Community Discussion: Multiple jobs - Job hopping - Realism vs Gameplay

After a staff discussion on the topic of characters having different jobs, we felt we'd like to discuss this with the community. Generally we want to cover the following.

• Taking a jobs within the department, assuming you are qualified. Warden to Head of Security. Chef to Bartender. Quartermaster and Miner.

• Taking jobs with significant pay-gaps. Head of Security to Bartender. Warden to Cargo Technician.

• Taking jobs across departments due to qualifications. Surgeon to Xenobiologist. Officer to Paramedic.

Our general stance on this would be that characters should ideally be limited to their department, we don't want to force people into a single slot for their character since the community has grown immensely, even after summer we're pulling off 70+ players even when we've set the server to hidden. Some exceptions may be reasonable, generally due to the character in question or species, but they need to be cleared with staff in such cases. An example of what we don't clear is where a Roboticist would go on to do everything in the Science department justifying having I think it was 4 PhD's and 2 Master's, which is well, no, not going to happen. So if you have a reasonable request, ask staff and we'll tell you if it's not.

Other than that, let the discussion begin! Got any more points for me to add? Mention me in your post and I'll make sure to add it if it's relevant.

My personal stance on this is this: You should not be playing another department with the same character other than the department said character is in. For example, you should not be able to be a security officer and paramedic. Not only is the difference in paygrades pretty big, it's also not realistic how you would be employed for 2 different departments. That's not how employment works.

I concur with Matt, just make another character friends.

Maybe classify some jobs as "hobbies" or whatever, such as bartender, cook, maybe gardener. It could make a bit of sense for staff to work there on their spare time. But not heads of staff, it would make less sense.

I think that an acceptable ground would be having 1 skilled profession, and one "unskilled".

It's not too hard to believe that a miner/captain could work a part time job as a Janitor. or even a cook if they can well, cook.

What's less believable would be something like, a telescientist nurse, or a miner roboticist.

to an Extent, cross-department jobs should be allowed. but heavily regulated.

So a miner could work as a QM in theory, if they're qualified/old enough, but I find it hard to believe that a scientist can work both R&D, telescience, and Xenobotany. (delet telesci)

tldr; idk

My personal stance on this is this: You should not be playing another department with the same character other than the department said character is in. For example, you should not be able to be a security officer and paramedic. Not only is the difference in paygrades pretty big, it's also not realistic how you would be employed for 2 different departments. That's not how employment works.

Except it is how employment works. Simply stating that one can't hold two positions with the same employer is simply not true. Even in real life, there is legal background under the Fair Labor Standards Act for the taxation of an individual who works two jobs with the same employer, one full-time and one part-time as supplemental income.

That being said, I'd say that usually holding positions across departments is very much so possible, with the right qualifications. A security officer can quite reasonably be a paramedic at the same time, as there are people who voluntary give the time of day to do paramedic work, and part time paramedic jobs do exist (which a simple Google search would show), and vice versa for security officer. Having a blanket solution is a little ham-fisted, and ignorant of some of the complexities that can arise in a heavy roleplay environment.

Taking jobs within the same department should be allowed, once again, with the right qualifications. Quartermaster to miner would be fine, but not chemist to medical doctor or medical doctor to virologist, etc. If someone wants to play their character in a manner that makes sense for that character's qualifications, why shouldn't they?

Last, taking jobs with significant pay differences. I am a bit hesitant on this one, but like the argument with part-time positions for supplemental income, I think it would honestly pass. With our current (?) restriction on heads of staff not being able to take positions in other departments, I believe that should cover gross instances of such behavior. At least I believe this restriction exists, it's not really anywhere easily accessible, like most other decisions.

What incog says sounds reasonable, but then you'd have to limit the "supplemental jobs" to only when the main job isn't available. For which a system is already in place. However, I myself would like to clarify the availability to switch jobs between service and cargo, with the exception of Quartermaster. Say, a cargo tech that also works as a bartender, or a gardener. Or a miner that can also cook. Not much of those jobs require any specific qualifications, outside of being able to do them like cooking.

Incog sounds like a reasonable man with reasonable idea and view on things.

