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Remove Junk Food Causing Heart Damage


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Everyone complains about the unrealism of things like this and that no one would take heart damage that fast, but they are okay with applying a gauze and a bandaid curing your huge gaping arm wound in the span of 5 minutes, or the surgery for organ repair taking less than 5 minutes.


Just eat something besides junk food from the vending machines. This feature was added, I'm pretty sure, so people would have more reason to visit the kitchen instead of just relying on vending machines all shift.


Deal with it.

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Except that, that is definitely not the reason as Burger has demonstrated in OOC a couple rounds ago.

 

BurgerBB: Literally you'd have to be a gluttonous fuck to get any sort of serious consequence from junk food.
 TishinaStalker: If that's the case, then why make the heart damage thing???
 TishinaStalker: You literally just said you need to be a gluttonous fuck to get any sort of serious consequence from junk food
 BurgerBB: I mean both
 BurgerBB: It's spess
 BurgerBB: twinkies in spess are the size of soda cans
 BurgerBB: Plus it gives free poison to antags

 

There was literally next to no point in this addition outside of the creator's totally ridiculous reasoning when sprites are not always indicative of real size and, assuming that he's ACTUALLY using this as a legitimate reason and not to take the piss like I'm expecting he is, antagonists already have free poison by hacking any nanovend in medical ever.


By all means, remove this god awful mechanic. There's no reason why I should need heart surgery for eating a few bag of chips.

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I personally think the change negatively affects gameplay, without actually fixing problems. The heart damage applied always seems to be edging on the threshold for any patients I receive and scan for other problems, and I get a fair few patients suffering from real problems due to the changes. My main problems with it, can be summed up easily in two main reasons.


This change adds nothing: It doesn't fix a problem, create new ways of doing things, add whole new systems, etcetera. Essentially, the change seems meaningless, and without purpose.


This change negatively affects gameplay: This change adds tedium, something that really shouldn't be in surplus. Vending machines become something to be avoided and ignored, and when they aren't ignored, it simply causes issues for other players.


Adding toxins to the food, like others in this thread suggest, would be the same thing, if not worse. Toxins would actively cause pain, damage, message logs, etcetera, again, for no real reason other than "B-but junk food isn't healthy irl tho". This change causes anyone who pays attention to the change to just avoid vending machines entirely now, and anyone who isn’t paying attention to the server’s changelog, and happens to eat one too many packages of raisins, becomes the equivalent of a K’ois eater. This change adds tedium for no actual mechanical or RP benefit. It's just in general, another thing new or infrequent users might get screwed for, added without viable reason.


Remove it please.

Edited by Guest
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Yeah, I just don't see what this accomplishes. Vending machine food is already annoying and inferior to normal food. Toxins was better than this. I don't care about realism too much (I do, but I know, it's a silly space game), but I don't see how this enhances the game even a little.

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Guest Menown

I think it is an interesting mechanic to encourage you getting your FATASS to the kitchen and getting a proper meal.


What it COULD use though, is change heart damage for Toxin damage, or major speed and stamina debuff.


-1 to REMOVE outright

 

Toxin damage is a no-go. We don't want trips to medical or a tea vendor just for eating a bag of chips.


Maybe have junk-food increase the drain on nutriment, to force you to eat actual food which is okay, or risk draining your account on junk-food.

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A reminder that except in outstanding circumstances (feature is bugged or outright broken, staff/contributor is convinced otherwise, counter-PR is posted and approved (which would require staff being convinced otherwise anyways)), the no kneejerk revert rule is still in effect. However I also recommend that [mention]BurgerBB[/mention] take an active stance. I personally do not mind junk food causing active health issues that can manifest in the course of the round, however if people are consistently receiving serious heart damage it is possible that the brush was applied a little too broadly.


Edit: I also recommend that people become somewhat more constructive in their feedback on both sides. Calling ideas terrible and asking people to just "deal with it" is unlikely to contribute meaningfully and more likely to make it an argument of bruised egos and hurt feelings.

