been reasonably comfortable with expecting that they're not going to have to deal with antag bullshit 0 minutes into the round. Having to be forced with an antag without any roleplay is just dumb and goes against existing norms and rules on the server, and honestly feels like an extremely poor attempt to turn another bug/oversight into a feature.

 

Here is an easy solution: People who have borer enabled and didn't get borer in a borer round would get a borer spawned in them.

Edited by BurgerBB

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I do not like this suggestion, and here is why:

In Aurora, there is enough tedious stonewalling that antags have to face, they are tasked to create a story that entertains, yet also are faced with the obstacles that are the majority of the crew.

For example, in rev, you have:

Command questioning every attempt at deception you try, making using fake announcements and forgery very difficult (Seriously, there is a 9/10 chance they immediately send us a fax indirectly asking us to shut down the gimic)

Security

Other crew who are "Not exactly loyalist but will fight the revolutionaries when given the chance"

Overall, I feel having the borers as they are is a step in the right direction for the server. Regardless, give it a month at least, then we can look back and see if having involuntary round start hosts was good in the end or not.

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Indulge me a long-post.

First, lemme pose a question. What difference does it make whether you get brain-slugged at round start, 5 minutes into the round, or 50 minutes into the round? My immediate response would be, "Well I can potentially avoid it in the latter two cases," but is this really true? A good antagonist will concoct a situation where you pretty much have no escape from, and are forced to submit. So this response rings a bit hollow.

The way I see it, unless it's voted extended, you should be joining with the expectation of having antags mess with you. This includes being turned into a cultist, a revolutionary, with traitors setting you up to do their bidding, or with getting a brain-slug in your head. There is no "timeout" before this can happen, there is no preference to stop this from happening. You are expected to roll with it, you are expected to roleplay around it.

A few notes about the above. First, in a previous discussion, the fact that cultists no longer insta-convert was brought up, thus giving you a theoretical "out" if you don't want to be a cultist. However, consider that this actually kinda works the other way around: the expected conduct of a "normal" character having his soul torn to pieces would be to submit and give in. Thus, all it is is a hamfisted attempt at flavour. Whether you like it or not is one thing, but do not misconstrue it for what it is not.

Second, about roleplay. The argumentum ad-extremum of "Well we can no longer call ourselves HRP if we expect people to go along with antagonists!" is fucking bullshit. It has been bullshit since myself and YeahChris first encountered it in 2014, it will continue to remain bullshit. "Roleplay" is about playing a role in whatever setting you're plopped into it. If our setting requires to be receptive towards antag shenanigans, then that's how it is. Much like roleplaying a character in DnD would expect you to be receptive towards mystical fucking dungeons littering the landscape, and the unbelievable fact that your character is about to be the centre of a relatively large happening. But hey, it's the setting of the game, ergo, you roll with it. Much the same, in our game, you are expected to be somewhat receptive towards all the nine levels of hell that our antagonists can represent, and going along with it for a bit.

Finally, I agree with Burger in that this shit is down to player expectations. Though my view on it is very simple: you are playing on a server with antags enabled. Close to 50 % of our rounds played each year are antag rounds. You will have to face them. You will have to interact with them. You are expected to get along with them and at worst, to play along with them to a certain degree. Theoretically the "realistic" way to handle most antag action would be to report it to sec and hide.

This leads me to pointing out the fact that the people who say that they cryo when they figure out the mode and think they dislike it are ultimately toxic with respect to the game and expectations established before the antagonists. And for the record, before anyone starts bringing up stupid points about prior enforcement. We have warned and banned people for the following before, and are likely to do it again: regularly cryoing at round start when you don't get antag; regularly cryoing at round start when you do get antag; constantly asking to be de-antagged; regularly cryoing after being converted. And I would enjoy seeing all of these policies continued. And please don't throw stupid shit like, "Oh so real life has to be put on hold while I play the game?" as someone did in Discord earlier. The key word here is "Regularly". Once or twice, no one will even notice or care. Specially if you're also courteous about this by informing relevant entities over LOOC/AOOC/adminhelp.

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Im extremely against forcing someone to be the host of a borer on roundstart.

Borerhosts are as important as a borer when it comes to round progression and enjoyment of the round, but forcing them will only drag the round down, not improve a single thing.