I think this is a good-ish idea, for the fact that it takes off the stress of Heads of Staff - for example, the Chief Engineer needs to know how to do literally everything in Engineering so that they can help everyone at their job; the RD needs to know how to do literally everything so that they can answer any questions anyone has. It'd be nice even just to take some pressure off the Heads of Staff who just want to RP and test shit.

I think this problem is very situational , a roboticist switching to surgeon just because he knows how to lobotomize a brain is of-course not realistic or acceptable . A character should have a Job they prefer the most, its maybe because that's what they are best at, because they like the pay etc. if the job is available normally your char would register themselves to work in that position for this shift and NT also wants their employes in the jobs they are best suited for.

But there are reasons to work as other job in ones department or even in other departments , these reasons could be :

-Dedication to NT

-Dedication to the Aurora

-Dedication to the crew (seeing them as family or close friends)

-The need for the extra pay

-The opportunity for further training (basically internship into new departments and jobs (which then also should be played like that ,by picking the assistant job of said department, etc))

-The need of someone working in that field (Only one active engineer that could really use help , etc.)

I will take an example on how my char hops 3 Jobs : Mechatronic Engineer(Roboticist) , Lab assistant , Engineering Apprentice :

All in all i think often Job hopping can make sense and should stay , but if unrealistic or illogical Job hops occur they should best be handled IC (if possible)

I shall deliver my opinion on only one thing that has bothered me throughout this month wherein increase of players going up to 70+ and that would be job-hopping across the departments. We currently have enough people that I know in which job hops from warden and roboticist, from security officer to paramedic, and station engineer to medical intern. We should not encourage people to job-hop to a two clear separate qualifications that does not best connects with each other. I don't mind taking enough jobs within the station, hypothetically a surgeon still shouldn't know how to clone people but then we have this same surgeon saying that he was a medical doctor and claims to know cloning due to his past experiences. Obviously, to pull a FULL STOP on this will make both the victim and operator disappointed in the ruling. But, an atmospheric technician and station engineer (and equivalent jobs in same position as station engineer) are acceptable as the work with each other is closely related but differs in expertise. To summarize, it only depends on the expertise closely related with each other. Same thing for ERT & crew.

I can say this for big companies that little jobs are best reserved to civilian AKA "trash" while Command staffs AKA "1st estate" gets all the good things. I don't see why big companies will let a Captain become a bartender wherein human resources will determine he is best working elsewhere but some people would just rebuttal and say, "I'm just doing this for fun, lol. This is my casual job." A CEO or Captain wouldn't degenerate itself to a low level.

I believe I covered my opinions on the three points that Aboshehab has made.

Moonlighting as an EMT is a thing even in real life, so if the character is old enough to have attained such certification and there's actual reason for it then I don't see why not. That said, there should actually be reason for it -- EMT work is exhausting, long hours, and emotionally and physically draining, so Sec mains shouldn't just be doing it because they want to be IC ~combat medics~ or something. If the normal job one plays is rewarding enough that they can live comfortably I think it's an rp failure to get into something so exhausting just for fun. High level roles though -- things that require undergraduate and ESPECIALLY graduate degrees -- I just don't see it. It's one thing for Skrell, but most people aren't going to have the education to get deep into more than one field, but it can't be limited because as soon as it's allowed for one it's allowed for everyone.

If you're so attached to a character that you can't bring yourself to play anything else, and you have to retcon the shit out of them to try and work them into another department, that's a failure on your part and something I don't think we should accommodate. It's the very nature of this game that bad things happen to everyone at one point or another and this kind of fixation with one single flake isn't something I see any benefit to enabling

I'm more or less in favor of letting players play how they like, as long as they pay attention to reason and our 'believable characters' rule. A 20 year-old person in food service could believably have the qualifications to work in most of the service jobs. A 29 year-old scientist on the other hand might have a single PhD that enables them to work in a specialized field of science, but not others. Thankfully, that scientist has a 'scientist' blanket role that several people can take. I think it's important to recognize that with our higher population and limited job slots, people aren't going to be able to play their characters at all if we restrict them too severely. The officer to paramedic example previous in the thread is something I think a player could stretch to fit.

