[Dismissed] Add shuttle immunity rules [Binned: 01/05/2018]

Currently, as MALF, MILF, or otherwise, recalling the shuttle after a 2/3rd majority vote without seeking permission is grounds for a good bwoinking. This rule is in place to prevent bad antagonists from trying to end the round later than they should. This is a very good rule since the vote is basically the players saying "This antagonist is bad." or "The resolution of the round has been met." Unfortunately, this does not prevent more creative antagonists from disrupting OOC democracy, such as a previous round where I think a lot of players were quite annoyed with when it came to calling a bomb threat on the shuttle, blowing up the glass on one side of it, and effectively extending the round 15 minutes longer than it should've because of repairs and safety concerns of the crew. There was an arguement about it, and admins/mods decided it was perfectly fine as they seeked permission and "Wasn't against the rules." despite it being an incredibly low-roleplay thing to do.

The primary goal of antagonists is to drive story and generate interaction, but it seems that a lot of antagonists recently forget their purpose, and even sometimes forget they're playing on an HRP server. If a 2/3rds majority want to leave the station, and you have not reached the climax of your story as an antag, then you should cut your losses and do something interesting instead doing the equivalent of a child and going "FIVE MORE MINUTES, MOM" and doing an actual jihad. Obviously a lot of antags don't share that mindset and treat this vote as some sort of magical deadline where they must have some action-based climax with no actual interaction and story value, and leads to a lot of rounds ending up with "What the fuck were those antagonists trying to accomplish?"

I propose some actual rules for antagonists regarding touching the shuttle, including stuff like shitty MALF AIs stealth nuking and then bolting/shocking the shuttle doors closed, bombing the escape shuttle, or creating a blockade without a good, thought out reason. These reasons need to be established at the beginning of the round, for example if a group of raiders were kidnapping crew members for information and random, it would be acceptable for them to blockade the shuttle or cause disruption. However, if a group of raiders were clearly just fucking around with security/command (ie every shitty raider gimmick ever) then obviously they have no fucking clue what they were doing in the first place and should be scolded if they fuck with the crew transfer shuttle.

Thoughts?

This is an interesting suggestion policy. I honest felt that our rules were sufficient in this matter but it seems it's not. We had a brief discussion about this on staff discord and the opinion shifted that this wasn't really valid as it extended the round beyond reason.

A minute or two is acceptable. Twenty is not.

I'll link this to staff and hopefully this'll get a discussion going. I'm very partial to this notion.

The issue I find with this is exactly the size of it.

Now touching the shuttle is a nono according to the shuttle during a voted transfer, alright.

Departures too why not.

But what about security checkpoint? What about elevators? Perhaps the hallway leading to transfers? Or maybe the hallway leading to elevators?

The question is, where do we stop enforcing this rule as every admin can stretch this differently as I can effectively stop a transfer just by blowing up the hallway leading to departures next to the elevators.

So where exactly would you draw the line?

The issue I find with this is exactly the size of it.

Now touching the shuttle is a nono according to the shuttle during a voted transfer, alright.

Departures too why not.

But what about security checkpoint? What about elevators? Perhaps the hallway leading to transfers? Or maybe the hallway leading to elevators?

The question is, where do we stop enforcing this rule as every admin can stretch this differently as I can effectively stop a transfer just by blowing up the hallway leading to departures next to the elevators.

So where exactly would you draw the line?

I think a good way to draw the line is artificially extending the round when a crew transfer occurs. Blowing a path to departures and holding the shuttle for twenty minutes is different. The former inconveniences characters/players while not necessarily delaying the round while the other extends the round beyond the standard crew transfer time.

I don't mind the shuttle being bombed or pretty much anything as long as it triggers the end of round credits, but then again, that will probably prompt staff to delay the round and talk to whoever messed with the shuttle in the first place.

Sometimes it is hard for me, but I tolerate staff members delaying round ends to speak to a player who messed up so their roleplay and conduct on the server improves. What I am not okay with is anything that prevents the shuttle from launching from the station back to CC, be it command members delaying the launch for more than just a couple of minutes or the malf AI selfishly canceling the shuttle.

I suppose there is another way to address this. Simply don't allow the shuttle to be held. This can be done via policy and/or eventual coding.

It must be baycode that allows shuttles to be held because in TG code, to my knowledge, you simply can't do that.

