New IPC resurrection proposal

Oh, my apologies. I didn't just mean breaches to space. I was talking about dangers of any kind (well, most kinds). I worded that badly.

Edited the original reply to reflect that.

Most enviromental factors can also be completely rubuttled by the simple donning of el oranjo suito.

This is no more a punishment than cloning is. I fully agree with Alberyk and his reasoning for the current changes.

I also fully agree with the idea that more customization should be allowed. I am okay with the current presentation, but more customization either soon in the future or immediately would be way better.

Also yes, Alberyk asked me about this before even coding it. It had my support, at least. Can't speak for other lore writers.

If you want to nerf the IPC's, nerf them. There's a multitude of avenues you can take: giving them support structures i.e bones, giving them more organs they're dependant on to make them broke faster, give them mental injuries that need to be fixed, restrict nanopaste from being a quick and easy heal, etc etc. This is a change that makes IPC's unfun, not because "wah I'm no longer robust" but because their customisation is restricted.

Does it stop the main reasons IPC's stay alive for long? No, it doesn't. Internal damage still does fuck all with Nanopaste, their organs still don't get damaged by anything outside of instant death or EMP's (which are essentially instant death) and if your argument is how much damage they can take, their legs are made out of goddamn paper mache. Target them. (Besides the G2's, those guys will just rip your head off. Slow, though.) They can't die from enough damage regardless of the location on the body, so if you just constantly shoot said new trashbot in the arm they aren't using or for some reason your torso shots don't do much, you'll still die- unlike other species. So after this hoop is jumped, does it stop a validhunting, pursuing IPC for long? I don't see why not, I think surgeries would be even faster if a roboticist prepares a new chassis beforehand. (Destroyed body walks in, brain out, throw it in the second body, close it up send 'em on their way. Will take longer to put their gear back on than to get cloned.)

And anybody who wants to roleplay as a robot gets tossed aside. So why are powergamers getting a faster surgery, while every person who actually plays to their lore gets their looks taken away? Wouldn't this just make the issue worse? A robot gets blown up, placed into a new body in the span of a minute, sent on way, is now pissed and even hungrier for valids. Nevermind people who are up against ions, you die near instantly and only come back worse.

There is one strenght you forgot of the IPC and that is being the T-1000 of SS13.

By that I mean it literally is unable to die unless specific conditions are met, those two conditions are.

1: Nobody who can reset it is present

2: The positronic brain was deleted.

3: The body was deleted.

Outside of that an IPC is unable to die and a retard robotics who is day 1 in his job can revive an IPC in less than 5 minutes after following a guide.

EMP and Ion damage is randomised, it takes good 2-5 hits depending on your luck.

This is dumb, however a bad mechanic that is currently in the game should not dissuade you from putting a good mechanical punishment like this into the game. It SHOULD make you want to remove shitty instant death mechanics like EMP's. (Which I heard Kyres and Cake are working on adjusting/fixing/removing)

Sytic, nanopaste repairs internal components, fixes all types of damage regardless of type AND IPC's can use it on themselves to self-heal, it's basically a DOOM health kit. Again, something that Kyres and Cake are hoping to work on eventually.

I agree with Baselines or perhaps a more generic uggo industrial being available option at the cost of materials, the sprite presented by alberyk is currently way too visualy close to the clasic cyborg sprites for my liking.

Also for all the people going "U JUST HATE SYNTHS!!!!", I mean holy shit look at yourselves and the character you play most often. I bet he is most likely a synth so stop using this as an argument. What species you play is invalid as long as people have a mechanical understanding of it.

OPINION ALERT

OPINION OVER, YOU CAN LEAVE THE NUKE SHELTER

So yeah, I support this.

snip

Sytic, nanopaste repairs internal components, fixes all types of damage regardless of type AND IPC's can use it on themselves to self-heal, it's basically a DOOM health kit. Again, something that Kyres and Cake are hoping to work on eventually.

snop

By "internal damage does fuck all with Nanopaste" I should have said "internal damage means fuck all with nanopaste", meaning that because it exists, an IPC can just fix themselves up fully with disregard for robotics entirely. That's an issue.