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Words

 

Our Head Administrator [mention]Sharp[/mention] asked for this thread to be created so they could gather community opinion. At the same time, he re-stated his authority to veto PRs that went against the overall public opinion and server direction.


Which is why this thread was created.

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I would like this change removed. It hasn't really affected me ingame whatsoever, but that's only because I've been playing synthetics as of late. The idea of getting heart damage from eating junkfood is absurd over the span of 2 hours. Chef is already an underplayed role. Requiring one to curb the heart damage is a bit of a lame solution.

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Wew this took off.


[mention]TishinaStalker[/mention]

Just a protip for the future, I do not take OOC complaints about PR as seriously as I need to, as I'm super busy playing 2d spess mens. Make a forum post about it if it's about concept, or make a github bug report about it when it comes to bugs. Reasons I gave to justify its existence were off the top of my head and obviously really poor.


Here are a list of reasons as to why I added this change, in order of importance:

- Encourages players to eat natural, chef-made food instead of using the vendor to provide nourishment. There is no reason why meat from the vendor should have the exact same properties as meat that was just freshly cooked from a recently slaughtered animal.

- Prevents players from overeating the vendor food.

- Gives antag creative poison options. (15 UNITS OF PALM OIL STRAIGHT INTO THE VEINS, MOTHERFUCKER.)

- Makes junkfood taste differently than real food.

- Gives an authentic spess capitalism feel.


[mention]Gazer[/mention][mention]Resilynn[/mention]

You'd need to eat a shitload of raisins in order to receive heart damage. The github pr says 4 but that's basic on 1:1 consumption to blood ration, which it isn't. It's 1:2 which means you'd need to eat 8 large packets of raisins to receive heart damage. I find the addition to be pretty immersive and with purpose, as when I went to medical for an unrelated condition to junkfood, a medical doctor noticed the heart damage and told me that I should be eating healthier and avoiding junk food. The scan lies about how much heart damage a patient has received. It's rounded to the highest full number, so if you have 0.00001 heart damage, the scanner would say you have 1 heart damage. The negative effects of organ damage start at 1, not 0.


There are future plans to make junk food worse, such as sluggish behavior (sugar crashes) and obesity based on fat levels, not nutrition. I'm currently waiting on another PR to be merged before I implement these new changes and I think this should add the desired depth that you all seem to want.

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I think it is an interesting mechanic to encourage you getting your FATASS to the kitchen and getting a proper meal.


What it COULD use though, is change heart damage for Toxin damage, or major speed and stamina debuff.


-1 to REMOVE outright

 

Toxin damage is a no-go. We don't want trips to medical or a tea vendor just for eating a bag of chips.


Maybe have junk-food increase the drain on nutriment, to force you to eat actual food which is okay, or risk draining your account on junk-food.

 

Another idea. Instead of heart damage, just give it the "fat" effect and slow you down without having to "overeat", and give a large stamina penalty until the food is processed. Could be a new reagent called "low quality nutriment"?

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- Encourages players to eat natural, chef-made food instead of using the vendor to provide nourishment. There is no reason why meat from the vendor should have the exact same properties as meat that was just freshly cooked from a recently slaughtered animal.

 

There are a decent number of incidents where a character can reasonably say no to chef's food. I've seen rounds where the chefs decide to deep fry rats or publicly claim the meat in the fridge to be monkey meat. Without hydroponics, employees of a corporate station resort to growing their own food like in the days of yore or risk a clogged artery. Realistically, yes, canned meat is loaded with sodium and other seasonings to make it taste halfway decent and is by no means a healthy edition for every meal but if we're arguing realism, there's no way the effects of consuming too much sodium can manifest within the span of 2 hours.


Also the fact that I do think Unathi have no choice but to eat vendor meat in the absence of a chef if all the donuts in their department are gone. The only real way for them to prevent heart damage is to ask for synthimeat from the chemist or the hydroponicist. Not sure if this is the way to go, but it's also just an assumption as to what could happen.

 

- Prevents players from overeating the vendor food.

