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community feedback: Handheld flash rework + thoughts about the blind duration extensions.


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It's been a bit under a week, but this thread will likely stay up regardless and take feedback as we go.


Hello, self-proclaimed dirtbag contributor here! For context, the following two PRs are what I'm talking about.


https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4662


https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4919


So, more or less, I'll flat out admit I'm speaking with a bias when I say I'm otherwise satisfied with the general premise of the changes I made. Obviously some people are still getting used to the idea that flashes won't work vs. Humans/Skrell/Taj/Unathi, and they respond in a bit of a shocked way when their flash breaks through over-use and it's not instantly dropping someone without sunglasses or full face protection like a sack of potatoes.


I do believe the changes I made were justified, given it was one of the last legacy features of instantaneous, nil-force-used methods used to instantly stun someone or even keep them in a stunlock. I've seen a few situations where antagonists actually got the upper hand because of the stun being removed (and also because the people trying to use it as a stun didn't know it was removed, but, eh, c'est la vie), and managed to escape a situation that would've ended their round otherwise.


Obviously, some people who play security are not very pleased with the changes. Even some heads of staff who were liberal users of the flash to kick trespassing nerds out of their department were not happy about it. Some people have also stated they no longer use the flash because I nerfed it into a trash state of unreliability. I would generally like to hear more of these thoughts though, and how the changes have influenced their own gameplay.


Furthermore, do you think the game flow is better off without the stun mechanic attached to it? Do you think the blinds should be more significant than they are currently? Let me know by leaving a reply.

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I don't have an opinion on whether or not it's needed, but one possible compromise (if the current implementation of the flash nerf is determined to be too severe) would be to make getting flashed also reduce your walk speed temporarily. Then it would retain some actual stopping power, without totally decking someone like it did before.

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I don't have an opinion on whether or not it's needed, but one possible compromise (if the current implementation of the flash nerf is determined to be too severe) would be to make getting flashed also reduce your walk speed temporarily. Then it would retain some actual stopping power, without totally decking someone like it did before.

 

It's being taken into consideration. The large part of why the previous iteration of the flash was so oppressive was the duality of disabling it brought to the table. On one hand not only did it blind you, making you temporarily unable to react to something, but you also physically couldn't react due to your amount of control being locked down in a single input. And then again and again and again as those inputs were repeated due to how easy it was to retain that lockdown.


When used well, a blind as it is can be very oppressive to deal with, considering its duration right now (which, I'm told, is significant, but might not even be long enough! imagine buffing it up to like 15 seconds, wouldn't that just be delightfully horrid). There are indeed some drawbacks already implemented so perhaps it is worth adding a slow effect on top of the initial blind effect.

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The flash nerf wasn't needed in the first place. That's being proven with the amount of irritation given to security members struggling to arrest kids.

I would've been fine with the nerf if there was a buff to security's other tools, but for some reason that remained an afterthought, and as far as I know there have been 0 buffs/reworks to other tools to compensate for this.

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My only issue is that it further presses the issue of pepperspray hitting YOURSELF on many occasions, and not the actual person you're shooting at.


Also, this change is going to inspire further dislocations of legs in many stressful situations (e.g. on a cultie or something) rather than the flashspam you're used to. As far as flashes go, they're fine, but I just won't use them as religiously.

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I'll tone down my typical vocal-ness for the sake of being polite. I'm not a fan of the change, ever since it was suggested I've been against it. Flashes essentially have no use now, unless you want to permablind a Vaurca.

Sure, it makes people blind for a few seconds but lets be honest, what good does that do? If someone is attacking you, their cursor is already on you and swinging/shooting. If you use it aggressively, your target is mildly inconvenienced, and now probably emboldened to grab an actual weapon knowing your tool of choice is a flash. No longer are sunglasses or unwarranted welding goggles a cause for concern. Now security has to rely on means you can't defend yourself against (and yeah, pepperspray exists, but let's be realistic here).


Despite the yellow marker of the flash being tainted by the black ink of realism, never to be used again, this does at least bring up the opportunity to bring some improvements. In exchange for the flash nerf, I feel command flashes should be replaced. Pepperspray at the minimum, .45 pistol with flash rounds if I'm being bold (do flash rounds even work now with the nerf?).


In any case, the nerf is annoying, but not at all unexpected of the server. Realistically, I don't expect anything to good from this change, but we'll have to learn to deal with it. I will, however, be selling my soul to the nearest willing eldritch abomination to slightly loosen your shoelaces every day. Not enough to untie them and make you trip, but enough to cause a constant mild annoyance.


EDIT: I do have something nice to say, however. I do like the increased likelyhood of break. Honestly, I feel that would be enough of a nerf on it's own, but...ya know.

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I'm fairly indifferent to these changes, and I've played Security heavily since then. Flashes I've never found to be necessary when it comes to detainment.


Generally now I grapple a person, yes perhaps the grabbing code itself isn't the best, but a person avoiding the grapple is generally then dealt with other tools that an Officer has, as that becomes active physical resisting to an arrest.