That said, I personally find it believable that people with high-paying or highly specialized jobs (command, doctors, researchers etc.) would stick to their important job or specialty most of the time. The Captain who also bartends, who also engineers on the side, is less believable than the Captain who is important enough not to work those two extra jobs, and maybe just shows up as a visitor when they want to be aboard and not working. The surgeon who spent 30 years to become a surgeon is believably aboard to do surgery, rather than run a NanoTrasen library. Exceptions to these rounds should be few and far between, maybe, but I don't think I'd like policy to prohibit them outright. People who hop too much are just in danger of breaking an already-established rule.

Also, I don't think I like the idea of 'hobby' jobs that was previously mentioned. They direct people who wouldn't believably work those jobs to them, at the expense of characters who are designed to work them.

I can say this for big companies that little jobs are best reserved to civilian AKA "trash" while Command staffs AKA "1st estate" gets all the good things. I don't see why big companies will let a Captain become a bartender wherein human resources will determine he is best working elsewhere but some people would just rebuttal and say, "I'm just doing this for fun, lol. This is my casual job." A CEO or Captain wouldn't degenerate itself to a low level.

I believe I covered my opinions on the three points that Aboshehab has made.

This is my main argument for Command people taking roles outside command. Players should want to keep a reputation for their characters. A captain and head of security are extremely important positions on a new research station such as the Aurora. I think suddenly appearing as anything else because "reasons" and because "loyalty implant is disabled" and because players can't bother to play another character lowers the standard of roleplay and of the lived-in universe we are trying to build. There are way more believable ways to justify having just one job than justifying having multiple ones for positions with great pay. The only person I have seen that has transitioned from one department to another in a believable manner was Phoebe Essel from Surgeon to Xenobiologist and she did this with exemplary roleplay through months of playing as a Lab Assistant first and many ingame conversations updating her progress after she was part of the discovery of the Vaurca when they were first introduced. Though I still think she should not be coming as a cook.

I understand people can't have their own event to jumpstart their career in another field like Essel did, nor the time/imagination to invent a thorough path through which their character can believably do something else that requires great skill and dedication, but you can certainly try harder.

On the topic of loyalty-implated staff taking other positions within security, not only is there a huge pay gap and completely different responsibilities, there would be so much controversy when a loyalty implanted person takes on the role of say, detective or security officer because of the negative stigma that implants have. Being investigated, questioned by a person you know is completely loyal to Nanotrasen on a regular basis would be like being pulled over by a patrol car that has two police officers married to each other. It just wouldn't happen due to the compromise in bias. But people just ignore the fact that the implant never goes away, even if somehow turned off.

tl;dr Make your character more iconic and well-rounded at what they do by sticking to one job.

When it comes to job hopping across departments that require significant training and degrees, it is absolutely not believable for most humans to jump from Research to Sec to Engineering, and that's something that always irks me. I once saw a roboticist sign on as a psychiatrist. Major nope.

Skrell and IPC's can be immune to that rule, however, since Skrell live 5ever and a 12 year doctorate for one is just like a weekend training camp for us, and IPC's can just...load whatever info they need between shifts.

On the subject of jobs with significant pay gaps, however, my opinion is much different. I honestly like the idea of a captain who occasionally bartends so they can interact with the crew on a more personal level and get to know who they're ordering around. Mechanically, jobs are assigned on a per-shift basis and it's ridiculous to have it be anything else lore-wise, it's not like the captain decided "time to throw all of my captainship away for long term bartending." No, this is more comparable to a captain deciding to take a day of unpaid time off. Not unrealistic at all. It's not like a "CEO stooping to something so low," unless it's literally janitor work, and even still. NT has a CEO, and the captain of one station isn't even close to comparable.

Hopping jobs within departments should be fine - QM to miner, Roboticist to Scientist, etc, as long as they've got good training and records.

No, this is more comparable to a captain deciding to take a day of unpaid time off. Not unrealistic at all. It's not like a "CEO stooping to something so low," unless it's literally janitor work, and even still. NT has a CEO, and the captain of one station isn't even close to comparable.