Every single converting antag type gives you a choice. You do not have to join cult or revs, I don’t see why we should enforce it for borer.

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I am against forcing the borer for multiple reasons. Firstly, being forced into an antag role roundstart is pretty shitty, and IS different from getting converted or slugged later since something usually happens instead of just “you are a slug slave now”. On top of this, having to break character for something you can get forced into is not cool. And finally, You might end up getting a new player slugged. Imagine joining this server for the first time, having all prefs off, and spawning the first round in with a brain slug who is now your sugar daddy. Not only does this not set a great first impression, a new player is very unlikely to support the story at all, especially with a complicated situation like this. Roundstart hosts are a great idea, but only if it is opt-in.

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Pretty sure that this came up after some dingus started to scream about borers right when the round started, which is really bad faith. Also, I am fairly sure that any borer gamemode has to be voted in, so when you ready up you might be aware that you can become one. However, I believe that you can just cryo if you want, but don't try to screw over antags when you do. Also, if you play in a secret round, you should expect for antags to get in the way.

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46 minutes ago, Roostercat said:

On top of this, having to break character for something you can get forced into is not cool.

If going along with a borer is breaking character, then honest to god, what point is there in a borer gamemode in general? Because we would have people just rat out borers because they don't like going along with it. A part of roleplay is to figure out why your character would want to do something. So if you get brain-slugged, find that one part of him which would go along with it for whatever reason and roll with that.

Following through with this mode of thought will lead to all antags which involve mind-fuckery or otherwise exerting control over a character (like vamp, among others) to be slated for removal. Because it's going to force you to do things you don't want to do.

46 minutes ago, Roostercat said:

Imagine joining this server for the first time, having all prefs off, and spawning the first round in with a brain slug who is now your sugar daddy. Not only does this not set a great first impression, a new player is very unlikely to support the story at all, especially with a complicated situation like this.

Why is this a bad first experience...? Go check reddit for threads that go along the lines of, "My first round was like X, holy crap I'm looking forward for the next one!" Most of them include really drastic shit happening, because it's engaging and thus memorable. Having a good brain-slug in your cranium, whispering you to do shit should be no different.

Also, this is one of the cases where an admin could probably interject and transfer the host. But it's a rare enough case to be left as a unicorn.

58 minutes ago, Yonnimer said:

Borerhosts are as important as a borer when it comes to round progression and enjoyment of the round, but forcing them will only drag the round down, not improve a single thing.

Every single converting antag type gives you a choice. You do not have to join cult or revs, I don’t see why we should enforce it for borer.

Re: importance. Ye okay, I kinda have to hand you that one. Though a compromise on this count would be to make it prefer those with the antag option enabled. Because it's equally important that the round actually starts.

Re: converting antag types. Yes and no. As I explained in my long-post, at least half of those choices are lies. If we want to insist on heavy roleplay, then there's no chance in hell that you wouldn't join the cult during conversion. The only question would be how mentally deranged your character would be by the time he gives in. Rev is probably the most escapable, tho this is highly circumstantial, and saying "No" to a bunch of dudes with guns is generally a bad idea, if they engineer the situation well enough.

But this brings me back to two points. First is that conversion and going along with antags is necessary for a healthy environment. Giving people the ability to directly nope away from being converted is awful, since it starts generating an attitude of, "If I'm not in control of what's happening to my character, I don't want to play at all." Again, the entire point of this game is to roll with the punches it serves you. If it means being a cultist, then so be it. If it means getting brain-slugged, then so be it. Yes, it is granted that you won't enjoy every single round, but do you enjoy every match of your favourite shooter? Or every episode of your favourite TV show? I will grant that this is erring on the side of a false dichotomy, because the expenditure of time is different, but the core idea is similar: even with your favourite activities, you tend to participate in the moments that you don't necessarily enjoy.

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My problem only is that people cryoing because they're unannounced borerhosts will make inevitably some people upset. Yet they're not beholden to the antag restrictions on cryoing, and usually not beholden to the Head restrictions either, so what's keeping someone from leaving a round they won't enjoy (especially if it's Secret? We re-added forced antag if you vote an antag type or Secret, but someone can vote for Extended, Secret gets in anyway, and they can end up as Borer) when it's obvious that they just won't enjoy it? Isn't that kind of lame for everyone involved?

