Staff Complaint-Flimango

#1
BYOND Key:Bygonehero
Staff BYOND Key: Flimango
Game ID:bSU-aJMf, bSU-a77B
Reason for complaint: Placed a note on my records, failed to provide the context of said note, additionally, the validity of the note is questionable, as by their own admission they could not see into my situation fully.
Evidence/logs/etc:
Additional remarks: A situation occurred between me and another player, who claimed I ganked them. I had interacted with them previously in engineering and had been doing malfunctioning stuff for a while. Additionally, I was very open about my attack of the player in question, in which several crew came to their defense. The note argues falsely that I ganked them, when they were armed, surrounded by people who would help them, and I had previously interacted with them. I believe Flimango's judgment to be in error, and that Flimango failed to account my own viewpoints of the situation.

Re: Staff Complaint-Flimango

#3
Hey. Rose, the victim & one who ahelped, here on mobile! Sorry if this is formatted poorly or if there are any typos.
Taken directly from a rant on discord:
"Literally only "interaction" I had with them was them flashing & teleporting Leah when she went at the engineer who stole the claymore she bought, after she pulled it out when he punched her in the jaw first. We (CE had noticed) knew it was malf but we were all preoccupied.
Leah finally gets her sword back and goes to head to medbay because she's a stubborn bitch and is bleeding out now from a fight with said engineer. She sees holocarp outside of the holodeck next to medbay which equals wrong for her. Since CT was called she called the northern lift. Research borg comes over, says "lets go" and starts pulling her in the direction of the holocarp. Leah pulls back, says don't touch me, and pulls out her claymore. (Context: Leah has no idea how to use a claymore. She only knows how to use knives. At this point she's going into shock and has no idea what's going on.)
He flashes her and starts pulling her into the empty elevator shaft, at which point Leah thinks, "oh shit, it's trying to kill me." Some other crew show up, yackety sax happens, she's stuck in robotics with nothing but her toolbelt. Leah tries to break out, so he comes over to saw her leg off (and succeeds) but Leah starts beating the borg with a wrench while the others try to save her. He flashes Leah and literally starts pulling her all over the place deeper into science, making her wounds worse. She passes out towards the sci lift after calling out for the CE, and later dies to her injuries. The ganker in question literally admitted in OOC that he only wanted an elevator kill.
Leah Siskin - NSS Aurora Cargo Technician
"I have a right to be heard, to be seen, to be loved, to be free, to be everything I need, to be me, to be safe, to believe in something." I Have A Right, Sonata Arctica

Re: Staff Complaint-Flimango

#4
Rosetango wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:10 pm
Hey. Rose, the victim & one who ahelped, here on mobile! Sorry if this is formatted poorly or if there are any typos.
Taken directly from a rant on discord:
"Literally only "interaction" I had with them was them flashing & teleporting Leah when she went at the engineer who stole the claymore she bought, after she pulled it out when he punched her in the jaw first. We (CE had noticed) knew it was malf but we were all preoccupied.
Leah finally gets her sword back and goes to head to medbay because she's a stubborn bitch and is bleeding out now from a fight with said engineer. She sees holocarp outside of the holodeck next to medbay which equals wrong for her. Since CT was called she called the northern lift. Research borg comes over, says "lets go" and starts pulling her in the direction of the holocarp. Leah pulls back, says don't touch me, and pulls out her claymore. (Context: Leah has no idea how to use a claymore. She only knows how to use knives. At this point she's going into shock and has no idea what's going on.)
He flashes her and starts pulling her into the empty elevator shaft, at which point Leah thinks, "oh shit, it's trying to kill me." Some other crew show up, yackety sax happens, she's stuck in robotics with nothing but her toolbelt. Leah tries to break out, so he comes over to saw her leg off (and succeeds) but Leah starts beating the borg with a wrench while the others try to save her. He flashes Leah and literally starts pulling her all over the place deeper into science, making her wounds worse. She passes out towards the sci lift after calling out for the CE, and later dies to her injuries. The ganker in question literally admitted in OOC that he only wanted an elevator kill.
Your story highlighted all the reasons it wasn't a gank. You knew something was up with the AI and borgs, I interacted with you by physically stopping your fight prior to this, you armed yourself after I started pulling you at the elevator, and you were being aided by several other crewmen. You ultimately got to fight back too. Keep in mind, to gank is to kill without roleplay or escalation. I believe I more than exceeded the required interaction, as I had done my job as an antag to make the round interesting. This is entirely the reason why I feel my complaint is just, as it is not a gank, nor were my assertions really looked into by Flimango. As for wanting an elevator kill, that's not a gank, that's just a cool way to kill someone. Wanting to kill someone a certain way does not mean they ganked you to make it so. By that logic, anyone who kills someone with something like explosives or sniper rifles is ganking, as its effects are equally immediate and lethal.

