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UnknownMurder

Rectify Changeling's Blade Arms

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https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/issues/9152

So, apparently. I was thinking this was a bug this whole time. It turns out it wasn't. It was either a feature or an intended consequences. This suggestion plans to change this. Security should not be able to nullify a Changeling's Blade Arms by just cuffing the sharp blades. I also suggest the sharp blades to go away when you are unconscious or you trigger blades to go away.

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"[But... BUT... ] don't get aggressive grabbed by security and actually fight them well then" 

I don't think this person realized what I just said. You are cuffing a person who are likely swinging around their blades in a conflict. In fact, the cuffs can either slip out because of the sword funnel point or it's too big for cuffs to fit. 

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"[But.... BUT... ] Sec cuffing was already nerfed by requiring an aggressive grab. [I need muh salad valids.]"

Don't get killed by changeling and actually fight them well then. 

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"Your sword would basically be useless after being cuffed anyways" 

This person did not read I what I wrote. The handcuff should not at all cuff a changeling that has a arm blade out.

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"sprouting the arm sword breaks you out of cuffs."

No shit, Sherlock. If sprouting an arm blade breaks you out cuffs, then changeling with arm blade shouldn't be cuffed.

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Changling is already a mode many people have issues and limited patience with.

 

This does nothing but encourage you to kill the changling on top of all its flaws. You can't cuff/restrain them, so why not just opt for two bullets to the head instead?

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1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

Could have sworn this was not possible. Extremely silly nonetheless. There is no rational reason this should work. 

I don't understand that statement. What should not work? What is "this"?

 

1 hour ago, Lemei said:

Changling is already a mode many people have issues and limited patience with.

This does nothing but encourage you to kill the changling on top of all its flaws. You can't cuff/restrain them, so why not just opt for two bullets to the head instead?

 

5 hours ago, UnknownMurder said:

I also suggest the sharp blades to go away when you are unconscious or you trigger blades to go away.

 

Edited by UnknownMurder
THIS and THIS.
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1 hour ago, Lemei said:

Changling is already a mode many people have issues and limited patience with.

 

This does nothing but encourage you to kill the changling on top of all its flaws. You can't cuff/restrain them, so why not just opt for two bullets to the head instead?

I think that's the point. If the ling is going full arms out it's super hostile. Tripping it up and slipping on cuffs is a bit lame.

 UMs change implies that they'd "loose" their sword mutation if they get ko'ed. I think it's just to prevent cheese (pinning down the trashing, cleaver-armed mutant and slipping on cuffs).

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25 minutes ago, Zundy said:

I think that's the point. If the ling is going full arms out it's super hostile. Tripping it up and slipping on cuffs is a bit lame.

 UMs change implies that they'd "loose" their sword mutation if they get ko'ed. I think it's just to prevent cheese (pinning down the trashing, cleaver-armed mutant and slipping on cuffs).

Yes, sir. That is the direct point. The changeling is hyperactive swinging one or two blade arms at people. The only way to get it down is by tazing it or maiming it to get the cuffs on instead of karate or aggressively grab pin down a conscious hyperactive changeling swinging blades then slip on a cuff to nullify their swinging blades and save the day.

Yes sir. If the changeling is stunned to the ground and is unconscious, their arm blade will return to a normal arm. 

Yes, sir. To prevent from quickly winning the battle by default stun. This is a common way to exhaust and require changeling to keep activating their arm blades for changeling "energy" whilst being pinned down. 

Edited by UnknownMurder
more edit
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Like has been said, this just encourages killing the changeling and makes the changeling commit to murderbone in a fight.

It would change from aggressive grab into cuffs, to aggressive grab into either dislocation of arms/legs or neck grab into throat slit. Grabbing is still the ideal outcome and you merely remove the most immediately non-lethal option in favour of the more brutal grab moves.

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50 minutes ago, Carver said:

Like has been said, this just encourages killing the changeling and makes the changeling commit to murderbone in a fight.

It would change from aggressive grab into cuffs, to aggressive grab into either dislocation of arms/legs or neck grab into throat slit. Grabbing is still the ideal outcome and you merely remove the most immediately non-lethal option in favour of the more brutal grab moves.

I don't think you read the suggestion and the thread carefully and quick to jump to your opinions. I also don't think you're willingly to give changeling a chance to fight or flee.

