Jump to content

[Declined] LordBalkara's Antag Loredev App


Recommended Posts

Ckey/BYOND Username: Lord_Balkara

 

Position Being Applied For: Lore Developer

 

Past Experiences/Knowledge: As far as lore goes? I haven't done much really. I've done some minor work here or there on the wiki as a wiki maintainer, but I don't really know enough about game mechanics to fix much more on the wiki outside of spelling mistakes. Except, that is, the lore itself. There are a few things here or there that just feel... bad, or underwhelming to me.

 

Examples of Past Work:

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=User:LordBalkara

I listed most of the wiki pages I've made any major contributions to on my userpage on the wiki. While this doesn't really show my writing ability that much, it might help show that I'm familiar enough with proper writing and wiki formatting.

 

Additional Comments: I wouldn't be surprised if this app got rejected, but I figured I'd make it anyway in the hopes of having a position for making the changes to Vox and Veil lore I want to see.

Some examples of ideas I've had:

 
  •  
  • Remove the Obsidian Seven, and have the precursor race (AKA Vox) be the ones who fought off the Veil.
  •  
  • Establish that the Vox we're seeing are the pirates and raiders who survived the Vox/Veil war by simply being self-interested enough to flee, yet still well-equipped enough to handle threats that they couldn't simply run from. And that most other Vox that survived were simply plundered into cultural extinction by the surviving Pirate Vox.
  •  
  • I've also considered establishing that the Vox's cortical stack's only preserve memories from the very previous life, and even then vaguely.
  •  
  • I've also thought about hinting at Vox working on bringing their species back, but naturally being terrible at it since they're just the pirates and scum of the Vox.

These changes would allow the Vox to keep their status as the simultaneous precursor and pirate race, while better explaining how they can be both.

In addition, I'd just like to be able to edit or fix a few inconsistencies on the Vox lore pages, such as the main species one stating they have no major ideological differences between them, despite the Tribes page's first two tribes being murderously cruel pirates and pacifist traders, two very conflicting ideologies.

Edited by Senpai Jackboot
Link to comment

Just so you're aware. I've been against every application of this nature.


The open ended and ambiguous nature of antagonist is there for a reason. It permits the player to fill in the blanks themselves when playing as opposed to railroading their gameplay.

Link to comment

The open ended and ambiguous nature of antagonist is there for a reason. It permits the player to fill in the blanks themselves when playing as opposed to railroading their gameplay.

I don't intend on restricting anyone, nor making any set in stone requirements for playing an antag. I just want to improve fluff and make the antag lore marginally less annoying to read. Nobody's going to be told how to play their antags, and most of what I write would be just some minor backstory to some factions that antags could freely choose to be a part of or not.

I might even edit some to be more open ended/free.

For example, the Merc page:

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Mercenary

"You're a ragtag hired gun; you've been hired by a corporation to deal with one of their most influential and well funded opponents: Nanotrasen Corporation. Together with your team you're going to help your hirer's company return to the top of the stock market and make sure NanoTrasen falls to the bottom.


A team of highly trained and deadly mercenaries has been hired to head out to the NSS Aurora and ensure the share holders re-consider their views on the almighty NanoTrasen. Luckily the mercenaries have access to a wide range of tools to assist them on their mission. Ranging from a simple revolver to the advanced energy crossbow you have the tools to get the job done."

Outright tells you your back story and motivation. I'm inclined to edit it to be way more vague and open ended, simply stating that you're armed, and for one reason or another intent on boarding the Aurora.

Link to comment

Just so you're aware. I've been against every application of this nature.


The open ended and ambiguous nature of antagonist is there for a reason. It permits the player to fill in the blanks themselves when playing as opposed to railroading their gameplay.

 

Vox lore is neither open-ended, nor ambiguous. It's a hyper-defined mess that half the time manages to contradict itself.


I'm saying this because that seems to be the main point of change; the supposed background being proposed here will give the open ended and ambiguous nature of antagonist you are talking about.

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

Now that I think about it, Syndicate lore could also use some TLC.

The main syndicate page:

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=The_Syndicate

Is an obscenely in-depth look at a supposedly shadowy and mainly unknown organization.