Re: Staff Complaint-Flimango

#5
Bygonehero wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:09 pm

Your story highlighted all the reasons it wasn't a gank. You knew something was up with the AI and borgs, I interacted with you by physically stopping your fight prior to this, you armed yourself after I started pulling you at the elevator, and you were being aided by several other crewmen. You ultimately got to fight back too. Keep in mind, to gank is to kill without roleplay or escalation. I believe I more than exceeded the required interaction, as I had done my job as an antag to make the round interesting. This is entirely the reason why I feel my complaint is just, as it is not a gank, nor were my assertions really looked into by Flimango. As for wanting an elevator kill, that's not a gank, that's just a cool way to kill someone. Wanting to kill someone a certain way does not mean they ganked you to make it so. By that logic, anyone who kills someone with something like explosives or sniper rifles is ganking, as its effects are equally immediate and lethal.
I was not aided by several other crew men in defending myself, they were trying to get me away from you. I was alone when you began pulling me, I backed up, said don't touch me, and then pulled out the claymore which I bought very early on into the shift. I have several questions for you, based on that round:

1. How does killing Leah make the round more interesting, especially when there are 15~ minutes left in the round?
2. Where was the escalation? What IC motivation did you have for killing Leah? Was she a threat to you?
3. Where was the roleplay? Stopping a fight by teleporting me and telling me "let's go" isn't really roleplay. I wouldn't be so upset about the death had there been more interaction.

I just think that the way my death occurred didn't really make the round more interesting or fun for any of the people involved. And I understand to gank is to kill without roleplay or escalation--of which I felt there was none of both because Leah had not acted out hostile-ly towards borgs until you started pulling her, and roleplay implies a decent amount of interaction--talking, emoting, etc.
Leah Siskin - NSS Aurora Cargo Technician
"I have a right to be heard, to be seen, to be loved, to be free, to be everything I need, to be me, to be safe, to believe in something." I Have A Right, Sonata Arctica

Re: Staff Complaint-Flimango

#6
I just think that the way my death occurred didn't really make the round more interesting or fun for any of the people involved.
I beg to differ, given how many people tried to save you. You were aided. They literally killed me to get to you. I died before you did.
. How does killing Leah make the round more interesting, especially when there are 15~ minutes left in the round?

You were friends with the CE, and the CE was on the AIs shitlist. The thought was using you as an example.
Where was the roleplay? Stopping a fight by teleporting me and telling me "let's go" isn't really roleplay. I wouldn't be so upset about the death had there been more interaction.
The roleplay was in the overall environment of the round. As you said, you spoke to the CE about malf AIs. I gave you a personal experience of this prior to attacking you. You are discounting everything else just because it doesn't include you. Should you ignore the holo carp and people destroying cameras too? The mere fact you spoke with the CE about the robots is a form of interaction, roleplay branching off. You knew I was malfunctioning.

Re: Staff Complaint-Flimango

#7
Hey guys sorry for the delay in getting to this, Valentine's Day and the days leading up to it are some of the busiest times of the year for me.

I am going to keep my responses brief, because I am both very tired, and I don't think I need to argue much about the actual interaction, which is better suited to a player complaint. To start, the reasons for your complaint:
Bygonehero wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:30 am
Reason for complaint: Placed a note on my records, failed to provide the context of said note...
I am not required to inform you of placing a note on your ckey, as they simply exist to keep a record of what a person was talked to about.
Bygonehero wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:30 am
..., additionally, the validity of the note is questionable, as by their own admission they could not see into my situation fully.
The note in question is open about the fact that I could not look into the situation fully, it is simply there to state that the interaction happened, and inform future readers that you were reminded to not kill people without proper escalation. That said, if I had thought without a doubt that it was gank, you would have received a warning or ban (based on your previous notes/warnings), due to the severity of the offense.

Re: Staff Complaint-Flimango

#8
The note is being expunged. I discussed this matter with @Ejundersc0re. Too many factors not accounted especially since an investigation was not fully completed due to a few factors out of their hand.

I'll also be contacting @Rosetango privately.

Keeping it open for 24 hours.
Byond Account: Aboshehab

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Spoiler:
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Re: Staff Complaint-Flimango

#9
This is resolved but I do just want to ask a relevant question to this kind of issue, in the Staff Vault, the following post is still pinned from our previous Head Administrator Doomberg:
This definition unfortunately leaves a lot to the imagination, thus creating many gray areas and resulting in numerous player complaints. Following our last staff meeting on the 18th of April, we tried to shed some light on what is and is not considered gank.

Neutralizing another character without roleplay is allowed /only/ under the following circumstances:
The character in question is a physical threat to you (he is armed or can be reasonably expected to be armed) and catches you in an illegal or otherwise compromising act.
The character in question fails to comply with your demands (for example, he yells for security over his headset despite being aimed at and told to remain silent).
This implies that gank punishments cannot be applied if you are attacking someone that is armed and can harm you - I just want to know if this is still the staff's policy.
Editor of the Aurora Tribune
Clerk of the NanoTrasen Worker's Association
Mentor in NT-ISD Discord

Re: Staff Complaint-Flimango

#10
Azande wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:23 pm
This is resolved but I do just want to ask a relevant question to this kind of issue, in the Staff Vault, the following post is still pinned from our previous Head Administrator Doomberg:
This definition unfortunately leaves a lot to the imagination, thus creating many gray areas and resulting in numerous player complaints. Following our last staff meeting on the 18th of April, we tried to shed some light on what is and is not considered gank.

Neutralizing another character without roleplay is allowed /only/ under the following circumstances:
The character in question is a physical threat to you (he is armed or can be reasonably expected to be armed) and catches you in an illegal or otherwise compromising act.
The character in question fails to comply with your demands (for example, he yells for security over his headset despite being aimed at and told to remain silent).
This implies that gank punishments cannot be applied if you are attacking someone that is armed and can harm you - I just want to know if this is still the staff's policy.
In general yes but not always. You probably shouldnt try to monologue before you shoot at the detective wielding a shotgun yah know?
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