Most changeling incidents already occurs just like that, if a changeling stands up to the security with an arm blade. They're on the security's metagame hit list and will be hunted. Changeling rounds usually have the same outcome which I will quote next. Regarding your opinion on what you think will happen next. "Oh no, a monster killed someone and fled into the vents! The monster is not our friend that we that they were! We must kill it!" is always the crew's mindset and will always happen next. Fighting a changeling with a sword arm is no different from trying to punch and wrestle Albert Wesker with Uroboros swinging that arm at you. From what I see, people do try to wrestle and cuff the person down after changelings are stunned and unconscious on the floor and this is what exactly this suggestion is trying to do and that's good roleplay combat. Cuffing the changeling while they're up, able, hyperactive, and swinging sword and surviving this is just bad to see and was originally claimed as a bug as this was done to me as I exhausted my energy to create a new armblade for each time a security cuffs me. A whiny "get gud lmao XXDDDDD" doesn't cut it. 

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I did read it. I'm stating how I expect the 'meta' for disabling a changeling in combat to change - if cuffs don't work, then they'll progress to dislocation or use the more lethal grab moves.

It's more that I don't expect all that much to change - as if you were able to get cuffs on, you're also opened up to a myriad of other disabling tricks.

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It is not a bug, even if it seems silly. I think it was something that was not really thought about. With the changes made to ling over the last year or two, there was never any change intended for blades to STOP handcuffing, but to be able to break cuffs. If the design was to stop handcuffing altogether, this would be a bug.

I may see about making this change, though I am following the feedback presented by others. However, ling can also escape cuffs by going lesser form, can they not?

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It's not a bug or an incomplete requirement. I think UMs basically saying it's kinda of illogical to be able to slip cuffs on big blade arms which break cuffs when activated. Apparently sec has huge cuffs that fit around humongous blades. Plus it's cheese to pin the thrashing blade armed monster to the ground and slip cuffs on them.

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So here are my thoughts.

Cuffing right now causes items to drop from the cuffee's hands. When the ling items (sword/shield) are "dropped", they revert back to normal arms. This is tested and confirmed working.

Forming an arm blade or shield causes cuffs to break. Intended and working.

The shield disappears when the ling is unconscious, but not the blade. More on this later.

So with this information, we look at the rationale presented by both sides. Mechanically, changing this or not is more or less irrelevant. Why? Because if you can be cuffed, as it is currently, you can break back out as soon as you're conscious and able to. And if it WAS changed to where you could not be cuffed, not much would change, either. After all, those cuffs you put on the ling would last only until they were conscious and felt like breaking back out. Of course you would still want to cuff them, at least for the first time, as knowing that they can break back out before they demonstrate it is metagaming.  

As for the "it's cheese that you can cuff a thrashing arm" argument, I have to disagree. If you're being grabbed aggressively (prereq for cuffing), you're restrained by the person; you're no longer thrashing. 

So with the mechanical difference being very minute at best, we look to the argument of "Is this silly?" And I find myself agreeing with Garn; the arms simply aren't arm-shaped anymore. Cuffs would slide off a blade, no matter how thin or thick we headcanon the weapon to be. The shield, too, presumably turns the wrist and hand into a large surface (Even the shield description indicates a pattern of fingers), so you'd realistically have to cuff further up the arm. And since we assume you need enough "arm" to swing the blade, you can probably cuff further up the arm there, too.

So the change I will be looking into implementing is more or less as presented in the suggestion: Normal cuffs, IMO, should not be able to secure a ling who has a shield or blade out. However, zipties, tape, and cable cuffs I will still allow to work, as those are more elastic and presume you are applying cuffs to the bits that you can actually reach. I will also probably change the arm blade to retract when the user goes unconscious, to make cuffing them when fully disabled by pain and damage an easier venture. If they went through the work of disabling a ling, they should be able to cuff them. And I don't have a problem with this, as cuffs are no longer a round-ender for ling. Either item or form (lesser or horror) allows you freedom. 

I do not know when I will do this change or if this will be the final implementation, but this is my thought on the matter as of right now.

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3 hours ago, Doxxmedearly said:

So the change I will be looking into implementing is more or less as presented in the suggestion: Normal cuffs, IMO, should not be able to secure a ling who has a shield or blade out. However, zipties, tape, and cable cuffs I will still allow to work, as those are more elastic and presume you are applying cuffs to the bits that you can actually reach. I will also probably change the arm blade to retract when the user goes unconscious, to make cuffing them when fully disabled by pain and damage an easier venture. If they went through the work of disabling a ling, they should be able to cuff them. And I don't have a problem with this, as cuffs are no longer a round-ender for ling. Either item or form (lesser or horror) allows you freedom. 

This makes more sense and is generally acceptable. Zipties, tapes, and cable cuffs are indeed elastic. I do not see an issue with regular cuffs being unable to cuff however zipties, tapes, and cable cuffs can cuff. 

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