TG allows you to override to launch the shuttle early, but not to keep it on station. Once the shuttle arrives, there is a countdown and it launches with or without anyone on it.

I do think the underlying issue with antagonists should be considered, but it could be possible that some legitimate story's climax might involve conflict at departures during escape. For example, mercs who dock their shuttle next door to departures. It's not like they will wave goodbye nicely as crew members wait for the shuttle to arrive and then subsequently board. So my inclination is to treat the problem a different way. Force a round end, one way or another.

I say have it so the shuttle and it's airlocks cant be touched, and departures cannot be vented, but otherwise the antag can make it as hard as possible to get there within reason.

I say have it so the shuttle and it's airlocks cant be touched, and departures cannot be vented, but otherwise the antag can make it as hard as possible to get there within reason.

I do not think making Departures a freezone is a good idea, but make it more harsh and frowned upon to destroy it after a vote has been accepted. The vote as has been said represents a positive or negative feedback on your antag gimmick. If the vote goes through you should think about surrendering or something else that will quickly end your story and give the sense a closure on your gimmick. Even if this is not a pure surrender and more of a huge hole that allows the crew to swiftly take you down without much effort.

Making places Safezones are very much not a good idea and can be abused SEVERELY, there is no positives to making places safezones.

If the problem is artificially delaying end of round by delaying the shuttle, the solution is simply to remove the means of delaying the shuttle, and just have the shuttle launch as is.

What about those rounds when something interesting just happened and then some dork sitting in a bar calls for the shuttle because they didn't know that things was happening, and so the miners and all the others who aren't right next to the interesting thing, knowing the interesting thing is happening, vote for the shuttle?

If the problem is artificially delaying end of round by delaying the shuttle, the solution is simply to remove the means of delaying the shuttle, and just have the shuttle launch as is.

Budget cuts. Works for me.

I had a wonderful experience today during a cult round. Shuttle was about to depart in a minute. Some armed cult ghoul walked into the shuttle, all the way to the back right without anyone saying anything, and started attacking an AFK security officer. A huge huge huge problem is that once people go on the shuttle, they go afk and do other things because they assume that there is no more threat. This happens all the time, and the effect is even worse with SSD players who are brought onto the shuttle.

I think it's a good example of how this policy can defeat bad antagonism. The threat was presumed dealt with but since people were still in hiding, the cult summoned flesh ghouls who went and attacked the shuttle.

I think a good way to draw the line is artificially extending the round when a crew transfer occurs. Blowing a path to departures and holding the shuttle for twenty minutes is different. The former inconveniences characters/players while not necessarily delaying the round while the other extends the round beyond the standard crew transfer time.

The trouble with this will be the numerous situations of, "I was already setting up to blow the shuttle anyways, and now I can't because someone triggered a transfer vote right as I was doing my thing. :ree:" Like, say during autotater rounds.

I think a good way to draw the line is artificially extending the round when a crew transfer occurs. Blowing a path to departures and holding the shuttle for twenty minutes is different. The former inconveniences characters/players while not necessarily delaying the round while the other extends the round beyond the standard crew transfer time.

 

The trouble with this will be the numerous situations of, "I was already setting up to blow the shuttle anyways, and now I can't because someone triggered a transfer vote right as I was doing my thing. :ree:" Like, say during autotater rounds.

I don't think we should completely treat the transfer shuttle as some holy ground. And people that only decide to do anything when the round end don't get permission to start havoc just because. But assuming there's proper build up where they hold the shuttle from the crew and demand nobody boards but people board anyway in which they detonate their explosive, destroying the shuttle. I don't think this is an issue if the rules are adhered to.

There is an issue if a crew transfer is held up for 10-20 minutes when people voted for the round to end. This is what I'm trying to differentiate it.

A few examples to illustrate my point.

• I've been trying to steal from the crew to no success, so I'll ransom their ride home. If they refuse, they can't board or I'll blow it up. Allowed.

• A crew transfer was voted but we're having an emergency. I'm going to wait for 10 minutes longer by holding the shuttle. Not allowed. Code red forbids transfer shuttles and if it's an emergency, it should be code red.

• I'm a loyalist. I'm going to hold the voted crew transfer until I kill all hostiles. Not allowed.

