Jump to content
Bear

Staff Complaint - Resilynn, Kyres

Recommended Posts

((Long edit above to clarify where I stand and consolidate what has been said over this long thread. I don't think there's much more I can add to this other than that))

-----

I lied. Another edit in - There were a lot of miners that shift. The reason I bring this up is the crime was committed in EVA that wasn't stained in vaurca blood. The murder weapon was cleaned, leaving no DNA link to the scene that more than one person has walked through. Is Yahir still the most probable? Yes. But is there reasonable doubt it could have possibly been someone else? Also yes. Additionally. How much is the FIB really going to invest in a Cthur who was seen mutilating corpses?

Edited by Bear

Share this post


Link to post

I would like to start off by saying that I was one of the ghosts watching Yahir kill Wxkri. My memory isn't perfect, but I clearly remember he was wearing a voidsuit (which wouldn't simply "leak through", otherwise people would die from Eva) and he was careful not to leave evidence beyond the bloodstains and the PDA message. 

I want to bring up a more important point, though: Does the health of the server, The Warbling, the state of role-play, or really anyone whatsoever benefit from Yahir being permanently deleted/"sent off to GBJ"? 

I'm not entirely up-to-date on the situation, but every single party involved in the conflict seemed OOCly fine with it. For two weeks it felt like an iconic moment in the Warbling akin to Oscar dying or the Tups beating up Neith, thanks to how skillfully Bear and Diggiez played the murder out.

This situation isn't necessarily an OOC punishment against Bear for his actions, but I would say most people like their mains and  would not like to see them deleted.

Yahir did leave behind crumbs of evidence, especially the PDA message, which is realistically what an untrained person who committed a murder would do. But if staff does decide to carry through with essentially deleting him for it, they'd be sending the following message:

If another player's character was in a similar situation, we should play out the whole thing completely coldly, leave no RP hooks behind, and make sure everything is mechanically clean. 

I don't think deleting Yahir for this is necessarily wrong or unrealistic; I think it'd be boring for everyone involved. At its core, this is a game; games are supposed to be fun. 

Force Yahir to spy for the Federation. Beat him up in an interrogation and put him on a watchlist, watching his actions closely. Try and have him deported to the Federation as part of the Warbling itself, with reasonable ways for him to avoid ending up like that. 

Create hooks for Bear's character to play along with just like Bear created hooks for us to play along with when he had Yahir kill Wxkri. Or anything of the sort. 

Just make it fun, rather than essentially deleting someone's character for a one-off thing. 

As an aside, I'm biased because Bear's characters are some of my top favorites in Aurora, even though I nearly always end up in IC conflict with them.

Khazmahr was one of the only people who my characters had actual IC interactions about Adhomai history with, and seemed genuinely pissed when I threw a Hadii's grace joke at him; Yahir was the only person who ever swore back at my character when insulted over something trivial.

I absolutely love situations like that, and it makes the game more fun for me, so I might be projecting on how the loss of one of those characters would impact the community. So, rather than going on and on about how this decision would harm the fun for me and other people, I'd like to bring up my original question: 

Who or what does this benefit? Do we need to go on and on about flimsy IC evidence, separation of story and mechanics, forensics trivia, or should we just focus on figuring out how to make this genuinely fun for everyone involved? 

Edited by RadiantRose
Typos, phrasing, oh god mobile forums are awful

Share this post


Link to post

I'm not entirely sure if this is my jurisdiction, but here's my thoughts so far on reading, rereading, and thinking about it.

I think if I was presented with all the evidence that has been posted in this thread, I think I would have agreed that Yahir should have been arrested. It seems to me that there was far and enough evidence to take him in on probable cause. From there would be a drawn out legal battle, assuming he didn't confess under pressure (most people do IRL anyhow). In who knows how long, following a process of discovery, depositions, legal scrambling, there would finally be a trial where he might or might not be guilty. The entire duration of which he would be held without bail considering the charge is murder. Would he be found guilty? Maybe, maybe not. But "Delivering Mata'ke's judgement" and "she does not want to know" "She would be obliged to act." [because he's talking to security personnel] "A Vaurca tried to get rid of Easter's body. He has squashed a bug." is abundantly incriminating. Committing a murder on a canon event round where intelligence forces were present was extremely bold and high risk. And well, sometimes the risk pays off and sometimes it doesn't. You really rolled the dice on this, and if it weren't for that PDA message I would have felt you had sufficiently covered your tracks. 

