Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) BYOND Key: Jackboot Staff BYOND Key: Nightmare_00 Reason for complaint: Insulting me in LOOC, discipling me for using a flash to break up a lethal-intent looking fight in escape/ignoring Nasir's outrageous behaviour. Evidence/logs/etc: As Greg Ryan, I had been promoted to CMO mid-shift with allowance from the admins. The shift after that was a bit uneventful as I sorted up the messy medbay and did what medbay and CMO's are wont to do. When the shuttle was being called and we were all in escape I was sitting next to the botonist. Nasir walks up and - from all I can see - begins insulting the botonist and asking to shove his foot up his arse. Things escalate, and a fight breaks out. Nasir uses his claws and they start running around escape. I called security 2~3 times on the radio, but there was no response. My HUD showed the botonist's health drop to about half, so I jumped in with the full intent of getting the botonist out of there to seal up his wounds. The fight gets ridiculous, with people slipping left and right. I flashed Nasir once multiple times, and tried to grab at the Botonist to get him out. Each time someone(s) was in the way, or the botonist tried to continue the fight and I was unable to flash him. But the fact was Nasir kept getting back up and instantly going back to clawing the dude's face. In a fit of IC outrage and OOC annoyance at how stupid it is to just shrug off being flashed multiple times, I flashed him a consecutive four times to make sure he got the point and then went to deal with the botonist's wounds. The botonist was near critical, missing a large chunk of his blood and having his face and chest completely bleeding and messed up. (There was about 40~50 brute damage for each area iirc.) By now the captain has arrived, but Nasir still waltz up towards myself and the botonist in the hallway so I flash him once more in my IC anger to keep the "brute" away from the patient being treated. This patient now has multiple broken bones. During this cool-down period, I'm insulted in LOOC by Nightmare who says "This is why you lost your whitelist." It's double insulting given that there is zero action being taken at the random violence that Nasir instigated. For the purpose of full disclosure and added context, my conversation with Nightmare_00 after the incident are provided here. The logs are long, and I was by now extremely annoyed OOC, so my words became terse. PM to-Admins: Okay, this is stupid. How do you expect my character to sit back and watch someone beat the shit out of someone else, snapping their bones and going in with the intent desire to KILL THEM over BANANA PEELS? How am *I* yelled at for using a simple flash to try and break it up and get the dude out of there to fix his broken, profusely bleeding face? "This is why you lost whitelist" is the most bullshit insult I've heard all day. Standing by and watching psychotic behaviour is not good RP, it's the sign of further psychosis. If I'm absolutely barred from interfering at all in any situation and letting people beat the shit out of each other, then I have no desire to pretend this is high RP and use my characters with actual empathy for other human beings. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: Who said he was going to die? And if you had looked at the situation, you'd see that the botanist attacked way more than Nasir, also, Nasir keep backing up and you were chasing him. Also AFTER the fight was over you kept flashing him. So that's what I have the issue with. PM to-Nightmare 00: My HUD and health scanner. He lost a large chunk of his blood and had multiple broken bones. A few more scratches and he'd be stuck in crit and or dead. ANd I didn't see that. IC'ly Nasir walked up, insulted him, then smashed a bottle over his head. I had to flash him MULTIPLE times and he CONTINUED to chase the botonist around escape. PM to-Nightmare 00: My concern was getting the botonist away and sealing his bleeding wounds. PM to-Nightmare 00: I don't have magical admin sight that gives me full context of the entire situation. I am limited to what my character hears and sees around him or hears on the radio. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: When you flashed him, and he was on the round that is when the botanist kept punching him. Here is the main deal, whatever happened during the fight, sure. If you wanted to take the botanist side, then feel free. Its the repeated flashing /after/ the fight was over that the main issue is PM to-Nightmare 00: I was IC'ly and OOC'ly super annoyed that everytime I flashed him he immediately got back up and went to scratching up the botonist's face. So yeah, I flashed him a bunch to give him the message to knock it the hell off. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: Because the botanist kept hitting him after you flashed him. You don't do things because you get ooc'ly super annoyed. If a sec officer repeated flash someoen, we'd have a problem. Why do you think we wouldn't have a problem with a head of staff doing it? PM to-Nightmare 00: I flashed the botonist as well, but missed. And usually sec have cuffs to prevent the person from getting back up and scratching his eyes out. But if you expect me to deal with insults in LOOC over 'this is why you lost your whitelist' when I'm IC'ly trying to prevent two people from murdering each other - and a random fight over fucking banana peels is overlooked - then I'll just not bother. Empathy is apparently bad RP, so I'll abstain from bothering to deal with anything as would make sense in an IC standpoint and just walk the line of psychotic indifference. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: I'm talking about the spam flashing in the hallway below the chaple after the fight was over PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: When everyone was standing there, and you walked over and started flashing PM to-Nightmare 00: The one flash when he acted aggressively and walked up to the severely wounded man? The one flash? If you can call that spam flashing. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: You flashed four times. I have logs PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: Four, in sequence. One after the other PM to-Nightmare 00: Once the botonist was dragged outside science I flashed him ONCE. The four flashes was right before that when he threw a punch again, unless the attack logs for me were misread while i was trying to get to the botonist and him without stepping on the bananas everyone was throwing around. PM to-Nightmare 00: It was the IC "Stay down god damn it" since I didn't have cuffs. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: Jackboot, everyone was watching. The four flashes was after the fight was over and everyone was standing around PM to-Nightmare 00: My bar saw more attack notifications and people were still slipping. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: Well, that pretty much draws a close to this conversation. The flashing you did at the end seems unnessarily agressive. Your intent isn't the most important thing, what people actually see is. Just keeping that in mind you will be fine. PM to-Nightmare 00: If I'm given shit for flashing someone to break up a fight with a non-lethal, non-harming flash, and the fact that beating someone to near death is something that garners no attention or action? Where the hell are those priorities? I can't make mistakes when trying to stop a brutal beat-down but the beat down itself is fine? PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: The beat down had built up to it. It wasn't just a random run up and 'lolstab' PM to-Nightmare 00: I didn't see that. All I saw was the botonist being suddenly assaulted with lethal force. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: But spam flashing people, espically as a head, when people are aruging is highly frustrating. Much more than a fight PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: You keep saying lethal force. PM to-Nightmare 00: Several times I've IC'ly and OOC'ly questioned why an individual is breaking someone's legs or beating the shit out of them and no one cares. And it was lethal force. He would had died if it continued. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: People fight, and people don't high. You giving the botanist the flash, and trying to take mattering into your own hands was fueling the fire PM to-Nightmare 00: I didn't GIVE him the flash. I SLIPPED and it dropped out of my hands and he picked it up. I disarmed him and took it back. PM to-Nightmare 00: Hence my IC and OOC frustration over falling every 5 seconds. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: The point is, is that the flash ended up in his hands because you deciding to step in PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: You were adding fuel to the fire, which was causing the fire to keep going PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: Fight* PM to-Nightmare 00: How the hell is trying to defuse the situation since security is nowhere to be seen worthy of admin-insults because it went wrong? PM to-Nightmare 00: The man was injured in a seemingly random attack. The priority was getting him away to fix his bleeding wounds. Dr. Ryan doesn't care if there was build up, you're harming someone and that person needs to be moved out of that situation. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: And that isn't a problem PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: You spam flashing when there is no fight or threat is the problem PM to-Nightmare 00: There WAS a fight. I didn't SEE that the fight was over. All I saw was attack logs. Dr. Ryan was extremely angry at this situation and flashed him ONCE when the botonist was outside the scienec bay and the captain was there with the taser trained on him. According to the proper RP way to do it, it would have been better if I beat the shit out of Nasir because it had 'build up' rather than flash him once. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: If you had decided to try to attack Nasir, then people would probably still think that's shit for a CMO to do. You spam flashed him when the fight was over. End of story. That's it, Jack PM to-Nightmare 00: If you have the logs then provide me with the logs. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: You aren't seeing the main issue. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: The logs of you spam flashing? PM to-Nightmare 00: The main issue seems to be that it's okay to be fucking psychotic and violent but not use a flash to try and non-violently stop the situation to heal an extremely wounded man. And the logs of that situation in total, from the bottle smash to the shuttle boarding, please. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: I'm not going to go digging though the logs just to prove a point. And i've explained the problem more than once, if you aren't able to see the issue then there's not much else I can do for you. PM to-Nightmare 00: I'd like the logs to provide in my complaint. PrimaryAdmin PM from-Nightmare 00: Logs will be provided as needed, from your complaint. PM to-Nightmare 00: Thanks. Additional remarks: Given that Nasir has consistently shown to be randomly violent and extremely aggressive to the point that I have no idea why he's ever hired, singling me out for making a mistake in using a flash aggressively to prevent him from beating the shit out of someone is ridiculous. Every shift I have with Nasir has him cussing out command staff or other crew. As CE I've had him join the station and cuss me out, and there was a previous incident where he waltz into an unrelated situation where security was trying to arrest someone and jumped in, trying to claw at multiple security officers and continuing to get up and fight after being shot multiple times. This gives me zero surprise when I see a 'random' act of violence by this character. I have no way to tell if there was RP behind it - and with Nasir there usually isn't. But that's not the issue that I'm angry about: it's being treated like a child by Nightmare_00 when my behaviour was guided by Greg Ryan's IC personality and desire to see the fight ended and using a non-lethal way to try and end the confrontation, and being yelled at for that because I'm apparently expected to simply sit back and watch someone go into crit or even get murdered before I'm allowed to care. I'm willing to accept that I may have used the flash too many times - and it did end up in the botonist's hands briefly when I slipped and dropped it - but that should be no excuse to try and insult me in LOOC and discipline me over that. The priorities appear completely messed up and it gives me no incentive to even join as my utilitarian characters. For a high RP server there's a large trend of simply continuing the sociopathic behaviour typical of goonstation, and we're all expected to just shrug and deal with it. I've watched someone break someone's legs with a metal bat in a previous round, and people got extremely mad at me for disarming her and throwing the bat away. This is attitude that I'm fine with when it's just players, to an extent, because it's a carry-over from other servers and trying to change attitudes is hard. But this shouldn't be the behaviour of an admin who is supposed to recognize reasoned response to force, regulations, and a personal drive of seeing violence stopped, and emotions can all mesh together into the priorities of an individual. Edited October 11, 2014 by Marlon Phoenix Link to comment