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17 minutes ago, Sytic said:

My problem only is that people cryoing because they're unannounced borerhosts will make inevitably some people upset. Yet they're not beholden to the antag restrictions on cryoing, and usually not beholden to the Head restrictions either, so what's keeping someone from leaving a round they won't enjoy (especially if it's Secret? We re-added forced antag if you vote an antag type or Secret, but someone can vote for Extended, Secret gets in anyway, and they can end up as Borer) when it's obvious that they just won't enjoy it? Isn't that kind of lame for everyone involved?

This isn't the only case where such a problem exists, however. Pretty much the only case (outside of round-start borer) where you can jettison yourself from the round without making it lame for people is when you somehow discover the round "while passing by". For example, when mercs start blowing shit up and you realize this over comms. In any other situation, like a rev/cult kidnapping or an antag forcing you to do something; if you nope away from it, then it's going to be lame for a whole bunch of more people than just you.

Generally I'd expect people to be tolerant towards being the subject for such events. There's an ass tonne of players on the server, the chances of you being a borer host two rounds in a row are slim to none. So just bare and grin it, try to find some enjoyment and engagement in it. The same applies for when a vamp dominates you, when you're forced to do something at gunpoint, etcetera. This is a matter where I think the principle is as important as pragmatism.

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Honestly once the option to disable it as a preference it will be fine, if your not up to anything different then you can do what you like. For those of us that appreciate the addition and change will keep it on. Simple.

 

As for forced Coersion with the Borer, I'm not too bothered about. AS long as there is some leniency in self preservation.

Edited by Hendricks

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It is deeply discomforting to me that the official headstaff take on the issue is that “You are a toxic player if you cyro after being forced into an antagonist role” - which is what is happening. Borerhost is, in essence, an antagonist role.

 

With regards to people, the player should never be forced to play anything that they are unwilling or uncomfortable playing. This is not a chore, it is a game. This is why job preferences exist: to give the player choice. This is why antagonist preferences exist: to allow the player to opt-in, if they so choose. You may claim that people can be made into antagonists later in round- but those still require you to consent to conversion. They are still an opt-in situation. Borer, however, completely ignores the precedent put in place by these mechanics. Borerhost is essentially an antagonist, and you can be made into one regardless of whether you want to be an antagonist or not - both at round start, and later on in the game. With that in mind, to say the player is toxic if they wish to opt out is something that sets a bad, bad precedent. I don’t mean to invoke the slippery slope fallacy, but what next? Garn said that he thinks cult should not offer you a choice to say no. Will this combination of player choice removal and OOC punishment for not wanting to take part extend to every conversion gamemode?

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I don't get why we need the initial slug to even be in another player. Why not just make the initial host the own player's character. When they leave it, the body is braindead. That makes more sense than forcing more people to be involved in the antag stuff at round start.

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It already does, @DanseMacabre. For the n-th time, have a think about conversion game modes for a moment, and count the generic situations where you actually have a choice in. Not doing something while under threat of violence will generally get you bwoinked. You have some freedom in how you respond, but you will be bwoinked for trying to rambo (or for trying to escape, depending on circumstance). Again, when we view cultists or the rev's posing the question of "Hey, wanna rev it up?" the proper application of violence can engineer a situation where your character is forced to comply, and failure to do so will violate our roleplay guidelines (your character valuing their life).

While the point of "Not forcing people to do what they don't want" seems noble. It has a shortcoming. See, beyond being subjected to antagonists, this game has many components that an individual might not want have happen to their character. Why would I want to participate in a scene where my character dies? Why would I want to participate in a scene where my character loses? Why would I want to participate in a scene where my character is forced to kill his best friend? All of these are possible scenarios for IC interaction, played through many times. Following the credo of "Let's let the players choose what they want have happen to their character" would remove the entire game from here.

The entire idea behind multiplayer story driven games like SS13 is to build something together. Even on a smaller scale, like pen and paper games, your fellow mates can (and arguably, the better ones do) stab your character in the back or have other fun memes on their expense. And that makes the games good. Because it's a dynamic environment, the only bounds set are the ones of general decency and expected content. The rest is up to the players to create and react to.