I feel this has the merit of giving more breathing room to people but at the same time further constrain security in their enforcement capability.

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[mention]BurgerBB[/mention] There's a fair bit to unpack with your statement, but this is largely why I have the feedback thread. Why do you think the change wasn't needed?


Also, I don't think seeing security struggling to detain people with only a flash is a sign this change was a failure. Because it seems like, really, that they have a bad habit they need to work out of their system, and everything is working as intended. I mean, now it is, anyway.


There were plenty of compensation changes made to the flash. The combo potential of being flash - > baton -> flash -> batonned and being unable to really respond to it is fairly significant. All I did was really just add additional steps for a potential takedown condition. The additional requirements of effort being involved means that the victim of a blind attempt can still evade and fight back for a period of time. Though if someone is using the flash in its present form correctly, they may not actually stand for long at all.


[mention]Sytic[/mention] All spray weapons work similarly, but it otherwise seems fine with me, honestly, especially regarding the concern about security being 'forced' to utilize jointbreaks now. Which, honestly, if you've managed to dislocate both of someone's legs, didn't you already have enough time to slap cuffs on them and arrest them? I'm comfortable with security being forced to invest more effort if they have to arrest someone. Flashes were too good at what they did and were otherwise overloaded with mechanical advantages that it didn't need.


[mention]kyres1[/mention] That's one of the results of the overall suggestion I hoped people would definitely put some significant stock in. Being stunned for five seconds (one second short of the handcuff delay timer) was something that people vastly underestimated. It's much more difficult to handle prisoners now, especially since pepperspray is a limited, but refillable, resource. I think it's a fine change because the flash is no longer effective as a crutch for individuals to use and abuse. Given the wide availability it held in gameplay, it was definitely too impactful without any significant risk or injury involved. It's now enforced through mechanics into a specific niche of usability. Being blinded isn't nothing to scoff at, because you're physically unable to visually respond to what's going on your screen for five to seven seconds.


It's sad that certain people have written it off and thus haven't even tried to exploit it presently in combination with other tools at their disposal. But that's fine, really, the behavior of "spam click flash until they go horizontal" was exactly something I wanted to punish. Hilarious thought, though, that people are going to throw their flash away and suddenly they get turned horizontal by a malfunctioning borg that was very happy not to get flash cheesed.


[mention]Trazz666[/mention] They can't really have their cursor on you by the time you've blinded them for seven seconds. Because they have a white overlay on their screen, obstructing their view. Even if they were making general guesses about your possible location on screen, wouldn't it be smart to try and circle them and weave in additional attacks while they're blind and vulnerable? Just offering what someone could do better to defend against the hypothetical situation of, "my cursor is over your avatar, you're gonna get CLICKED, son-- oh wait I'm blind".


If you're an antagonist and worried about means that you can't defend yourself against, you should consider acquiring armor in the form of voidsuits and exploiting its advantages. Furthermore, buy a revolver or something if you're worried about losing a confrontation against security's other tools. You theoretically can't lose with a traitor revolver, unless you catastrophically miss every shot. If you're not a traitor, and some other form of antagonist, I suggest either exploiting what abilities you have presently or acquiring power in the same ways you do currently. The changes really didn't do too much against security during the later stages of the game when they're pursuing antagonists with lethal weapons. They weren't usually intent to take you down with a flash anyway.


All blinds have been globally buffed, on the subject of the .45 flash pistols. The vampire's blind is significantly extended for example, as are flash rounds, the explosive flash, flashbangs (although not their stun duration), and so on.


I'll consider adding pepperspray canisters to head of staff lockers.


[mention]Sharp[/mention] It's worth noting that I already know how to make passive grabs root people into place, but, this would create a potential issue with grabs becoming way too strong again.

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I just gotta say these changes are nice and people who say that they cant get the runners anymore just need to use their other tools (stunbaton, taser, pepperspray, etc. really guys, you have so many ways to get them just use em) The flash was a super easy way to neutralize antags and criminals to the point that the other tools were basically ignored, this nerf allows the other tools to be given more attention.


But I gotta say, please reduce the time borgs are disabled for flash, its crazy long and is annoying.

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the biggest issue with this is it's probably detrimental for antagonists, especially those without access to an easy disable. flashes are one of the more accessible tools on station, and you have to go to much greater lengths for another device to fill that niche.

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the biggest issue with this is it's probably detrimental for antagonists, especially those without access to an easy disable. flashes are one of the more accessible tools on station, and you have to go to much greater lengths for another device to fill that niche.

 

Double-edged sword, sadly. I'm not sure what I can do presently about that, since frankly a lot of antagonists at their baseline tend to be fairly limited at the start of a round in how they can disable and etc.

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But I gotta say, please reduce the time borgs are disabled for flash, its crazy long and is annoying.

 

This basically. I havent really seen the new flash in action at anything but borg. There were arguments that the meta, instant horizontal flash was shit, but against borgs its still a free 8-10 second stun, pretty sure it wasnt even that bad against non-borgs pre-change.


If it knocked out their camera, that'd be fine, as they can still move and talk, just not interact with anything around them, be it people or equipment.

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