This only limits roleplay arbitrarily based on their customisation- which, I'll agree, is a petty argument. But I disagree with this mainly because of how powergamers will use it. The IPC, as it is, doesn't need stat changes on a weaker version and it's good to go- It's broke by design. It has no pain, it has very little organs, what organs it does have are rarely ever damaged and it's super easy to fix said organs, it does not have any bones (no ribs to shatter, no skull to fracture, none of that shit) and attacking areas such as the head will only help if you can decapitate them, and attacking arms they aren't using will only damage the arm and not the robot, and the only area which will begin to take a noticeable toll over time is the chest, which is usually the most protected area. (Nevermind the legs, which are again made out of paper mache, if you aim for the legs you'll have way more chances to kill things.) So putting some stats down and calling it "okay" doesn't fix the problem with IPC's in comparison to other species.

If a roboticist can make this chassis prebuilt, and ready for dead IPC's, they can grab the IPC, take out the brain, shove this brain into the already made chassis, and be done in thirty seconds or less. It'll take more time for them to pick up their gear than to be essentially revived, and only detract from the roleplaying experience, making players more likely to want to secure valids first than roleplay their supposed punishment.

That's what this compensates for, the inherit weakness of the prepared chassis. Instead of punishing a player by a period of a waiting time it punishes them by giving them a weaker body with which they'll have a harder time to powergame with.

That's what this compensates for, the inherit weakness of the prepared chassis. Instead of punishing a player by a period of a waiting time it punishes them by giving them a weaker body with which they'll have a harder time to powergame with.

Yet changing just the stats does nothing. It's weaker mechanically, but still has the same problems. They're still able to take a massive amount of punishment, and will only keep coming back until they win- The issues they have, the reasons they're so durable, and so frightening to fight without ions (or targeting the legs seriously guys) remain the same and they only get a faster way to come back and kill people, instead of being pushed with more things to be repaired, a longer time to be repaired, and actual organs/bones to put them on par with humans.

By "internal damage does fuck all with Nanopaste" I should have said "internal damage means fuck all with nanopaste", meaning that because it exists, an IPC can just fix themselves up fully with disregard for robotics entirely. That's an issue.

There seems to be a misconception about nanopaste. Nanopaste does not repair IPC's internal damages without someone opening the hatch to their innards and applying it that way. With nanopaste, an IPC can completely heal themselves up to full provided they have enough of it regardless of their damage so long as their internals aren't damaged. With that said, the direct counter to nanopaste is an EMP. Or blowing up the protolathe, depending on your point of view. What you're thinking of is stationbounds, as they do not require their hatch to be opened for nanopaste to repair their internal systems, provided it hasn't reached a damage threshold where it is completely deleted.

That said, I am completely against this PR as it simply seems like a band-aid fix to a perceived problem rather than addressing the issue at it's roots. The fact of the matter is that if you give a robust enough player a crappy, mechanically inferior frame, they're still going to wipe the floor with anyone that doesn't have an EMP, laser weapon or an equal or superior amount of robustness because IPCs are immune to most stuns, feel no pain and are can largely shrug off ballistics with minimal consequences.

If changing IPC resurrection is an absolute must, what I'd suggest is allowing Robotics to produce aesthetically identical but mechanically inferior frames (sans Shells and Bishop Frames. They'll just have to settle for a baseline or industrial one) that keeps everyone's snowflakey models but still "punishes" them for dying... You know, despite the fact that no other race has a permanent "punishment" for dying and getting revived.

We'll offer up our robustness as sacrificial lambs if need be, but at least let us keep being snowflakes.

If you want to nerf the IPC's, nerf them. There's a multitude of avenues you can take: giving them support structures i.e bones, giving them more organs they're dependant on to make them broke faster, give them mental injuries that need to be fixed, restrict nanopaste from being a quick and easy heal, etc etc. This is a change that makes IPC's unfun, not because "wah I'm no longer robust" but because their customisation is restricted.