The history, goals, and functions are simply laid out for anyone to see after a simple search of "syndicate" on the wiki.

It lacks subtlety, and even has a few glaring contradictions/errors, like (Spoilered because it's a long quote):

In the 2460's the Syndicate had been expelled from most of the inner colonies of humanity, and spent the next few years consolidating power in The Frontier and out colonies. By 2457 The Syndicate had influenced a vast number of frontier governments and settlements to begin slowly expanding back into civilized space while ramping up operations, activating the sleeper cells that they've kept embedded within Nanotrasen to finally begin achieving their ultimate objective...

The syndicate being expelled 3 years before they began to return.

And lest you think that line about "their ultimate objective..." is subtlety, let me remind you that in the overview, it flatly states:

"Their ultimate objective is to destroy Nanotrasen and any government that supports it."

Really, antag lore could use some work.

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

The main syndicate page:

[snip]

Is an obscenely in-depth look at a supposedly shadowy and mainly unknown organization.

The history, goals, and functions are simply laid out for anyone to see after a simple search of "syndicate" on the wiki.

Is this a bad thing? Lore shouldn't be confusing or unknown OOCly. It should be available to players OOCly, and whether or not it's widely known IC is entirely different. Treating players like they can't separate the two disrespects both them, their characters, and the lore.

It lacks subtlety, and even has a few glaring contradictions/errors, like (Spoilered because it's a long quote):

[snip]

You have a point about the contradictions and errors, but that would be less of a job for an antag loredev and more of a general lore-maintainer. Contradictions within lore are a pet peeve of mine, but I don't think the loredevs individually are suited to fixing these, at least not on their own.

The subtlety, however, I don't really get. You don't really define what you mean by this, so "subtlety" effectively becomes a meaningless buzzword.

The syndicate being expelled 3 years before they began to return.

And lest you think that line about "their ultimate objective..." is subtlety, let me remind you that in the overview, it flatly states:

"Their ultimate objective is to destroy Nanotrasen and any government that supports it."

Really, antag lore could use some work.

Again- this could probably be actually known ICly through some sort of manifesto. And, again, it can be OOCly stated if it is true. I don't mean that you should be beating the players over the head with some things, but not everything has to be hidden and obscure- this is why people tend to disregard lore and substitute their own. It's either bad, obscure (to the point that even some loredevs and staff had no idea it was still on the wiki, etc), or outdated (to the point that loredevs acknowledge that it exists and is public, and may even be very easy to find, but doesn't accurately reflect their lore).


I'm also worried that if you did become an antag loredev, you would do what most other loredevs have done at some point and done a rewrite (including reverting other rewrites, technically) to bring it more in-line with your "personal vision" for the antags instead of the server's lore as a whole, as well as cultivating a consistent and interesting lore for players to read and incorporate. To that end, what will you do to make sure that this doesn't become another "someone's loredev for a few months, rewrites everything, then quits" incident if you are accepted? What are you going to do to make the lore fit the server's environment, atmosphere, other lore, and aims more than anyone's personal ideas for the lore (including your own)?


Aurora has good lore, and this includes antag lore, but a lot of it is badly incorporated or integrated, not fleshed out enough, abandoned, or not internally consistent. I'm worried that adding yet another loredev to this would do nothing to alleviate it and instead damage the coherency of the overall lore and story as a whole, while adding nothing for the players to enjoy besides yet another person's separate vision for the lore, completely divorced from the rest.


EDIT: Another thing. Lots of antags are, at least to an extent, lore-optional to make room for gimmicks. Traitors are just traitors in most circumstances (with a syndicate uplink of some sort, but it doesn't have to be used), not explicitly Syndicate sleeper agents. Like in the antag contest, it would be nice to have several minor/background antag factions you could base your antagging off of (like the Synthetic Liberation Front, etc) instead of more than just the Syndicate, etc. The Syndicate being defined as it is is not an issue, save for self-contradiction. A better thing would be to tidy up the inconsistencies and then add more options.


Please note that this is not necessarily a personal attack, just prompting some questions because of things I've observed while playing on Aurora and elsewhere. I'm very, very happy you're talking a lot about consistency in the lore. Seriously. You have no idea how happy this makes me.