• My gimmick isn't over. I'm going to hold the voted crew transfer so I can finish it up, removing access from everyone until I'm done. Not allowed.

I think a good way to draw the line is artificially extending the round when a crew transfer occurs. Blowing a path to departures and holding the shuttle for twenty minutes is different. The former inconveniences characters/players while not necessarily delaying the round while the other extends the round beyond the standard crew transfer time.

 

The trouble with this will be the numerous situations of, "I was already setting up to blow the shuttle anyways, and now I can't because someone triggered a transfer vote right as I was doing my thing. :ree:" Like, say during autotater rounds.

 

I don't think we should completely treat the transfer shuttle as some holy ground. And people that only decide to do anything when the round end don't get permission to start havoc just because. But assuming there's proper build up where they hold the shuttle from the crew and demand nobody boards but people board anyway in which they detonate their explosive, destroying the shuttle. I don't think this is an issue if the rules are adhered to.

There is an issue if a crew transfer is held up for 10-20 minutes when people voted for the round to end. This is what I'm trying to differentiate it.

A few examples to illustrate my point.

• I've been trying to steal from the crew to no success, so I'll ransom their ride home. If they refuse, they can't board or I'll blow it up. Allowed.

• A crew transfer was voted but we're having an emergency. I'm going to wait for 10 minutes longer by holding the shuttle. Not allowed. Code red forbids transfer shuttles and if it's an emergency, it should be code red.

• I'm a loyalist. I'm going to hold the voted crew transfer until I kill all hostiles. Not allowed.

• My gimmick isn't over. I'm going to hold the voted crew transfer so I can finish it up, removing access from everyone until I'm done. Not allowed.

So to clear it up you are saying that VOTED shuttles are holy-ground, but EMERGENCY called shuttles are free-form?

Not holy ground per say. It's just that if the server votes for a crew transfer, then it means they want the round to end. So players shouldn't delay the round beyond reason.

Transfer shuttles can have conflict.

I'm fine with transfer shuttles with conflict if it's actually relevant to the gimmick at hand.

I think I mentioned this before, but if my gimmick is to kidnap people then I'm going to hijack the shuttle and that would be allowed.

If it's cult and my goal is to convert people, storming the shuttle and murdering everyone shouldn't be allowed.

If it's cult and my goal is to convert people, storming the shuttle and murdering everyone shouldn't be allowed.

It boils down to the round really. Transfer shuttle is called as Nar'sie is summoned. Can't expect them to really just ignore everyone in the shuttle.

If it's cult and my goal is to convert people, storming the shuttle and murdering everyone shouldn't be allowed.

 

It boils down to the round really. Transfer shuttle is called as Nar'sie is summoned. Can't expect them to really just ignore everyone in the shuttle.

Nar'sie wasn't summoned that round. Cult was presumed defeated and I bet you that there were 1-2 remaining members left, so they decided to send a flesh army to the shuttle when the crew transfer shuttle was called. I think emergency shuttles should be exempt from the proposed rules, but voted ones are only exempt if it makes actual sense and doesn't look like some last ditch effort to actually do something.

I'm not trying to contradict you. I'm only saying that context of rounds matter, there are times when it's fine and times when it is not. Covering an area with a rule protecting it form logical progression of antagonistic escalation is not something I'm fond of.

I don't really agree with making the shuttle some zone of zero conflict. For months, we didn't have the no conflict rule inside the shuttle and it was treated as requiring esculation like everything else. Why does this need to change? It hasn't been some persistent issue and it should just be treated on a base bases. I never really see a shuttle held for over twenty minutes, cult randomly attacking the shuttle with no esculation is against the rules. This to me, just sounds like a 'I ded, please restart' situation.

Simply preventing the shuttle from being held at all remains the most elegant solution here.

We're discussing this among the team. Though, I highly doubt we're going to make it an immune zone, but we are exploring the notion of disallowing transfer shuttles to be artificially delayed either administratively or mechanically.

So overall we're not accepting this suggestion. We don't want to treat the shuttles as a holy zone. People going AFK on the shuttle is really their own thing. We already have rules for 0-100 escalation which is an ahelp and a wind away from solving it. We are however going for a mechanical alternative which will be to limit the delay to a maximum of five minutes, though we'll still deal with people when they are reported or we spot them that delay needlessly.

Suggestion denied per team discussion.