Here are the issues I have with the procedure for how it was handled. Resi did not consult me or get definitive and explicit approval from an administrator before moving forward with this. I've been largely spotty in my availability since Christmas since the Christmas season was very hectic for me, I was very ill for a few days, and then after that illness I lost my computer for a few days. So this may be why Resi went to Kyres about it instead of myself, since at the time I was essentially deflecting all my responsibilities to my deputy. I'm also not a fan of how it took some weeks before a decision was made and the player was informed, though this was explained by attempting to work through taj team first before discovering Yahir was not a citizen. I still would have far more preferred if the wheels on that bus turned quicker, since I feel a few weeks was too much time to have determined those circumstances. I also would have liked, despite it possibly being out of their jurisdiction, if Lancer was consulted. Since I believe past murder cases (where the murderer had evidence and was arrested later or was caught in-round) went through CCIA. I don't remember the exact event or characters, but there is a precedent that someone who canonically murdered someone else was later ICly arrested on station by biesel authorities on suspicion of that murder. 

If it's up to me (I'm not sure if it is) I would uphold Yahir's arrest, though obviously he wouldn't just automatically be found guilty. I dunno how a court case would turn out, but it would take so long anyways assuming there wasn't a confession that it's functionally removing the character anyways, at least for a year, and if he confessed it would still mean removal. Does it suck? Well yes, but committing a canon murder carries exactly this risk with it. I'd really say don't kill someone on extended/during a canon event unless you're fully prepared for the possibility of losing your character. A lot of killers aren't exactly caught within moments of their crime anyhow, the fact that he wasn't discovered in round isn't entirely of consequence here. Both because we already have a precedent when the police boarded the station on extended and arrested someone for a canon murder they did in a different round and because being arrested some time later is usually what happens to murderers. 

On the subject of overruling the decision to make an exception for good roleplay: I'm unwilling to do this. If a character not everyone liked was in the same situation, should they get a pass? Just because people like Yahir and because Bear's roleplay was well received doesn't mean I can say the canonical murder was fine and the police totally let him off the hook. If George Melons the greytider did the same thing but roleplayed it in such a way where it was clear he wasn't griefing and it had to be handled ICly, I would have come to the same conclusion. The stakes for canon murder have to be high to make sure its both rare and sweet to pull off (I've heard tales before of people who have pulled it off). Just like a good roleplayer may be slapped with an IR rather than the modmin team for good roleplay where they did bad things, so too do I feel this is the appropriate consequence. 

If my superiors feel differently and would like to hand down a different ruling, I will defer to their judgement. However, due to my disagreements on procedure I am going to give a lore team warning to @resi based on the means utilized, even if I agree with the ends. 

Share this post


Link to post

I still don't think the issue of evidence was addressed. The entire case is: PDA messages. Blood in the maints. And a body that took a blunt piercing object 25 times to the head assuming it was found. No DNA links to the crime scene to a taj. The murder weapon was cleaned. The EVA gear was free of vaurca blood. Thats a shotty link at best. Additionally. The FIB wasn't there. It was simply the skrell who had already departed by that point.

Especially you know, if you were to ask Yahir what he meant by those PDA messages. He'd lie and say he was referring to the point he shot wxkri. Still fits the scenario. But an interview  never happened.

And why is TC going to waste how many thousands of credits with prosecution to risk losing a shotty case and never close it on a vaurca caught molesting bodies that isn't even a Zo'ra when they can simply let it go cold and wait for more evidence to provide itself.

Edited by Bear

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, ParadoxSpace said:

Today's reminder that rinsing things off in the shower does not clean them of various forensics materials, such as blood, DNA, etc.

If I am bound by in game mechanics that limit things such as throwing a body into space, so are we bound by methods to clean tools in game.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Bear said:

And why is TC going to waste how many thousands of credits with prosecution to risk losing a shotty case and never close it on a vaurca caught molesting bodies that isn't even a Zo'ra when they can simply let it go cold and wait for more evidence to provide itself.

That is not how justice works at all. Any modern state would really care about murder happening within its borders, even NanoTrasen, since it is a co-worker that might be killing each other.

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

That is not how justice works at all. Any modern state would really care about murder happening within its borders, even NanoTrasen, since it is a co-worker that might be killing each other.