 

The nutrition system itself should stop overeating. Most players cease eating food when their nutrition notification-thing disappears.

 

- Gives antag creative poison options. (15 UNITS OF PALM OIL STRAIGHT INTO THE VEINS, MOTHERFUCKER.)

 

As far as I know, the only jobs that have access to a grinder are scientists, chemists, and chefs. All of which, minus the chef, have better alternatives to injecting someone with palm oil to kill them. The reason I mention the grinder is that no one really wants to be that guy who has to lug around a bag of junk food just to capture somoene, syringe out the reagents, and inject it into their victim. It just seems slow and is a frankly rather ridiculous method of killing someone.

 

- Makes junkfood taste differently than real food.

 

This could be done without the heart damage.

 

- Gives an authentic spess capitalism feel.

 

This is kinda the lore team's domain because while I'm sure NT does want to keep their expenses low and their profits and productivity high, I'm also sure that they wouldn't bring in food that is so hazardous to health the only way to treat overconsumption is by surgery or by giving medication to the patient. With overconsumption being a very low amount of >3 servings.

 

You'd need to eat a shitload of raisins in order to receive heart damage. The github pr says 4 but that's basic on 1:1 consumption to blood ration, which it isn't. It's 1:2 which means you'd need to eat 8 large packets of raisins to receive heart damage. It's rounded to the highest full number, so if you have 0.00001 heart damage, the scanner would say you have 1 heart damage. The negative effects of organ damage start at 1, not 0.

 

Actually this is false. I just tested it on the server and these are the exact number of food, correct to the number of bites required till you start taking damage.


Bread Tube: 2 and 2 bites

Chips: 5

Salty Ham: 3 and 4 bites

Raisins: 3 and 1 bite

Cheesie Honkers: 5

Jerky: 4

Twinkie: 3

Corned Beef: 5

Meat Pie: 4

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Well, Exia already covered most of my thoughts on the matter pretty succinctly, but I'll cover where they haven't, lest I just end up echoing them.

 

- Encourages players to eat natural, chef-made food instead of using the vendor to provide nourishment. There is no reason why meat from the vendor should have the exact same properties as meat that was just freshly cooked from a recently slaughtered animal.

Everyone already was avoiding meat from the vendors, and going to the chef where possible, the food from the vendors gave just about no benefit to hunger, and ultimately became more time consuming than actually just walking to the chef. There are also again, the cases that Exia described. Adding damage that medical has to deal with, without a real reason, isn't the way to go about this. A slowdown debuff would also make these foods completely ignored except in edge cases, where a player plans on not really going anywhere.

 

You'd need to eat a shitload of raisins in order to receive heart damage. The github pr says 4 but that's basic on 1:1 consumption to blood ration, which it isn't. It's 1:2 which means you'd need to eat 8 large packets of raisins to receive heart damage. I find the addition to be pretty immersive and with purpose, as when I went to medical for an unrelated condition to junkfood, a medical the heart damage and told me that I should be eating healthier and avoiding junk food. The scan lies about how much heart damage a patient has received. It's rounded to the highest full number, so if you have 0.00001 heart damage, the scanner would say you have 1 heart damage. The negative effects of organ damage start at 1, not 0.

 

So, your change's damage to a person can't even be accurately measured, is what you're telling me. You're also citing medical, telling people to avoid the results of your change, to be a mark of the change's success. It means that people are already bold facedly ignoring junk food completely, simply because of the change, not that people are adjusting their RP around it.

 

There are future plans to make junk food worse, such as sluggish behavior (sugar crashes) and obesity based on fat levels, not nutrition. I'm currently waiting on another PR to be merged before I implement these new changes and I think this should add the desired depth that you all seem to want.

 

I have seen one person in this thread that has indicated wanting alternatives. "You all" is likely inaccurate. Additionally, if we're going for realism, sugar crashes aren't real, they're simply a placebo effect (except in people with a condition that causes it). There have been multiple studies that indicate this. However, a weight variable even just for flavor reasons could be cool. I recommend you look to Vore for such a system, as they have a functioning one that is based off the character's actual weight, not how full they are.