Frances Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Alright, I tried to recover the logs as best as I could. Here they are: [21:47:16]SAY: Nasir Ha'kim/Nightmare 00 : Hey. Asshole [21:47:25]SAY: Nasir Ha'kim/Nightmare 00 : You motherrr fuck [21:47:45]SAY: Nasir Ha'kim/Nightmare 00 : Can you take His foot up yourrr ass? [21:48:09]SAY: Greg Ryan/Jackboot : Security to escape! [21:48:14]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:48:18]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:48:19]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:48:20]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) clawed Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:48:21]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:48:40]ATTACK: Nasir Ha'kim (nightmare00) was hit by a thrown the banana peel, last touched by Joachim White (mocheeze) (JMP) [21:48:41]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) scratched Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:48:46]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:48:48]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:48:54]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) scratched Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:48:56]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) clawed Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:48:57]SAY: Greg Ryan/Jackboot : Stop! [21:48:58]ATTACK: Joachim White (mocheeze) Used the flash to flash Nasir Ha'kim (nightmare00) (JMP) [21:49:00]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:01]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:02]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:03]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:04]ATTACK: Jackboot/(Greg Ryan) disarmed Joachim White (mocheeze) - JMP [21:49:05]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:06]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:09]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:13]ATTACK: Jackboot/(Greg Ryan) disarmed Joachim White (mocheeze) - JMP [21:49:14]ATTACK: Jackboot/(Greg Ryan) disarmed Joachim White (mocheeze) - JMP [21:49:22]SAY: Greg Ryan/Jackboot : Security to ESCAPE! [21:49:27]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:28]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:30]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:31]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:44]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) scratched Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:49:45]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) scratched Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:49:47]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) clawed Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:49:48]SAY: Greg Ryan/Jackboot : EVERYONE STOP THIS NOW. [21:49:48]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) scratched Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:49:49]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) clawed Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:49:50]ATTACK: Mocheeze/(Joachim White) punched Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) - JMP [21:49:51]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) scratched Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:49:53]ATTACK: Greg Ryan (jackboot) Used the flash to flash Roy Wyatt (keinto) (JMP) [21:50:02]SAY: Greg Ryan/Jackboot : He's critial, now. [21:50:03]ATTACK: Nightmare 00/(Nasir Ha'kim) clawed Mocheeze/(Joachim White) - JMP [21:50:03]EMOTE: Joachim White/Mocheeze : Joachim White screams! [21:50:05]ATTACK: Greg Ryan (jackboot) Used the flash to flash Nasir Ha'kim (nightmare00) (JMP) [21:50:06]ATTACK: Greg Ryan (jackboot) Used the flash to flash Nasir Ha'kim (nightmare00) (JMP) [21:50:07]ATTACK: Greg Ryan (jackboot) Used the flash to flash Nasir Ha'kim (nightmare00) (JMP) [21:50:09]ATTACK: Greg Ryan (jackboot) Used the flash to flash Nasir Ha'kim (nightmare00) (JMP) [21:50:24]EMOTE: Unknown (as Joachim White)/Mocheeze : Unknown (as Joachim White) simply grpips his face and stands still, unmoving. [21:50:26]SAY: Greg Ryan/Jackboot : Nasir started it. [21:50:42]EMOTE: Unknown (as Joachim White)/Mocheeze : Unknown (as Joachim White) shouts out in rueful pain as you mend his face! [21:50:44]SAY: Greg Ryan/Jackboot : Nasir is the instigator. [21:50:44]EMOTE: Nasir Ha'kim/Nightmare 00 : Nasir Ha'kim spits "Bitch." [21:50:52]SAY: Greg Ryan/Jackboot : Plesae have him detained. [21:50:55]SAY: Vira De Santos/OneOneThreeEight : Who threw the first punch? [21:50:56]SAY: Greg Ryan/Jackboot : He beat thi man with a bottle. [21:50:57]SAY: Greg Ryan/Jackboot : Nasir. [21:51:02]SAY: Nasir Ha'kim/Nightmare 00 : Nasirrr didn't instigate shit bitch [21:51:16]SAY: Nasir Ha'kim/Nightmare 00 : This fuckerrr kept slipping Him with peel. Here's a few things I'd like us to observe from this: -The character who instigated this was Mocheeze's botanist. I would like to point out that there were no previous logs from that botanist that round, aside from two unrelated sentences being spoken earlier. It would seem this character joined the round, and immediately proceeded to try to slip people on banana peels. -The sequence of events (left out of the logs, as these didn't leave logs) goes as follow: Botanist slips Tajaran on banana peel, Tajaran reacts by slamming botanist in glass, botanist begins punching the shit out of Tajaran. -I would like to report that in my history on the server, I've