This is exactly the point I made in my staff report. Heads and other staff consistently appear on station as visitors, which proves that heads can indeed realistically spend time on station not doing their primary job. This means that, on an off-shift like that, there would be nothing wrong with working as say, a bartender or chef if the character has those as a hobby. Sure, I wouldn't see a snobby captain like Vitellia working chef, so it needs to make sense with the character, but if it does make sense, why not allow it? It's pretty clear that they wouldn't be doing it for the pay, but as a hobby

In summary: if the knowledge is feasibly attainable, if the character has a reason to do so, and if the character doesn't do it every single shift, why should it not be allowed?

I think it makes sense for some situations to hop departments--a chef or hydroponicist serving as a miner, or janitor.

Officer to EMT is a big one, especially because they're in the same paygrade, and medical skills are hecka useful in Security.

I suggest seriously using the skill system as a base for this knowledge as well as the requirements. I'm not talking about full mechanical implementation, but something that is incredibly realistic for their age and species.

https://i.imgur.com/SfVPtqn.png

For example. a 20 year old Unathi with these skills can be an Assistant, Cargo Tech, Cadet and Security Officer. Nothing else as she would fail the botany/hydro test and she doesn't have any skills therefore no degrees.

https://i.imgur.com/XRA0UTW.png

For example, a 237 year old Dionaea with these skills can be a Cook, a Scientist, a Roboticist, a Doctor, a Chemist...

Obligatory "REEEE THE SKILLS ARE OUTDATED", they are but I think they are a good base for choosing which jobs a person can take. Perhaps someone with a lot of time on their hands and approval can rework the skill system so instead it's just checkmarking occupational requirements such as "Spent 2 weeks as a cadet" or "Spent X years getting an Y degree"

It's basically an automatic mary sue detector.

I also like to headcanon my own lore where NanoTrasen is big/secure enough to force/allow people to work the odd job, such as a normal Sec Officer working as a Cook if there are too many Security Officers.

I think it makes sense for some situations to hop departments--a chef or hydroponicist serving as a miner, or janitor.

Officer to EMT is a big one, especially because they're in the same paygrade, and medical skills are hecka useful in Security.

And there's the issue with this whole thing: the most common application of allowing characters to be inter-departmentally trained is and will continue to be Security mains going teehee imma combat medic. The problem with this, besides making it difficult for antags to get things done when every officer doubles as a Paramedic, is depriving medbay (paramedics especially) of the job they signed up for. Ideally, even if people are trained in medical, there should be IC regulation barring them from administering medical treatment beyond basic first aid and keeping people alive long enough for actual medics to arrive, for liability reasons (just as tends to be the case with real world employers, you are generally restricted from administering health care regardless of your training unless you're actually on the job because it opens up a world of possible lawsuits if you fuck up or even if you don't). Such regulation could bar non-medical personnel from administering anything beyond basic first aid just like visitors are not allowed to hop in and start doing their job regardless of training.

If you don't have the accreditations to be job-hopping you shouldn't be job-hopping.

If you're job-hopping you better respect that no one person can job hop to every single department and would only have at least two specializations and sometimes no more than that.

A CMO knowing their entire department and having degrees in chemistry/anatomy/virology is not terribly unreasonable. It's unreasonable for a CMO to also hold accreditations in electrical engineering because medical doctoring and electrical engineering are completely unrelated and barely have enough synergy with the main career to work.

On the subject of jobs with significant pay gaps, however, my opinion is much different. I honestly like the idea of a captain who occasionally bartends so they can interact with the crew on a more personal level and get to know who they're ordering around. Mechanically, jobs are assigned on a per-shift basis and it's ridiculous to have it be anything else lore-wise, it's not like the captain decided "time to throw all of my captainship away for long term bartending." No, this is more comparable to a captain deciding to take a day of unpaid time off. Not unrealistic at all. It's not like a "CEO stooping to something so low," unless it's literally janitor work, and even still. NT has a CEO, and the captain of one station isn't even close to comparable.