Does it stop the main reasons IPC's stay alive for long? No, it doesn't. Internal damage still does fuck all with Nanopaste, their organs still don't get damaged by anything outside of instant death or EMP's (which are essentially instant death) and if your argument is how much damage they can take, their legs are made out of goddamn paper mache. Target them. (Besides the G2's, those guys will just rip your head off. Slow, though.) They can't die from enough damage regardless of the location on the body, so if you just constantly shoot said new trashbot in the arm they aren't using or for some reason your torso shots don't do much, you'll still die- unlike other species. So after this hoop is jumped, does it stop a validhunting, pursuing IPC for long? I don't see why not, I think surgeries would be even faster if a roboticist prepares a new chassis beforehand. (Destroyed body walks in, brain out, throw it in the second body, close it up send 'em on their way. Will take longer to put their gear back on than to get cloned.)

And anybody who wants to roleplay as a robot gets tossed aside. So why are powergamers getting a faster surgery, while every person who actually plays to their lore gets their looks taken away? Wouldn't this just make the issue worse? A robot gets blown up, placed into a new body in the span of a minute, sent on way, is now pissed and even hungrier for valids. Nevermind people who are up against ions, you die near instantly and only come back worse.

God forbid you have to actually deal with a loss of individuality and merely being a mass-produced product as a robot. Yeah, why should robot characters have to deal with issues inherent to being robots. It'll be no worse than a cloned player being valid hungry, or, you know, joining the ERT.

Yet changing just the stats does nothing.

It's weaker mechanically

What the fuck man.

The point is that an IPC with a spare body will be easier to dispatch, I.E die faster, I.E need another body, I.E need more time and materials!

These bodies take time to print and playing robotics daily I can tell you majority of the time I do not have the materials to keep even the borgs active, If I did have this stipulated infinite amount of materials you assume robotics has for making bodies, I'd just print myself a Phazon and run the antag over myself.

Even IF someone can pre-print bodies, why? Why would you pre-print bodies outside of perhaps powergaming or being asked by an IPC that works a very dangerous job specifically? You can easily ahelp these things and we can easily spot these things, just as we can easily spot when a cargo tech is cloning people.

So yes, having to print an entire body, equip it with neccessary organs, assemble it, take out the brain and put it into a new body overall takes more time than taking a brain out and putting it back in while I beat the body with a welder and cable.

And EVERYONE is weak to leg removal excluding dionaea. Not just IPCs.

What the fuck man.

The point is that an IPC with a spare body will be easier to dispatch, I.E die faster, I.E need another body, I.E need more time and materials!

These bodies take time to print and playing robotics daily I can tell you majority of the time I do not have the materials to keep even the borgs active, If I did have this stipulated infinite amount of materials you assume robotics has for making bodies, I'd just print myself a Phazon and run the antag over myself.

Even IF someone can pre-print bodies, why? Why would you pre-print bodies outside of perhaps powergaming or being asked by an IPC that works a very dangerous job specifically? You can easily ahelp these things and we can easily spot these things, just as we can easily spot when a cargo tech is cloning people.

So yes, having to print an entire body, equip it with neccessary organs, assemble it, take out the brain and put it into a new body overall takes more time than taking a brain out and putting it back in while I beat the body with a welder and cable.

And EVERYONE is weak to leg removal excluding dionaea. Not just IPCs. sytic's edit here: (they're particularly weak to it due to them collapsing from leg injuries regardless of bones broken, pain or otherwise)

You could also just kill two birds with one stone. Make IPC's easier to combat by giving them organs and bones, while also making them harder to repair and resuscitate with brain trauma, as well as the repair of said organs and bones, and brain trauma. Having to build an entire body I'm okay with, if you really want this to go through, but I don't see it as having any major effects on how annoying IPC's are to deal with. It'll just make Roboticists more important, smarter, and working harder, which while is a great thing, also probably will nullify most of the efforts made to increase the difficulty of repairing these replacement chassis, especially when these replacement chassis would most likely only require base materials instead of special, particular materials from Mining- unlike a Phazon. And if it's code red, and most of Security are IPC's, making a spare body is probably a good idea- especially if you know an IPC has gone down for the count before they get brought into the lab. It's essentially already starting work on reviving someone before they arrive.