never witnessed Nasir instigate conflict. He reacts to it explosively, which causes him to end up in it often. But I never found that the force used by Nightmare was unjustifiable, ICly. -If I were to intervene in this as an admin, the only person who I would really consider at fault here was Mocheeze (the botanist), because he had no business trying to slip people with banana peels at escape, with no RP. -Both Nasir and the CMO's (Greg) reactions were justified (fighting back against an opponent, and using whatever means were available to break up a fight, respectively). -Nasir was only flashed on one incidence, the quadruple flash which brought him down and ended the fight. -No bottles were used during the fight. I searched the logs specifically for the message that shows up upon one being used as a weapon, and found no trace of one during that incident. -Both the botanist and the CMO used a flash at some point during the fight (the botanist first). It would be interesting to know how either came in possession of a flash, seeing as neither of them would be expected to have one. Link to comment
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) It's mildly amusing that people forget the CMO gets a flash from his locker - that's where Dr. Ryan got it from. And I stated in the original post though it may have been lost in the mountains of text - that briefly during the fight Greg slipped and the botanist picked up his flash and used it on Nasir until I got up and disarmed it from him. Unless he flashed Nasir before I fell - I only saw him flash someone when he was in possession of the flash I dropped. And as to the bottle not being used - that's very strange. I remember hearing the sound of a bottle being smashed, and then the fight broke out. I might have been mistaken in that instance. I've seen Nasir instigate conflict several times, if only verbally and not physically. Previously - awhile back ago - I also saw him randomly walk into a situation and make it explode with no reason or justification, attacking the entire security staff and continuing to attack them even after he was shot multiple times. His character is violent and has anger problems to an extraordinarily high degree. I have to disagree that his actions were justifiable - if I am disciplined by nightmare for not waiting for security, why is Nasir permitted to take such violent actions instead of notifying security that he's being slipped by banana peels? I can see a disarm/shove being appropriate, because IRL if you're mad you can shove someone then storm off. But fighting in the middle of a crowd, and getting back up and continuing to fight after being knocked on your ass several times? That's extraordinarily excessive. We have a disarm intent, and it should be used more, especially with since Tajarans have claws and do far more damage in meleé. As I said originally, I had no way to judge how much RP the botanist put into it. IC'ly, I saw only what transpired in front of me. In the end, Nightmare then uses his staff position to justify his character's behaviour and publicly insult me over my own actions and bringing up my whitelist strip in a public setting which I found extremely demeaning. Edited October 11, 2014 by Marlon Phoenix Link to comment
Nightmare Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I've seen Nasir instigate conflict several times, if only verbally and not physically. Previously - awhile back ago - I also saw him randomly walk into a situation and make it explode with no reason or justification, attacking the entire security staff and continuing to attack them even after he was shot multiple times You say hat but that isn't an exact example, unless you can actually say what happened I don't actually think that's true. Nasir does have anger issues, but he doesn't start problems, he just handles them very poorly. And if you wish to talk about IRL, if someone made me slip on a peel, I think fighting is a perfectly reasonable response. But lets say if what you are saying is true, Nasir shoved the botanist into the glass, which broke. The botanist then hit Nasir three times, before he struck back. He's not just going to sit there and be assaulted. My response was 100% justified. And note, there was no displining that happened. You weren't warned, you weren't ahelped. In which way did I use my staff position to justify my actions? Link to comment
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 "Nasir shoved the botanist into the glass, which broke." You just admitted to instigating the immediate fight. You assaulted him and refused to report him to security or wait for a security officer, then try to discipline me over using a flash on you after calling security and briefly waiting for them. Why are you permitted to "react poorly" but I'm given crap for "reacting poorly"? Heck, imo the botanist is justified in hitting back since you shoved him into a glass window so hard it shattered. The only complaint I'd have for him in that specific moment is that I'd rather it have been disarm intent, or not have continued to the extent that I needed to personally intervene to keep you from killing him. edit: And you used your staff position - as I perceived it - by telling me that this is the reason I lost my whitelist and generally lecturing me in LOOC about the situation that just transpired. You are a staff member and as such your words come with the authority of your position. Honestly I'd have preferred an ahelp because that had no place in LOOC. You took your frustration at what happened in IC and took it out on me OOC. Link to comment
Nightmare Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Yes, you said yourself that an 'IRL response' would be to shove him and storm off. That's exactly what Nasir did. You and the botanist chased him, where the botanist kept striking him and you flashed him. Again, there was no discipline, there was no ahelp toward you, and there was no warning of any kind issued. So please, tell me where was the discipline? I never said the botanist wasn't justified in hitting back, I'd expect him to. You say you'd rather have had it on disarm intent, but I disagree. So there is no end to that arugement there, he struck Nasir, so Nasir struck him back. And you 'personally' intervened right as the fight started, where you and the botanist chased Nasir, after he was trying to run away, but again you see it how you will. I'm still lost as to where I'm using my staff position to justify my actions, I'd like you to explain that. I'd also like you to explain clearly what your complaint is, because saying 'The only complaint I'd have, is that I'd rather it have been on disarm intent' you clearly have more complaints than that. Link to comment