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I might have come up with a more tolerable way to implement a similar idea.


IMO bringing in things like getting fat or whatever else you might have would be a bit too much. It would befall the same trap as this PR already has: being a bit too severe. Depth is not the issue here, severity is.


Perhaps a better way to do this would be to have another variable for hunger: attrition rate. By default, attrition rate would be 1, which would basically be the status quo. Your hunger would diminish at a regular rate. As your hunger diminishes, your attrition rate would rise. The rate is effectively a multiplier applied to the rate at which your nutrition level lowers, so higher attrition rate == you go hungry faster. Now, how we'd use it would be pretty simple. Have junk food not reset the attrition rate to 1. The effect would be the junk food "lasting" a shorter amount of time than normal food. This would make you consume it more regularly and basically mildly annoy you to shit. And then let's have regular food reset it to 1, so you go back to normal hunger fall-off.


The key benefits to this would be that it's not outright harmful. It's mildly annoying and inconveniencing, but doesn't outright kill or harm you. This discomfort can also be calculated with mathematics relatively easily and adjusted in the future, as need be.

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Perhaps a better way to do this would be to have another variable for hunger: attrition rate. By default, attrition rate would be 1, which would basically be the status quo. Your hunger would diminish at a regular rate. As your hunger diminishes, your attrition rate would rise. The rate is effectively a multiplier applied to the rate at which your nutrition level lowers, so higher attrition rate == you go hungry faster. Now, how we'd use it would be pretty simple. Have junk food not reset the attrition rate to 1. The effect would be the junk food "lasting" a shorter amount of time than normal food. This would make you consume it more regularly and basically mildly annoy you to shit. And then let's have regular food reset it to 1, so you go back to normal hunger fall-off.

 

This seems actually acceptable as long as the attrition rate is adjusted low. I'd be pretty happy with this. Medical isn't tied up in it, it's not actively inconveniencing the player, it's easy to work with and understand. "Real food keeps you full longer." I'd also want there to be some kind of cap, if that's apparent. Letting your attrition tick too long shouldn't be grounds for instant hunger.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

I might have come up with a more tolerable way to implement a similar idea.


IMO bringing in things like getting fat or whatever else you might have would be a bit too much. It would befall the same trap as this PR already has: being a bit too severe. Depth is not the issue here, severity is.


Perhaps a better way to do this would be to have another variable for hunger: attrition rate. By default, attrition rate would be 1, which would basically be the status quo. Your hunger would diminish at a regular rate. As your hunger diminishes, your attrition rate would rise. The rate is effectively a multiplier applied to the rate at which your nutrition level lowers, so higher attrition rate == you go hungry faster. Now, how we'd use it would be pretty simple. Have junk food not reset the attrition rate to 1. The effect would be the junk food "lasting" a shorter amount of time than normal food. This would make you consume it more regularly and basically mildly annoy you to shit. And then let's have regular food reset it to 1, so you go back to normal hunger fall-off.


The key benefits to this would be that it's not outright harmful. It's mildly annoying and inconveniencing, but doesn't outright kill or harm you. This discomfort can also be calculated with mathematics relatively easily and adjusted in the future, as need be.

 

Skull saves the day once again.

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I personally like there being drawbacks from just living of off the vendors and never leaving your department instead of heading to the kitchen and getting a proper meal. I'd like the mechanic to get adjusted if people are finding it too annoying Instead of the change being wholesale removed.

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Assuming the consensus is that people need to frequent the kitchen more often, instead of implementing this ridiculous mechanic what should happen is we should get rid of most vending machines on the station. This would make the kitchen a much more important department that for some reason was already surprisingly often staffed when they were pretty much unnecessary.

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Issue has be solved. Heart damage is more linear so it isn't just an instant 20 oxy damage.

That's not... that's not fixing the issue though. That's just making the issue less severe. This doesn't invalidate any of my points except severity. I'd still rather have a system like Skull described instead of literal organ damage for no reason.

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