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On Dionaea (Nymphs)


Asheram

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My apologies for bringing this up so recently, but we just had round "bT6-cXMI" with the Dionaea plague, and I just need to ask the question

What is the purpose of Dionaea nymphs from a pure meta standpoint?


I get that it's partly to let the gardeners have something interesting, but what we have here is something completely unrestricted.

It doesn't have the rules Drones have to follow

It doesn't have the rules pAI has to follow.

It doesn't have the restrictive mechanics a mouse has.


A nymph is a pest, apparently completely apart from the rest of the rules of the server, and is actively encouraged to seek out and hurt people. That's what it does. It needs to hurt people in order to grow.

The thing nibbles people. It nibbles food. It can drag things. It can hide. It can vent crawl.

It's as the entire thing was designed to be able to self-antag, and is second in annoyance only to the damn clown. (Glad we don't have that one here).


So I ask, why do we allow and encourage this?

Edited by Guest
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I too am also bothered by the entire lack of quality control that exists for Nymphs. They're worse than most anything else, because they're pests that can become legal humanoids. They spend the rounds usually biting people for blood, working towards becoming a full Dionae then fucking around until the end of the shift.

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Indeed.

Now, don't get me wrong on this. I have no issue with players inhabiting pets such as mice, or even cats or dogs. What I'm bothered by is that the Nymph is actively encouraged to be a bother and that it has multiple ways to mess with the people on the station.

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It is indeed a problem and they inhibit a strange grey area.


They aren't sapient yet, so when they bite you it isn't a crew member commiting minor assault.

They can become fully sentient, so people think it is wrong to bash them like you would a mouse that bites you.

Nobody will hold the grown Dionea accountable for their actions as a Nymph, because they weren't fully sapient yet.

So basically we're supposed to be ok with this thing running around biting people and shit and then not hold the resulting creature or botanist accountable?


I suggest doing like most countries do regarding dogs, their owner has a strict responsibility for it. Doesn't matter if you as a dog owner aren't negligent when your dog bites someone, you're still responsible. I'd say a non registered dionea nymph is to be seen as a mouse, i.e. pest to be killed. A botanist who grows a nymph is legally responsible for it. So when it bites you, the botanist is charged for being an accomplice to minor assault or possibly neglect. Obviously that nymph would then be put down like a dog would be. The only way a nymph then is protected is when the botanist has "registered" it and makes sure it isn't biting people who haven't consented.

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But another thing is what AmoryBlaine touched upon here. That Nymphs grow into full Dionaea.


The Gardener suddenly decides upon "Hey, let's plant some Dionaea and see what happens?" That right there is something that should go against so many NT regulations that it's downright silly


This isn't like the Roboticist builds a cyborg and lets someone possess it, with the lawsets, regulations of all.

This is like a Roboticist building an unrestricted IPC and then lets it go wild. (Massive security risk)

And that's ignoring how absolutely pants-shittingly terrifying Dionaea are when you start considering things. (Enormous security risk)


I would have little issue if Nymphs were indeed as dogs or pets (and stayed like it), responsibly controlled by their owner. But they aren't. If someone grows Nymphs then the probability is near 1 that there will be a stray Nymph on the station after a while.

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I'm not sure if Nymphs require the whitelist (I'Ve heard both versions so far), but having them require the whitelist makes sense to me.

That being said: Most of the nymphs I've encountered so far have been pretty decent about things. Often the crew member who grew them will ask people to donate blood and most (though not all) nymphs I've seen will not just run up to people and bite them. I'm for quality control here, but I think we should be careful not to demonize everybody playing nymphs here.


Furthermore there is the lore aspect. Dionaea, as they are, don't have an awful lot of lore to begin with and the nymphs are one of the few things interesting about them. While no specific changes were suggested here yet, I have this feeling that taking away such a central aspect of their lore will make them even less interesting than they already are.


Just my two cents on the whole thing. It's late and I doubt my short line of arguments makes much sense. Sorry.

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Nymphs do not require a whitelist.


Nymphs are one of many observer-join roles in the game. You have to be a ghost to be a nymph.


Remember that nymphs are very simple organisms until they start sampling a lot of blood for language comprehension and understanding of concepts that humanoid crew understand. Their intentions are to gain knowledge and grow up. They aren't meant to antagonize specifically. If people are playing them like pests, well, that's a thing. The thought process of nymphs should be to seek blood samples to learn. It's their natural instinct to consume biomass, too. The objective as a nymph shouldn't be to act like a pest, it's to act like an unintelligent animal with the sole objective of assimilating biomass and sampling blood to gain knowledge. They seek evolution, effectively, in order to later split off and propagate more of their species.


They are basically like infants but they grow up and learn things super quick. They're innocent creatures, and the next generation of diona. Please defend the doona noomphs c:

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I heard you had some complaint against the Trees.