Frances Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 "Nasir shoved the botanist into the glass, which broke." You just admitted to instigating the immediate fight. No. The fight was caused by the botanist doing something dumb he had no business doing. Nasir did react by physically bullying him, but he was withing the right to, rp-wise. Why are you permitted to "react poorly" but I'm given crap for "reacting poorly"?The quadruple flash was excessive, especially given it had no precedent. (No matter how much running there was, Nasir wasn't neutralized until that point.) Especially as a head - there's nothing wrong with losing your shit, as a PC. But PCs in positions of power (heads, sec) should really not do it as often, and certainly not in situations that don't personally involve them. And you used your staff position - as I perceived it - by telling me that this is the reason I lost my whitelist and generally lecturing me in LOOC about the situation that just transpired. You are a staff member and as such your words come with the authority of your position. Honestly I'd have preferred an ahelp because that had no place in LOOC. You took your frustration at what happened in IC and took it out on me OOC.I think staff are players too, and are allowed to express their opinions - which is exactly why this wasn't done in ahelp, which would have carried authority, which wasn't the point there. In hindsight, I'd actually say that Nightmare was in the wrong with his complaint, given that you were simply trying to break up a fight which was becoming a major, immediate threat, with no security around (the complaint was about you overstepping your bounds, which you did not). But I don't think that takes away his right to comment on a situation immediately - I do believe you had the chance to discuss the issue in more depth, and in a more mature manner, over PMs afterwards. Link to comment
TishinaStalker Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I've seen Nasir instigate conflict several times, if only verbally and not physically. Previously - awhile back ago - I also saw him randomly walk into a situation and make it explode with no reason or justification, attacking the entire security staff and continuing to attack them even after he was shot multiple times Pardon to intrude, but is this that same rev round where you turned the entire station on Security without even being a revolutionary during the incident? Because I still remember the way that you got shot about four times by the detective's rubber bullets, tased and stunned by Security personnel, but Nasir kept fighting Security every time he got back up while (ICly) seeming PERFECTLY fine because he refused to back down? At a point like that, NOBODY would want to get up. Actually, it probably wouldn't be an issue of "want to", it would be an issue of being unable to stand up. I only bring this up because the main part of Jackboot's complaint is: Reason for complaint: ...ignoring Nasir's outrageous behaviour. This is simply another event where I have seen "outrageous behaviour" coming from Nasir. I can understand feeling ballsy enough, thinking that he could take on three officers, but continuing his assault without relenting after being shot, stunned, AND tased multiple times? Please no. This is "outrageous behaviour" at its finest. I apologize if I sounded like I was trying to offend in some way, shape or form, but that was not my intention. This is my 2 cents on one of the important points of Jackboot's complaint: Nasir's behavior. Link to comment
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) The quadruple flash came because Nasir kept getting up after every previous flash and continuing the fight. I had no cuffs, very little ability to run around in the super crowded area (where at any moment more bystanders could jump in to be 'heros'), and since my character is strict about as little violence as possible extremely limited options in how to keep Nasir down. But I had to keep him down, because the botanist was profusely bleeding and his face was now mangled. So I quadruple flashed, and it worked: the fight ended. I have to disagree that this is seen as excessive when the level of violence shown by Nasir is considered fair game rp-wise. If someone keeps getting up after I tase them and try to deal with the other problem, I'm going to hold down on the trigger and keep holding it down until I am absolutely sure they get the point about continuing their behaviour. As a Head I can understand the desire that they are far more restrained than the average crew. But Greg Ryan is a healer and humanitarian first and Head second - that's his entire philosophy, carrying with it the positive and negative aspects. Being a clown with banana peels does not at all justify having your face and chest lacerated and face smashed into a window. It justifies getting you in thrown in a brig and stunned if you try that stupidity on a security officer. In my opinion Greg's escalation of force was far more justifiable than Nasir's in this context - I never upgraded to harm intent, and never attempted anything more than the flashing. The quadruple flash is something I don't do often, so the desire to have it rare is still followed. Nasir is the only one Greg Ryan has ever been this violent with - and it was for the safety of both involved. Edited October 11, 2014 by Marlon Phoenix Link to comment
Nightmare Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 The only time that Nasir has been in a fight, against security like that is in the holodeck, where Security kept harassing Nasir, and two or three of his friends and it turned into a brawl. People were shot, people were arrested. That's the only time he's gotten into a fight with more than one person and didn't try to run that I can recall. And no, that isn't "outrageous behavior", point is Nasir only explodes as a purely reaction state, I make that that he never starts the problems, that is his characterstic type. And he never keeps the problem going, anytime he's gotten into a fight, any time they fall He backs up. Its on them when they get up and keep swinging at him. So no, I disagree on all accounts of Nasir being in the wrong of any outrageous behavior. And Nasir's upgrade to harm intent, even in this case was /after/ the botanist started punching him first. So yes, that was a justifiable response. Link to comment