This is like a hospital director or highest authority in a hospital (I'm not familiar with their structure) working at the in-building cafeteria as a 'hobby'. You're just not going to see that anywhere unless it was a one-time publicity stunt. Even less likely on a research station where captains are given codes to activate a nuclear device. Would they really be left to fend themselves against drunk people with just a shotgun full of bean bags. The things you do ingame as a captain are just a tease of what a real person in such position would have to deal with on and off the station. I doubt anyone who managed to get to that position would waste their precious off-duty time to work all day as a bartender relatively for free.

Security/command visitors are another issue. Antagonists already have an uphill battle in the way that the game manages the number of antags versus the number of crewmembers. This being:

- The server selects the number of mercenaries/changelings/traitors/cultists/ etc, according to the number of people ready. Let's say the gamemode was mercenary and 20 people are ready when the round begins.

4 mercenaries against 15 crewmembers. But then +20 more people join throughout the rest of the round. Antags get fucked because everyone didn't ready up and the server does not compensate for this in any way.

- Crewmembers powergame antags occasionally because victory for the player precedes an engaging round for the rest of the players.

- A lot of times antagonists have no idea what the fuck they are doing becaause it's their first time or they go AFK.

Now you add into the mix captains/sec officers coming in as visitors and bitching to the HOP/HOS/Captain to arm them up because they actually work security there all the time, circumventing the department limit that tries to balance the round, giving antags an even harder time because players can't let go of their snowflakes who have no life outside the station.

A more apt comparison would be to naval vessels, which have, yes, Captains aboard as the ultimate authority when out at sea. And yes you are never going to see the ship's captain just deciding to take the day off and serve food in the cafeteria because he just loves the workplace so much. It is indeed an issue with people too attached to their special snowflakey characters that job slots are filled and they refuse to play anyone else, so they come on as visitor and then try to involve themselves with station affairs. This is especially awful lately with certain Heads of Security walking in and demanding a sitrep/authority as a visitor.

There is already regulation within the Station Directives specifically barring Command characters from being bumped up from visitor in-round, regardless of circumstances. It's not often enforced because the visitor head in question tends to be in close contact with their metabuddies who allow them to nose into Command business as a Visitor just out of nepotism, but its there. It'd be nice if this could be extended at least to security as well.

This is like a hospital director or highest authority in a hospital (I'm not familiar with their structure) working at the in-building cafeteria as a 'hobby'. You're just not going to see that anywhere unless it was a one-time publicity stunt. Even less likely on a research station where captains are given codes to activate a nuclear device. Would they really be left to fend themselves against drunk people with just a shotgun full of bean bags.

First of all, there's a pretty big difference between working at a cafeteria and being a chef (which is what the job is called by the way: Chef, not lunch-lady. There is a cook role, but you can just pick the other one). I see nothing wrong with a head deciding to work as a Chef or a Bartender, as those are both dignified jobs that require a lot of skill. Again, I think this really depends on the character, and should be left on a person to person basis rather than simply saying "Noone is allowed to do this, period." Sure, some heads wouldn't deign themselves to be seen with the common folk, but others wouldn't mind at all. And you have to remember that canonically, the station isn't that dangerous (since antags are non-canon, of course), and any drunk rowdiness will be dealt with by security quickly.

Additionally, the station works very differently than a hospital or even a naval vessel, as Munks proposes. The comparison to the hospital is inaccurate, since it is a place where people live for extended amounts of time (in cryo or otherwise), and the comparison to the naval vessel is also inaccurate, since it is not a military vessel, and off-duty personnel spend a lot of time on the station as well, unlike military ships.

I think the "visitor asking for access/jobs" is a wholly different problem to this, and should again, be dealt with on a case by case basis. It's explicitly against station directives to do so, so anyone that's doing it should be arrested or reprimanded OOCly for bad RP.