So looking through this thread, I have seen some good concerns and points being made. Allow me to join the discussion and explain my feelings on the topic at hand.


Yes, station-grown nymphs are not whitelist-restricted, and yes, some players grab the role and create undesireable RP.



I have a lot of work ahead of me in the way of Dionae, especially their lore, but for now we will give an insight here. Schev is right on quite a few accounts on Nymph behavior. When they are first grown, a Nymph is an animal that is driven by instinct to grow and survive, just like any new plant and animal. They know next to nothing other than that they are in a new environment with many new things, and that they are a very hungry caterpillar. Dream is also right in the fact that it would take away from what a Nymph is. Behaviors ICly will vary from mindless hunger (greentide??), to wanting to learn. They are in all rights, just very clever animals, and more need-driven at first.


I have been approached about how nymphs are to be treated and if I want to whitelist them or not, and I have decided to keep things the way they are. The reason for this is not only does it allow people to participate in a round, but also to give newer players without whitelists a chance to be something that usually has a whitelist. I have seen players come for whitelists because they enjoyed being a Nymph, and encouraged other whitelisting as well. Sure, it's a risky move. But those who typically survive long enough to become a Gestalt are good players who can be trusted with one.


Now to Amory and Asheram, I do not encourage "greentide" behavior in the least. I do encourage players who are up to snuff to gently explore a sneak peek into what they could have and have new aspects of further enjoying the game as a member of the community. It's not a permanent whitelist when a nymph is played, and from what I've seen (although I could be wrong), Nymphs are a rare occurance in the number of times one is played, almost like the Merchant slot. The majority die shortly after being planted. So why shut down a rare opportunity for good players, and possibly encourage better ones? Like I said, nymphs don't always survive even after a player takes one- the greentide ones are swiftly put down. It's a pass-fail process that is naturally taken care of ICly.


If you see someobe being an intentional jerk go ahead and ahelp it to try to teach the player that what they're doing makes for poor or unfair RP, or ICly leave it to survival of the fittest. Additionally, according to what has been told, a nymph cannot actually kill someone by drawing blood alone as the amount drawn is lessened each time depending on what's left in the target, so there is no need to actually get rid of Nymphs- they do not push that boundary like a greytide could. Just act as a massive nusciance.


Now, for Saudus' post. I was actually going to crack down more on how Nymphs are handled, and how they behave. One of which was, responsibility agreements! Far too often a nymph is too much of a literal pain in the ass, or a well-behaved nymph is mercilessly slaughtered for valids. So when a gardener grows a Nymph, they will automatically claim responsibility for said Nymph as a part of their contract with NT. I can't go into too much detail, as it is still somewhat of a work in progress that needs a little more shaping up- like it was said, Nymphs inhabit a strange, difficult grey area in the way of handling. But basically, damages caused by the Nymph or neglect/abuse will be charged to the gardener, and crew will be charged with abuse as well for harm to the nymph. They will be given the same defense as a dog more or less, and nymph players will be either punished or rewarded justly for their behavior, with an item I will try to implement to actually capture Nymphs to make punishments possible. So make sure to love the good tree puppers and train the ones that need it- just remember though, this is not implemented yet, but animal cruelty laws are!


I ask for some patience for this to go through as staff currently have their hands full with other things, but if it is still a problem after I may re-evaluate my decision to keep the role unwhitelisted. I would like to keep it open to give people a chance at something rare and fun like station an AI, stationbound, or pAI even if they don't have an IPC whitelist, however I am willing on working with the community. But like I said, their behaviors are varied and need-driven like animals as they are seen as so greentide behavior is explained and therefore justified, and the worst that comes from a Nymph is being more or less just a greentide nuisance- no one can actually be killed by a nymph easily, but a nymph can be killed easily by the crew. So for now, I encourage you all to take it as IC issues and handle it ICly like anyone would with a dog.


P.S.- I know it matters little to most, but this thread's title should be on Diona Nymphs as that is what the primary topic is, not Dionaea, which refers to multiple Gestalts and not the small, individual organisms.

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[mention]Elohi Adanvdo[/mention] Thank you kindly for your explanation.

In the days since my original posting I've been working on somewhat of a set of guidelines for proper care for Dionaea nymphs.

Might I send it to you for review before making a suggestion of it up in policy suggestions?

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@Elohi Adanvdo Thank you kindly for your explanation.

In the days since my original posting I've been working on somewhat of a set of guidelines for proper care for Dionaea nymphs.

Might I send it to you for review before making a suggestion of it up in policy suggestions?

 

If you would like to, sure. I may also add some of my own things and tweak it, or maybe add yours to mine in the end because like I said, Nymphs hold an odd grey area and I have a lot of work cut out for me, with still things yet to be covered which may change things. But yes, suggestions/contributions etc are welcomed! It may serve as an excellent placeholder for now as well once I read through it.

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