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 The only time that Nasir has been in a fight, against security like that is in the holodeck, where Security kept harassing Nasir, and two or three of his friends and it turned into a brawl. People were shot, people were arrested. That's the only time he's gotten into a fight with more than one person and didn't try to run that I can recall. And no, that isn't "outrageous behavior", point is Nasir only explodes as a purely reaction state, I make that that he never starts the problems, that is his characterstic type. And he never keeps the problem going, anytime he's gotten into a fight, any time they fall He backs up. Its on them when they get up and keep swinging at him. So no, I disagree on all accounts of Nasir being in the wrong of any outrageous behavior. And Nasir's upgrade to harm intent, even in this case was /after/ the botanist started punching him first. So yes, that was a justifiable response. I'm trying to not accuse you of stating blatantly untrue things, but your posts have been extremely contradictory. You admit you hit the botanist first during the confrontation by hitting his head into glass, and now say you simply defended yourself. You say that you tried to de escalate and run away from the fight, but you continued to stay on harm intent and chase the botanist around. And as to the other incidents - Tishina is correct. I was the detective in that incident that had to shoot you four times because you got up four times and continued to try and assault security staff. We were doing an arrest completely unrelated to you on the holodeck, and you walked in and decided to take the suspect's side and threatened security. You were 100% the instigator in that incident. In another incident when I joined the station as Richard Johnson, you ignored me - your Chief Engineer - and when pressed on your silence you exploded at him. This came with Dick doing NOTHING to you beforehand. When he said "You know I can uh, fire you for this, right?" you responded with "Not a problem. He'll get job back anyway." I asked you about it in LOOC, and you said you had a problem with my character, which was borderline metagrudge because I never agreed to have anything Dick did to offend Nasir remain canon between us. Link to comment
Nightmare Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Right, you seem to be failing to understand what I'm saying. Perhaps I should be a bit more clear. In this case, Yes, Nasir was the first person to make physical contact. The botanist, however, started the problem by tripping him in the hallway. After Nasir shoved the botanist, he got up and instantly started swinging, so Nasir backpedalled which swinging back. When you took out your flash, Nasir ran away but slipped on a peel and started getting punched. He got up and took two steps back, and swung again, and that's where you flashed him. The only time Nasir 'chased' the botanist is when he was brought into the hallway near the end of the fight. In the holodeck thing Nasir was /not/ 100% the insigsator, the fact that security followed them from the hallway, and kept harassing Nasir, Shayla, and Krisha, while trying to find any excuse to bully them and arrest them makes you the instigator. And Nasir was related in this event because he was involved with it the entire time. He only got physical, after security did and then the brawl happened. And your Chief engineer was being a pain in the ass to Nasir, so yes he was being slient. Yes, Nasir was uncaring about your threats to fire him because he's completely aware as to who the captain was that round and knew that they would see how full of shit your CE was. So he was unafraid. And no, I have no need to metagrudge against you. Nasir doesn't like your CE, how he does things, or how he talks. Its as simple as that. Link to comment
TishinaStalker Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 The only time that Nasir has been in a fight, against security like that is in the holodeck, where Security kept harassing Nasir, and two or three of his friends and it turned into a brawl. People were shot, people were arrested. That's the only time he's gotten into a fight with more than one person and didn't try to run that I can recall. And no, that isn't "outrageous behavior" I do not mean to be rude, but you didn't bring up the most important part of my post; what I pointed as being Nasir's "outrageous behaviour": You were shot, tased, and stunned several times, but you continued to keep fighting relentlessly. You never took Nasir's pain into account as you charged straight at Security the moment you got back up. I don't think it matters how badass someone is, but you don't ignore rubber bullets which can potentially break bones, leave awful bruises, and then all of the electricity coursing through your body from the tasers and stun batons. This is literally the kind of thing you see in a D&D campaign when a DM tells you "Do a fortitude save", you get a natural 20, and your DM decides to make you look awesome. Aurora being a Heavy RP server, I don't see how this would work to begin with. Link to comment
Nightmare Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Nasir's pain was taken into account plenty. That is what the time spent on the ground, or blacked out is represented by, rubber bullets fired out a pistol won't break bones, im afraid, bruises maybe, but you wouldn't be stopped by bruises while you are full of adrenaline, yes you would be knocked down, but again that is already taken into account for. So, no I'm not going to have him remain on the ground for half an hour doing /me's while him and his friends are being attacked by security because they feel they can. Mind you, in this case Nasir never scratched anyone. Only pushed them, I'd like you to keep that in mind. Link to comment