The way I see it we are a Role play server not a "Role" play server. There likely are some people that play SS13 for the fact that it's a game and they want to do their jobs and could care less about player interaction. more power to them. However, I play to have my character interact with other members of the crew, with my job being a medium to do so, not the main piece. Personally I feel the more ways somebody can interact with the crew the better. While we could micro manage ever little possible thing and be like, "Well you can't play cook unless you're a 17-20 year old human from Mars that worked all his young life in his mothers kitchen on Mendel" it doesn't bode well for other players interacting. Personally, and this is just my choice, I play one character. It helps get into character a lot easier and they end up being more well rounded RP wise. on the terms of many of the civilian jobs I treat some of the "low skill needed" positions as "open shift" opportunities if nobody is working there and the station could use the hand. you don't /have/ to be a 5-star chef, or the top club owner of X planet to be a tender. I'd much rather see good RP from all kinds of players than just Grey Tide Bob, running X department because their actually good character is constrained to Y position. We could even go all the way down to "Oh well your character would realistically stay in their department and do their job else they'd get fired so all players can now only talk around water coolers and only use comms for important stuff" but that won't lead it good opportunities for people to interact. Now obvious the problem comes in when you've got an Engi/surgeon/Sec officer who knows the in and outs of the mechs. But I have more respect for people to understand that. Even in the real world some upper level personnel can be seen helping out the lower level entry positions if they are needed. I'm personally on the side of, lets give people more opportunity to RP, as long as it's not something completely unheard up. Yuri Daruski started in mining and moved up to QM, does that really have to mean he had that memory purged from him? I believe Incog brought up that heads of departments should know their departments and generally how to run them. I think this is essential, especially when training in new people tot the server like we've been having. If we just constantly give new comers "Find out ICly :)" responses that's honestly not going to lead to that person staying here. So to sum up, I'd rather not have people get overly complicated and anal about the job system, God forbid be have more role play opportunities between players. /as long as/ it's not a bunch of ERT vets that are engis medics and combat trained like we all like to joke about.

There's two sides to every point. For example, "oh the officer paramedics will engage the antags" and yeah, for gameplay this isn't fun, but if you have the training to, why wouldn't you help out in a dangerous situation? I also think the title of this thread needs something added. It needs to go from "Realism vs Gameplay" to "Realism vs Gameplay vs Fun". You can do your best to balance realism and gameplay but if that doesn't result in something fun people will hate it anyway. Plus, we should keep in mind that we do not need to hold everything to current day standards, seeing as this, from a realism standpoint, takes place hundreds of years in the future. Engineers erect walls in seconds, surgery lasts an uptime of five minutes tops per problem and yet somehow all research is reset each shift. And from a gameplay standpoint, this is apparently done to be able to fit stuff within a 2-hour shift window, but I wouldn't dismiss the speeds entirely since we are hundreds of years in the future. Heck, everyone can carry several stacks of 50 sheets of steel with them, which they can use to erect space-proof walls larger than themselves. I think a bit of breathing room when it comes to what job you're getting assigned as, as long as it is within your qualifications. Plus, there's some jobs that don't even require qualifications at all, or very low ones- Cargo technician, miner, janitor and gardener's only requirement really is just being 18 or older. Chef and bartender? Pass a vague culinary test you can spend a few weeks training for and then pass it. Also, the paygrade thing. It may matter to someone with an income of a quartermaste,r but a head of staff who gets paid so much they can live in luxury could probably spend an off-shift cooking or bartending for the crew, as long as they still have their mainstay be their head role. And with an up total of 70 players at once, yes, roles you usually play are going to be locked, but the "just play another character durrr" argument isn't gonna fly for me. If you play a character often, they'll have built up relationships, friendships, rivalries, etc. However, if you're going to get locked out of that character because "hur dur your job got taken" and you go visitor anyway, chances are you won't interact with much of those relationships because they're busy doing their job, especially on antag rounds. People joke about chairRP and valids but honestly, chairRP is the whole point of the server. What's the point of having a continuity if you can't even keep it up because someone else decided 2 seconds before you to play the job you wanted? I'd like to at least see some recognition of someone's skills if they come visit. "Hey this guy is dying, pass me the medkit!" "No way dude, you're a visitor." "But I work here as a paramedic!" "Yeah but not right now." Extreme example, I know, but that's what the "realism" scenarios will bring us to. The gameplay aspects would probably just be the dude grabbing the medkit himself and not even trying to interact, where fun would be actually getting passed the medkit with the other being nervous about letting a visitor do something. Bottom line, I think we should think about how society would be 400 years from now - Not as it is in the current day. Social structures evolve, and maybe keeping down multiple jobs is a standard practice in 400 years, who knows.