@AmoryBlaine Bad idea. What happens when the borer leaves his host. You're left with a body you can't clean-up easily and that is useless.

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Just now, Skull132 said:

@AmoryBlaine Bad idea. What happens when the borer leaves his host. You're left with a body you can't clean-up easily and that is useless.

Well, you can re-enter it, right? Like, you'd take your husked character into a quiet area, keep them there. Or just leave them somewhere obvious if you want to push for a certain approach to the round. It's similar to finding a ling victim's body. It acts as a prompt for ramping up the tensity. Plus, I enjoy the idea of the initial host being somewhat long-term. Like the slug has long since eaten away at most of the brain.

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I'm of the belief that it should draft people if they have any antag or even any special role enabled in that character's preferences. If you're willing to antag you should be valid for being drafted as a host. Would easily prevent "not enough hosts" while sparing people who don't want the chance of antag at all. 

Matt's fix is cleaner but now we run into the problem of not having enough borers for it to be selected, or selecting from a limited pool of people. Which is a damn shame because this is really unique and fresh in terms of antag gamemodes. I understand why he took this route but I'm kind of disappointed at the outcry. I didn't like it either when it happened to me, I admit, and I think SOME change should be made instead of picking just anyone. Forced converts leave a bad taste in my mouth because frankly I've had too many experiences soured by bad antags (wordless thralls, using borer to just walk around and embarrass you, johnny always-cult doing the same thing to convert you, etc) but I don't think they're inherently a bad thing. 

6 hours ago, Skull132 said:

Though a compromise on this count would be to make it prefer those with the antag option enabled. Because it's equally important that the round actually starts.

This is definitely something I can get behind, too, and one of the ideas I pitched to Matt. I feel like this is a great solution, personally. 

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I think comparing being killed, attacked, manipulated, et cetera, to being forced into being a borer host is a false dichotomy. One is something happening to your character, the other is adopting a new role within the round's narrative. The difference between being shot and being infected is great - from an OOC perspective, once you are infected, you are essentially an extension of the antagonist. This is not the case with a traitor murdering me, or a traitor forcing me to choose between death and shooting my best friend. You are complying because you are being coerced, or in the former case - you are being removed from the round to achieve a narrative goal. When the borer slips through your ear canal, there is no question of coercion - you are OOCly required to buddy up with the brain parasite. You are an antagonist. 

 

When a character is killed or coerced, they are still that character put into an unfortunate situation. When a character is infested by a borer, they are no longer that character - just as a character who is an antagonist is likely a highly modified version of that character. A more apt comparison is not one of being murdered and being infested, it is one of turning into a changeling in the middle of the round and being infested. 

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4 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

When a character is killed or coerced, they are still that character put into an unfortunate situation. When a character is infested by a borer, they are no longer that character - just as a character who is an antagonist is likely a highly modified version of that character. A more apt comparison is not one of being murdered and being infested, it is one of turning into a changeling in the middle of the round and being infested. 

But when playing a borer host, your character is still your character. Being put into an unfortunate (or perhaps not so) situation. The only request that we have is that you go along with it, for the sake of the round. Easiest method to do that, IMO, would be to simply establish that the infection happened way before, and so your character is kinda gotten to grips with having a slug in their brain. So you're still your character, just in a curious situation. You don't even have to be a mindless slave, just don't be completely lame and rat the bugger out the first chance you get. Host v borer conflict is an important part of gameplay, and this applies to round start hosts as well, the borer even has tools to deal with it. Just. Don't be a dick about it and :ree: the first chance you get.

Also, I just spotted this.

14 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

I think comparing being killed, attacked, manipulated, et cetera, to being forced into being a borer host is a false dichotomy.

What is being a borer host than not being manipulated? The entire point of being a borer host is that your character is being manipulated by the slug in their cranium. You aren't a mindless slave, until you get your brain nommed anyways.

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11 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

But when playing a borer host, your character is still your character. Being put into an unfortunate (or perhaps not so) situation. The only request that we have is that you go along with it, for the sake of the round. Easiest method to do that, IMO, would be to simply establish that the infection happened way before, and so your character is kinda gotten to grips with having a slug in their brain. So you're still your character, just in a curious situation. You don't even have to be a mindless slave, just don't be completely lame and rat the bugger out the first chance you get. Host v borer conflict is an important part of gameplay, and this applies to round start hosts as well, the borer even has tools to deal with it. Just. Don't be a dick about it and :ree: the first chance you get.