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) Nasir's pain was taken into account plenty. That is what the time spent on the ground, or blacked out is represented by, rubber bullets fired out a pistol won't break bones, im afraid, bruises maybe, but you wouldn't be stopped by bruises while you are full of adrenaline, yes you would be knocked down, but again that is already taken into account for. So, no I'm not going to have him remain on the ground for half an hour doing /me's while him and his friends are being attacked by security because they feel they can. Mind you, in this case Nasir never scratched anyone. Only pushed them, I'd like you to keep that in mind. No. No no. You did not at all take Nasir's pain into account. You didn't stay on the ground any longer than the flash kept you on the ground. That is the second biggest reason for my complaint with his behaviour: You ignore RP rules regarding RP'ing pain because you play Nasir off as a bad-ass. I've never seen him wince, never seem him keel over, never seen him do ANYTHING in response to pain except what game mechanics MAKE you do. He only continues to spew out obscenities and threats while he's got electricity coursing through him, a blinding flash in his eyes, and bruised ribs from rubber bullets. If you RP'd pain correctly, you'd have remained on the ground and held your eyes or otherwise be incapacitated from the flashing. Then I'd be able to flash the botanist if he tried to punch you while you were down, lecture you both, and seal both your wounds while we waited for security. But you didn't, and I had to quadruple flash you. Even that didn't get a response from you. All you did was threaten the CMO and say if he flashes you again you'll show him what hurt is. That is ridiculous. If I did this with Constantine, you'd adminhelp me about ignoring pain and doing poor RP. The botanist showed better than RP than Nasir when Dr. Ryan was fixing his face, with his screaming and actual pain RP. EDIT: And unless things work different in Aurora code, rubber bullets can break bones. Edited October 11, 2014 by Marlon Phoenix Link to comment
Nightmare Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 That is ridiculous. If I did this with Constantine, you'd adminhelp me about ignoring pain and doing poor RP. That is a 100% lie, because I've seen you ignore pain RP /plenty/ and have never ahelped you. Nasir pain RP's fine when I do it. Im not going to spend 30 minutes of /me over a stubbed toe. I pain RP when I pain RP. But I never flat out ignore it. And yelling curses while in pain is a logical response. However, that being said I'm not going to get into a back and forth about 'My RP is better than yours'. If you feel my RP is lacking, well I'm sorry for you, other people disagree with you I'm sure. And He threatened you after he got back to his feet and they started walking away, so yea. Nasir gives out a lot of threats. That's how it is. Link to comment
TishinaStalker Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Nasir's pain was taken into account plenty. That is what the time spent on the ground, or blacked out is represented by, rubber bullets fired out a pistol won't break bones, im afraid, bruises maybe, but you wouldn't be stopped by bruises while you are full of adrenaline, yes you would be knocked down, but again that is already taken into account for. So, no I'm not going to have him remain on the ground for half an hour doing /me's while him and his friends are being attacked by security because they feel they can. Mind you, in this case Nasir never scratched anyone. Only pushed them, I'd like you to keep that in mind. I said "potentially break bones", not definitely will break bones. I believe that with all of the bullets, stun batons, and tasers that you took, Nasir would've required ample time to recover as tasers and stun batons are made explicitly to take you down and keep you down. The incident on the holodeck literally lasted no more than five - eight minutes before they finally decided to cuff you (don't even know WHY they took that long as I had been playing a Cadet that round), and take you away; during which time you were resisting, yelling, and screaming at Security. Not that the screaming is bad I guess, but what I'm trying to get to is that you literally need to tone down Nasir's "badassery". I've seen you issue /death threats/ to Security personnel for attempting to arrest someone for something as petty as comms abuse (a three minute sentence if memory serves me, that's literally a slap on the wrist and a three minute break!). I remember this explicitly because I had been talking with Yeah Chris about that over Skype. I did not want to file a complaint because I think someone's name alone coming up in a complaint has to be humiliating or embarrassing to a certain degree, so I told Chris to please talk to you about this issue instead. I still have the log from the Skype chat where he described that night that one of the biggest problems on the server was the "tough as shit catpeople" on the server. The fact that he brought that issue up at that time while I was bringing up your out-of-the-blue death threats simply shows that, that behavior is an issue, and it still seems like one I think as I've seen you trying to claw people without stopping as I arrive to arrest you as an Officer or watch helplessly as a doctor. One time you kept trying to attack the guy when I tried pulling him away from you to heal him in the bar! Basically, all I'm saying is to tone down Nasir's "badass" levels because it just seems over-the-top and ridiculous. Link to comment
Nightmare Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Sorry, but I don't believe that I was attacking someone while he was unable to defend himself. I simply that this is untrue. I also don't believe that Nasir has given 'death threats' for a sec officer trying to do a 100% legal and legit arrest for someone abusing comms, I also think that is untrue. Nasir gets into issues with people, when they bring an issue for it to happen. He never will go up to someone and say "You, I don't like you're shoes. Lets fight." He simply doesn't back down from fights. The only reason, I believe that you seem to think this is the case, is because when people try to fight Nasir, he does more damage than them so it seems like he would have struck them many more times than they did. But no, once they are down and unable to fight, He does not keep pursing them to kill them. Nasir's 'badass' levels are directly equal to the level of shit that people throw at him. Its as simple as that. Link to comment