That is exactly how modern justice works though. Cases are tried once. If the prosecution fails on their main lead, the accused walks. Double Jeopardy in every modern justice system prevents retrial. This is a murder case. This is going to have to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt. As it stands Yahir is definitely a prime suspect, are you telling me you can't plug and play any of the other miners in the scenario they have here reasonably? The PDA messages are highly suspect, but as I said, he would lie about their origin and admission for a lesser fault. He shot the Vaurca and the vaurca went into open void to which 90% of ppl don't return alive. For someone who DOESNT KNOW THAT YAHIR ACTUALLY MURDERED WXKRI this is still enough to cast doubt on the intention of the messages.

Edited by Bear

Share this post


Link to post

The argument I pointed out is; why would tau ceti care about a murder happening, Which is stupid, because that is what they are meant to do in regards to criminal justice, a state would waste money to investigate and do a court, because that is their job.

Share this post


Link to post

I misunderstood the point you were going for. But the whole point of that line is you have a prosecution team moving to a federal attorney saying "We have some bad PDA messages from this guy about this vaurca, a scene full of blood, and body that got pierced 30 times with a blunt object.. but nothing linking any of these together phyisically besides the blood belonging to the body." The attorney is going to be fully aware this is going to be going in front of a jury of their piers and the relation  of how little the Vaurca are viewed for. If they push the case, and lose. It looks bad on them and all the credits wasted. They're going to want an actually solid case before moving ahead with prosecution. Why? Because if these people don't all agree, yeah he did it and we don't doubt it. He walks for good and the case is closed for the Tajara.

Edited by Bear

Share this post


Link to post

I'd like to nudge this for a resolution @Skull132. Especially in light of the Tup peackeepers going "remember no russian" on a crowd yesterday, who were also present around the time of wxkri's death.

I'd like to hammer on a few points on why I don't think this would go past an initial month or two of investigation/interrogation.

-No physical link to Wxkri's crime scene. Yahir was not injured and the EVA gear utilized were free of vaurca blood at the end of shift. Same for Wxkri's body which would have smeared against the rock. Yahir was not the only miner who was last seen with Wxkri before he disappeared. Now the arguement could be made that who's to say it wasnt a skrell setup considering they open fired on their own citizens yesterday and actively/openly hunted Skrell and Cthur Vaurca alike and one Cthur was abducted again last round. The only suspect Yahir/probable cause route just diminished. Who's not to say something just went wrong with Wxkri getting nabbed?

-The PDA messages. This is the literal only thing incriminating Yahir. And they are bad, no arguement there. But again as I said earlier. Yahir would have lied saying he meant when he shot Wxkri as Wxkri tried to dump Easter's body after mutilating it and the vaurca jumped into space from which 90% of people don't return.

Obviously, I'm prepared to face the consequences in the end either way. But I would really prefer not to lose my main on such stretched and circumstantial evidence.

Edited by Bear

Share this post


Link to post

I want to post only to bring up the precedent that I set during my tenure as loremaster for around four years, and Alberyk has said this will be fine. It actually follows a lot of what Mofo posted. A forced character deletion was always done carefully. The most important thing was that whatever resolution we came to we had the consent of the player. A player was never, to the best of my knowledge, forced to delete one of their characters due to consequences from an event.

Players always consented to any permanent deletion of their character. Non-deletion resolutions, even if a bit contrived, were put in place.

The most notable examples are the victims of the Odin Killer series of events which include the victims as well as someone who did something very similar to Bear - attacking a prime suspect in custody. The victims were basically told to nap on it and given time to evaluate the decision of being permanently dead. The later attack of the prime suspect in custody by the HoS forced our hand but the player agreed to a permanent retirement and I did my best to "make up for it" by having them be front page news and the character being a pivitol, if controversial, part of the forum-news resolution arc.

It was always important to have players maintain agency over the destiny of their characters even if circumstances force the options available to be limited.

Edited by Marlon Phoenix

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

The most important thing was that whatever resolution we came to we had the consent of the player. A player was never, to the best of my knowledge, forced to delete one of their characters due to consequences from an event.

Players always consented to any permanent deletion of their character. Non-deletion resolutions, even if a bit contrived, were put in place.

Wasn't there a guy who poisoned the president or something a couple years back on a canon event? If I recall his character was force deleted over that one because I had to explain that situation to him

Share this post


Link to post

To the best of my knowledge the player consented to it; I do not remember there being pushback.

Edited by Marlon Phoenix

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, Marlon Phoenix said:

To the best of my knowledge the player consented to it; I do not remember there being pushback.

From what I remember speaking to him he was unhappy about it but relented when I told him he could keep the character as a raider/merc in a non-canon capacity.