Although, this is a scenario in which Mining is 100% cooperative and is feeding you base materials, so it may be a bit unrealistic.

tbh as someone who does roboticist from time to time I always like having a spare cyborg body, and if this suggestion is implemented I would also make a IPC spare for the same reason;

Shit happens.

It is not powergamey to have a spare IPC or cyborg body because it makes sense ICly wise to do so, as their job is to repair IPCs and cyborgs as quickly as possible.

I still consider this utter irritation. Every other race is super easy to get back up and running. Why don't you just introduce a programming-based trauma to IPCs? It's very possible. A glitch. A broken code. Anything makes more sense than this.

You could add internal structures. You could add loose parts. You could do so many other things, but why this? All of the complaining seems to be

"Well what if they powergame"

But come on, how are we supposed to print all the bodies when some jerk nades medical and all of synthbay dies?

This is just going to cause so many more problems.

New changes made to the pr:

-you can build all other ipc species based on the torso's brand

-the new ipc will get the opportunity to customize their new chassis for extra snowflake points

-the unbranded chassis remains as an option to torture your new victims

I thought I'd chip in here because I had a couple ideas about the PR and discussion surrounding it. Let me say I am in support of this PR. I believe it is an interesting concept that has been well thought out and has a capacity for creating interesting interaction.

At current stages, this is just a way to punish IPC players.

I think this is a false representation. This change is a proposed expansion of mechanics for their revival. Currently, those mechanics are very lacking; that cannot be argued.

Kinda retreading old ground here, so I'll chuck the following in a spoiler:

Lots of stuff in this thread so far but I'll try to keep this succinct:

What exactly is the reason why you can't print out branded robot parts?

Is it because the station isn't allowed to print copyrighted schematics? If that's the case why can't they just purchased a new chassis from cargo coming straight from the company that makes that particular model?

...

It could be a very expensive item severely limiting ipc's abilities to be repeatedly restored into a new body, and perhaps create new interesting dynamics where the IPCs friends all pool together their money to buy them a new branded body.

Yes yes yes! I like this idea. Especially considering the persistent economy update on the horizon. I would propose the Baseline chassis being available from Robotics, hence the name, while customized shells would need to be ordered via cargo and by extension the separate companies, for a hefty fee.

Please consider that most competent IPCs don't tend to just rush to the frontlines and getting repaired from death is usually not a fast process. And there are plenty of other synths besides sec synths...

My point is, from an RP standpoint, there are a plethora of better options to be explored.

In the interest of not making this post too much of a wall, I've cut out some of your suggestions. I believe they are worth consideration, though. However, I think it's important to note that this is an expansion of IPC reviving mechanics. I'm not sure in what faith this change was proposed but I don't think it should be nor do I think it is a useful/necessary change to stop powergaming. That's up to people adminhelping it to admins, and always will be.

If you want to nerf the IPC's, nerf them. There's a multitude of avenues you can take... This is a change that makes IPC's unfun, not because "wah I'm no longer robust" but because their customisation is restricted.

I agree with you; lack of customization and so to speak playing your 'not-character' isn't fun. I don't think it's exactly genuine to look at this change as being purely a nerf. The avenues you suggest are very similar to just making IPCs 'metal humans/organics', which I think is something that needs to be very clearly avoided. IPCs are special, and mechanically different. Keep them that way.

Does it stop the main reasons IPC's stay alive for long? [i've cut out a lot of what you wrote here, and treating it essentially as how this PR does not change how IPCs are still able to validhunt/powergame. Please let me know if I've misrepresented that part.]

...

Nevermind people who are up against ions, you die near instantly and only come back worse.

As I said before I don't think this change should be meant to counter rulebreaking behavior. That's for admins to cover. This change fleshes out revival mechanics for IPCs and makes death more of an obstacle.

That said, I am completely against this PR as it simply seems like a band-aid fix to a perceived problem rather than addressing the issue at it's roots.