At the very least, I would love it if some kind if (specifically antag?) lore maintainer role were created/added in order to fix all the inconsistencies that loredevs either don't have the time, scope, or willpower to handle themselves. These are small things that can make a huge difference in the player's perception of the lore.

Link to comment

Is this a bad thing? Lore shouldn't be confusing or unknown OOCly. It should be available to players OOCly, and whether or not it's widely known IC is entirely different. Treating players like they can't separate the two disrespects both them, their characters, and the lore.

[snip]

The subtlety, however, I don't really get. You don't really define what you mean by this, so "subtlety" effectively becomes a meaningless buzzword.

In the words of Jackboot, on another, rejected antag lore app:

Antagonist lore going into depth would defeat two major themes. One of which being the freeform nature of antagonists. This is both by design and by the fact admins have reacted with hostility in producing a coherent narrative for antagonists. Let not a player be restricted from gimmicks.


The second is mystery. The Cult has a 'prologue' section on their guide but that is it. The Syndicate is a mysterious organization. Having these groups spelled out and giving us all the OOC knowledge of their working would make them incredibly boring. Secret societies are only fascinating when they are secret. If we know everything about your agency then it's pretty boring but the second you put a padlock on your filing cabinets we have conspiracy theorists clawing at the doors demanding to see what's inside.

I agree with these points. Antag lore should be vague, and mysterious. Enough details to give you theories and ideas, but not so much that you know the entirety of an organization's origins, motives, and workings, as it is right now. That's what I mean by subtlety. Don't just tell people things about antags. Give them clues, enough to peak their interest, but not enough to be 100% sure of anything.

It's not about whether or not players could be trusted to know all the intricate details of each and every antag, it's about whether that harms or benefits the lore. Not to mention, it could be considered a need-to-know thing. I doubt a member of a secret criminal organization is going to know everything about it.

I'm also worried that if you did become an antag loredev, you would do what most other loredevs have done at some point and done a rewrite (including reverting other rewrites, technically) to bring it more in-line with your "personal vision" for the antags instead of the server's lore as a whole, as well as cultivating a consistent and interesting lore for players to read and incorporate. To that end, what will you do to make sure that this doesn't become another "someone's loredev for a few months, rewrites everything, then quits" incident if you are accepted? What are you going to do to make the lore fit the server's environment, atmosphere, other lore, and aims more than anyone's personal ideas for the lore (including your own)?


Aurora has good lore, and this includes antag lore, but a lot of it is badly incorporated or integrated, not fleshed out enough, abandoned, or not internally consistent. I'm worried that adding yet another loredev to this would do nothing to alleviate it and instead damage the coherency of the overall lore and story as a whole, while adding nothing for the players to enjoy besides yet another person's separate vision for the lore, completely divorced from the rest.

That's one of my biggest annoyances though. Most antag lore exists in a separate bubble from the rest of the lore. The only really exception is the Vox, and even they have very little effect or meaning in other species lore.

It'd take some coordination with loredevs, but I had an idea that could alleviate it a little, which I will elaborate on further down.


EDIT: Another thing. Lots of antags are, at least to an extent, lore-optional to make room for gimmicks. Traitors are just traitors in most circumstances (with a syndicate uplink of some sort, but it doesn't have to be used), not explicitly Syndicate sleeper agents. Like in the antag contest, it would be nice to have several minor/background antag factions you could base your antagging off of (like the Synthetic Liberation Front, etc) instead of more than just the Syndicate, etc.

That's something I've been considering. Turn syndicate page from an idiotically detailed biography of a secret organization no one knows even exists, into a short explanation of the syndicate and plenty of other "bad guys".

Bear in mind, none of these will be things people have to do. Just factions antags can look at and go "That's neat. I'll be one of them today."

It could have the Lii'dra, the ALA, and the Synthetic Liberation Front. Organizations people could be easily expected to know about. And maybe hint at a few others that are less well-known. Such as Skrell synth killers, or Dominian synth killers.

Please note that this is not necessarily a personal attack

I like constructive criticism.

Link to comment
  • 11 months later...
Guest Marlon Phoenix

Position will not be opened; the goals of an antag loredev can be achieved with existing positions. Locking and archiving.

Link to comment
  • Guest locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...