Point being that his character was removed from the station because it was very hard to justify their continued employment following the IC resolution of the event.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

It was always important to have players maintain agency over the destiny of their characters even if circumstances force the options available to be limited.

Well, agency goes both ways. The round in question was a canon event round, so the player [Bear] was completely aware of the fact that he would be throwing his character to the wolves by doing this murder. While there are no codified rules about "canon rounds", it has been made abundantly clear, through announcements, and de facto policy that events of the rounds classified as "Canon rounds" are by-default canon, and carry consequences. Ergo, the player exercised their agency by killing the Vaurca. It wasn't pre-coordinated with the event leaders, it was emergent gameplay during a round which is explicitly classified as canon. They got to pick their destiny, and their choice was to throw their character to the wolves.

So to say that the player's agency was completely removed from this decision is absolutely false. There is also minimal analogy between the events here, which were a part of emergent gameplay, and the pre-planned murders and sentencing of characters, which is what took place during the Odin arc, sans one exception.

Before moving on to my next point, allow me to state the authority that the respective teams have over characters and their play. The administrative team, and the CCIAA, which is a subdivision of the former, have direct authority to rule over the characters in play, ultimately. This is necessary for them to enforce the rules of the server. So effectively, the buck of, "Can I play my character?" stops with an administrator or a CCIA Agent's ruling, with the exception of complaints. The lore team's authority is non-existent in this field, with a caveat. The caveat is that any decision can be enforced with the consensus of all participating parties. Which how these situations have been handled thus far: the event leader and the subjects of the event have agreed upon whatever fate their characters end up with. If there is a disagreement, however, then the discussion should be escalated to the admins for review, judgement, and finalization. Which is sort of why we're here now!

As @Mofo1995 said, the main issue to take here is to be with the process, not necessarily with the result. Though I'd also like to ask @Resilynn whether she deemed the matter closed, or actually had planned to follow up on this matter with the FIB/CCIAA before the complaint? Since this might also be a miscommunication one way or another.

Ultimately, per the general consensus from the admin team, it is agreed that there should be consequences for the murder. The PDA messages make it quite clear that Bear's character is a prime suspect, and would remain so for quite a long time. It is possible that NT would minimize the hours he gets on Aurora during the investigation, even if simply to minimize any future altercations between him and the rest of the crew that are aware of Easter's and the Vaurca's death. To that end, most of Mofo's suggested possibilities for a specific resolution look sound, though we're open to alternatives as well, if they're deemed acceptable.

Share this post


Link to post

I do not deny in any way Yahir would not be the prime suspect with the PDA messages. I am just fine with limited playtime on the character for an extended period of time. I am open to alternatives. Though I was told there would be no investigation. Rather just the arrest.

So to be clear what are my options here? I am definitely willing to be flexible here. I am just fine with my char having consequences. I simply didnt want the end of his story to be "and he went to gay baby jail"

An option that I would have ideally hoped for is to allow the arrest to go through, and shelve the character for a month or two while he sits in gay baby jail while further investigation/interrogation happened before release. I personally think the lack of any physical evidence damns this case from actually going through with an actual trial and conviction. But the PDA messages make him very, very suspect. I'd be happy to have the character on a watch list ect ect. But this is a personal hope, and I understand that. As I said, I am open to alternatives as well. I just need to know what my options are here.

Edited by Bear

Share this post


Link to post

This complaint was posted as we were having a discussion on what consequences the character should face for the murder.  I even specified immediately that the character may not be removed as a result, but the player had qualms about being a primary suspect, so I said a complaint would allow for a more thorough review of the event and the actions that occurred in it.

The logs of that conversation are posted here-

Quote

ResiLast Tuesday at 12:25 AM

I am sorry, my friend

But we have to have Yahir canon arrested

We can talk about the court case and when he can return and what happens and all that, and idk how much killing a vaurca even fucks you over in terms of time.

BearLast Tuesday at 12:27 AM

There were, literally no witnesses and the last time he was seen he jumped into space

ResiLast Tuesday at 12:27 AM

But a headmin and two admins, plus the deputy loremaster, PLUS the event runner all saw the PDA messages where he bragged about it. Aaaaand Kyres says it's too much to get away with.

BearLast Tuesday at 12:27 AM

And no

He never once said he killed him, or confirmed it with anyone

What message are you referring too exactly

ResiLast Tuesday at 12:28 AM

We can do it off screen, if you would like, or we could do it on station on extended.