I don't think this is the proper way to look at this proposed change. I don't think it is, and I don't think it should be, a fix such as you suggest. What I believe it is, and what I like about it, is the introduced mechanics for IPC revival that make it so the process is more than taking out the brain, putting it back in, and adminhelping for an admin to rejuve the dead IPC.

You could add internal structures. You could add loose parts. You could do so many other things, but why this? All of the complaining seems to be

"Well what if they powergame"

But come on, how are we supposed to print all the bodies when some jerk nades medical and all of synthbay dies?

This is just going to cause so many more problems.

Like I said before I don't think that making IPCs 'metal humans' is a viable alternative. With that second scenario that you list, that sounds like something completely IC (although possibly worthy of ahelping). When shit happens in a round, part of roleplay is dealing with it.

With all that addressed and said, my thoughts on this:

• Make the default thing produced a baseline, and specialized or shell frames can be ordered from cargo for a large price.
  
  I think this can provide some amazing character development, while still retaining the special-ness even if you only go for the baseline. An IPC dying on extended and having to purchase a new chassis, getting ICly in crippling debt. That's really cool, especially with the persistent economy. I just find this type of on station major character development really cool.
  
• Having punishment for dying is not a bad thing!
  
  If your character is dying enough that this becomes a legitimate restriction stopping you from playing them on a lot of rounds, odds are you need to heavily reconsider how you approach situations, and take another look at the self-preservation rule.
  

I feel like I had more to say but I can't remember what so, here we are.

Let the PR go through!

As said by ShameOnTurtles: We have the possibility to ship in items of various manufacturers.

So why not use that to order the special frames from the other manufacturers.

I would even go so far and remove the customization options from the robotics machine and only allow the standard unbranded limbs to be manufactured.

The rest could easily be shipped in via cargo (If you want to have something special)

As said by ShameOnTurtles: We have the possibility to ship in items of various manufacturers.

So why not use that to order the special frames from the other manufacturers.

I would even go so far and remove the customization options from the robotics machine and only allow the standard unbranded limbs to be manufactured.

The rest could easily be shipped in via cargo (If you want to have something special)

It's not having "something special," it's the fact that the IPC species are dramatically different and it's a dramatic shift in playstyle and individual advantage. If McBotty dies, but he's a Mobility frame, you have to change up how you approach each and every situation. Same with the industrials.

The only IPC that I see being legitimately too expensive is a Shell, because they are already stated to be rediculously expensive.

okay hi i read the thread. well, did so diagonally anyways.

A few points. First, as pointed out by Fowl, being brought back to life and having your uniqueness retained is by no means a right granted to you. It is also hardly a nerf, seriously. When you consider that the IPCs have some of the most visually unique customization (and mechanically unique customization options) available ingame. This update would, in absoloutely no way, undermine this. These mechanics have apparently been taken for granted to the point where removing them after death, which in this game can be random and will carry with it difficulty is somehow outrageous? I'm sorry: you died. This happens. Some characters, after death and revival, are completely useless due to roleplay requirements. You get to literally sidestep all of that bullshit and still remain active. You are not guaranteed the right that your character will take a full recovery from death.

Next, I do not see how these mechanics are a band-aid fix for anything. They are not meant to address IPC powergamers directly, they are not meant to address or fix the way IPCs can die and end up dying. They are meant to add some level of depth to the process of reviving an IPC, by making it more involved and unique from other races. Depth to a process which, at present, is completely overlooked and works only by some miracle of unmaintained code and "Undefined output".

Further, making this process the same as the human one, with the same consequences, e.g. brain damage and trauma, is quite a bad suggestion. The entire end goal of all species is to offer variety. To offer variety in the way they play and handle for the player controlling the character, and to also offer variety to the people and the station environment around them. Just copy-pasting mechanics from other species, because they are an accepted norm, is lazy and unfortunately counter-productive. The mechanics proposed are unique to IPCs, make sense mechanically and lore wise, and allow for more interaction between different departments. We will get to see how stuff manages with low count science, but eh.

Anywho. Alb added the custom chassis shit. Which we can integrate with trading or science and production as necessary. And even without that, IMO, this is a good PR until something from gameplay proves things different, I guess.

This is now merged and live.

Marking as a completed project.