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Sorry, but I don't believe that I was attacking someone while he was unable to defend himself. I simply that this is untrue. I also don't believe that Nasir has given 'death threats' for a sec officer trying to do a 100% legal and legit arrest for someone abusing comms, I also think that is untrue. Nasir gets into issues with people, when they bring an issue for it to happen. He never will go up to someone and say "You, I don't like you're shoes. Lets fight." He simply doesn't back down from fights. The only reason, I believe that you seem to think this is the case, is because when people try to fight Nasir, he does more damage than them so it seems like he would have struck them many more times than they did. But no, once they are down and unable to fight, He does not keep pursing them to kill them. Nasir's 'badass' levels are directly equal to the level of shit that people throw at him. Its as simple as that. Calling myself and Tishina liars isn't constructive. Nor is your repeated attempts to be passive aggressive with your statements when speaking to me and justifying everything you do. To err is human, but you've not acknowledged that you've ever made an error with Nasir. I fully acknowledge that I've made mistakes, and have made efforts to alter my behaviour to prevent the same mistakes from repeating themselves in the future. You've not done any of this. I started out this complaint simply wanting an apology and a simple statement that you'll utilize disarm intent more in the future, but with how you've been handling this I would prefer an assurance by Frances or another admin above your rank that your IC behaviour (Explicitly with Nasir) will be modified to be more in line with what is expected from RP because I don't trust that you understand the problems associated with this character. Link to comment
TishinaStalker Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Nightmare, I very distinctly remember needing to push you down, strapping the dying man (whose face AND skull you broke) to a roller bed, and running away to Medical in fear of you attacking me for X or Y reason because I pushed you down. At this point you are flat out calling me a liar on things that I and other players have witnessed. The officers you issued death threats against at the abuse comms incident? Rebel 1254 and StupidGeekz. You said that you were going to claw their eyes out if they didn't leave the lady, who they had orders to arrest for abuse of comms, alone and left. Prior to the arrest, StupidGeekz (at that time playing Bruce Hachert) was attempting to warn the lady to stop abusing comms because he did not wish to arrest her, and Nasir got all huffy and puffy about this. I assume because he felt his friend was being unjustly accused, and I can understand this. I would also get huffy and puffy if somebody accused my friends of false things, but I wouldn't immediately start talking back that harsh to officers nor threaten to gouge their eyes out. If it helps, the night I had been discussing that with Yeah Chris was on August 7th, 2014, so this comms abuse incident must've happened either that night or the past few nights. I have no IC logs, only vivid memories because I do not forget things like this, and I do not enjoy lying. Furthermore, I definitely do not enjoy being called a liar because I wouldn't say something to bring you down without just reason. I have offered you my thoughts on Nasir's behavior. You can take it, or you can leave it. It won't bother me in the end because ultimately it is your character, and I will not be constantly fretting over your character. Please have a nice night and if you thought my language insulted you somehow, then please do notify me posthaste, and I will apologize for it as I am not here to offend anyone. Link to comment
Nightmare Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Your objection to my character is noted. Is there anything more to this complaint threat that should be covered? Link to comment
TishinaStalker Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) I do hope you meant thread instead of threat... I haven't offended you somehow, right? Some people perceive me saying this over the net as sarcasm, and I just don't want that thought on my head because I find it to be a burden in my mind. I guess I sorta just want to hear you say it so that my mind will be at ease. Aside from that, now we wait for FFrances and/or Skull to give their thoughts on the complaint, and possibly conclude it. EDIT: I also believe that the low blow comment to Jackboot is definitely not administrator behavior. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a primary administrator, right? It might just be me, but I always thought that all staff should be polite and professional when handling other players in order to avoid a situation getting worse. The way it was said was perceived more as a personal attack than a form of criticism. Everyone enjoys constructive criticism. Being insulted? Not so much. Edited October 11, 2014 by Guest Link to comment
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I'm not sure if it was your intention (as it would require a rather nuanced grasp of political tact) but that question implies you're concluding the thread. (I'm going to assume calling it a threat was a typo) You don't conclude this thread, a Headmin does. My objection is on both your character and your low brow LOOC response remark to me have both been articulated fully, and I simply have to wait for Frances or Skull to post their response for additional dialogue with them unless they conclude that the thread is finished. Link to comment
Frances Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I'm not sure if it was your intention (as it would require a rather nuanced grasp of political tact) but that question implies you're concluding the thread. (I'm going to assume calling it a threat was a typo) You don't conclude this thread, a Headmin does. He's not going to close the thread, I believe he was simply asking if there were other things you guys wanted to bring up. Link to comment
TishinaStalker Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I made an edit to my previous post, just in case. Link to comment
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