The only reason it's taken me so long to contact you is because Alb was going to handle it from the PRA end of things before learning you weren't a citizen

BearLast Tuesday at 12:29 AM

Like i said what message bc

There is no hard evidence here, no body, and the last time he was seen was a witnessed suicidal jump into space

ResiLast Tuesday at 12:30 AM

He's still coming to work every day, the government knows he's not dead.

BearLast Tuesday at 12:30 AM

Im talking about the vaurca

The vaurca jumped

Into space

In front of multiple ppl

And that was the last time he was seen

By anyone but Yahir

ResiLast Tuesday at 12:31 AM

You can probably get us to pull logs for a staff complaint and contest it, but this was the decision kyres, alb, and I came to.

BearLast Tuesday at 12:31 AM

Thats why im asking about the PDA message bc i literally do not remember about a message saying Yahir killed Wxkri

ResiLast Tuesday at 12:32 AM

You messaged the security tajara a few times, including something along the lines of taking care of a vaurca.

BearLast Tuesday at 12:35 AM

Yeah I will defo be appealing that decision bc like i said, the body was dumped into space, the Vaurca was last seen by two different people jumping into space which is a one way trip in 90% of the time, and while I don't remember the specifics of the PDA i know for a fact he didn't mention killing wxkri, and waited until they were in person in an unmonitored area. i think the worst he said was squashing a bug and that's very circumstantial to hold up in a court of law where it has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt you know?

ResiLast Tuesday at 12:38 AM

Go ahead and file an appeal when you can, then, so we can have kyres and mofo look over the logs, which I otherwise don't have access to anymore.

And by appeal, I mean staff complaint, really, I don't think there's another method to appeal it

I won't take it personally even a little, I get it

BearLast Tuesday at 12:39 AM

Yeah I'll do so now. Sorry. But I know i covered Yahir's tracks well on that one and there were literally no witnesses so I have a very hard time seeing a possible PDA message holding up in a court of law. That's circumstantial at best and the vaurca was witnessed suicidally jumping into space

BearLast Tuesday at 12:51 AM

https://forums.aurorastation.org/topic/13644-staff-complaint-resilynn-alberyk-kyres/

oh shit formating

Anyways its up. Sorry to have it go in through a staff complaint but I find the entirety of a murder case being trialed and jury'd base off a string of vague text messages absurd

ResiLast Tuesday at 12:59 AM

It’s alright. I’m fine with it being reviewed more thoroughly.

BearLast Tuesday at 1:00 AM

Mhm, i mean im fine with him being canon interviewed

I would love to see FIB being used

But an entire murder case being prosecuted and convicted off of vague messages, no physical evidence, no body, and an already plausible cause of death from suicide, silly

So I urge you to bring that to your lore team and re-talk through it. Because remember. People watched Wxkri jump into space. Everyone else but Yahir underestimated the Vaurca. Yahir... having fallen multiple times, figured he would go to the vents

And followed Wxkri's break in trail

No one else saw

And the body was dumped into open space afterwards

I hope this clears up questions about the options I gave the player.  An FIB arrest on or off station, according to the preference of the character, was exactly what I was discussing.  No agreement to permanently remove the character was ever come to, nor did I say I would be permanently removing the character- that was to be had in another discussion with admins and mofo to be held after we agreed whether the character would be arrested at all.

For the record, I do believe the character should be removed as a result of the actions.  The PDA logs were worse than I remembered.  But in terms of the conversation this complaint is about, we were still just talking about an arrest.

Share this post


Link to post

Perhaps that was my misunderstanding then when you started talking about how much time killing a Vaurca gets you. Regardless it originally was in protest of the arrest in general until alberyk posted the PDA messages which I then stated were worse than i remembered as well. I also messaged you about that on discord as well as alternatives but did not receove a response so I assumed alternatives were off the table as there wss no communication afterwards.

At the end of the day Resi I have to disagree. You again have no physicial link to the crime other than the PDA messages. Which do not specifically say he killed wxkri and can easily be correlated with the witnessed altercation they had earlier. 


 

Screenshot_20200119-182135_Discord.jpg

Screenshot_20200119-182125_Discord.jpg

Share this post


Link to post

I try not to respond to DMs during an active complaint.

Edited by Resilynn
Especially ABOUT the complaint

Share this post


Link to post

Thats okay, i wasnt offended by it. But without communication stating otherwise you can understand why I had drew the conclusion that there was no alternative.

 

I really do not think the character should be permanently removed in either case. So if there are other options I would like to hear them. Otherwise I will obviously go with Skull's decision.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...