Once again, I feel like this statement is inherently self-contradictory. You claim that your character is still your character, and not a mindless slave - and yet in spite of that, the character is no longer allowed to act in the way they would as that character. There is no free will, you have no choice - and in that case, how can play that character possibly not be a mindless slave?

14 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

The only request that we have is that you go along with it, for the sake of the round. -snip- You don't even have to be a mindless slave, just don't be completely lame and rat the bugger out the first chance you get. Host v borer conflict is an important part of gameplay, and this applies to round start hosts as well, the borer even has tools to deal with it. Just. Don't be a dick about it and :ree: the first chance you get.

Here lies the meat of the problem - this is why this ruling is one that is opposed to roleplay. First off - this is a demand, not a request. The demand is to work with the borer regardless of how your character would normally act. If you do not go along with this, there are OOC consequences.

Back to the point I was making: you are demanding the player not roleplay their character as they would naturally act. Instead, the player is required to act in a certain way in order to achieve a certain style of gameplay. Furthermore, the statements made here are at odds with Garnascus' statements. Garn specifically says that your actions MUST NOT ENDANGER the borer in your head. Garn says you MUST obey the borer in your head: Which is it? That you don't need to be a mindless slave and all that is required is that you do not rat them out immediately, or that Garnascus' original statement is the correct one?

20 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

What is being a borer host than not being manipulated? The entire point of being a borer host is that your character is being manipulated by the slug in their cranium.

Blackmail is manipulation. Being forced to do something at gunpoint is manipulation. Having a slug in your brain forcing you to do things is mind control. You can resist the former, not the later. You are a person doing something they do not want to do in the first case - in the second, you aren't a person, you're a puppet.

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19 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

Once again, I feel like this statement is inherently self-contradictory. You claim that your character is still your character, and not a mindless slave - and yet in spite of that, the character is no longer allowed to act in the way they would as that character. There is no free will, you have no choice - and in that case, how can play that character possibly not be a mindless slave?

Sometimes certain accommodation must be made. I outlined the one required for borer to exist as an enjoyable game mode at all. If we permit characters to completely lose their shit and rat out a borer the first chance they get (round start or otherwise), then the gamemode is a relatively worthless addition.

21 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

Here lies the meat of the problem - this is why this ruling is one that is opposed to roleplay. First off - this is a demand, not a request. The demand is to work with the borer regardless of how your character would normally act. If you do not go along with this, there are OOC consequences.

Back to the point I was making: you are demanding the player not roleplay their character as they would naturally act. Instead, the player is required to act in a certain way in order to achieve a certain style of gameplay. Furthermore, the statements made here are at odds with Garnascus' statements. Garn specifically says that your actions MUST NOT ENDANGER the borer in your head. Garn says you MUST obey the borer in your head: Which is it? That you don't need to be a mindless slave and all that is required is that you do not rat them out immediately, or that Garnascus' original statement is the correct one?

Imma invoke @Garnascus on this one. The policy as written might indeed be a bit too strict. Generally speaking, the borer has tools with which they can influence the host one way or another, and as said, borer v host conflict is expected to be a part of the round. However, a balance must be struck between that and not "ruining the round". And the proposal in this thread is basically the other end of the extreme.

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Quote

While you are still an individual that is free to act and think your actions must not endanger the borer inside your head. You should seek to obey them and roll with whatever plan they have going on. Immediately resisting for pretty much any reason is extremely bad faith. You're encouraged to utilize looc or AOOC if hosts have access to it to get a working plan together

 

You should seek to

You're encouraged to

The word choice im using is meant to imply what you generally should do. Not really what you must always do. I mean to imply here that its incredibly lame to resist your borer at roundstart. This inevitably gets you dragged to medical. The worm shows up on a scanner as a tumor. Once they take it out in surgery the cat is out of the bag and the round is fucked. Like, make use of the conversation skills we have as being human beings and talk to the worm inside your head through LOOC or AOOC or something. 

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