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Player Complaint - Talc & ODIN


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BYOND Key: ParadoxSpace

Game ID: bTm-aUif

Player Byond Key: AimlessAnalyst & Sytic (I think)

Staff involved: None

Reason for complaint: Excessive memery/immaturity in their play of IPC's. https://i.imgur.com/QbpVUSF.png \ https://i.imgur.com/xDPAqZQ.png \ https://i.imgur.com/SMCcdCM.png \ https://i.imgur.com/vTSTmev.png \ https://i.imgur.com/SkhdHJL.png

The two of them are very prone to acting like 13 year olds rather than what one would normally expect as a serious attempt at roleplaying an IPC.

https://i.imgur.com/2LDoAJ7.png \ https://i.imgur.com/W4LAeUS.png

This specific round started with them having an actual slapfight over one walking past the other one which lasted atleast two minutes.

Detective Mike Barnes told them to knock it off and go to the holodeck (this fight ended up near the IA office) https://i.imgur.com/kSDo91R.png \ https://i.imgur.com/DZH43Cb.png

This was then completely ignored.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? No, it's a long term issue, and Cake is not an admin.

Approximate Date/Time: Around 11:00 MST, 3/12/2018

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Hey, ODIN here. The last image of ODIN being a meme was when he was shackled to the AI and stubbornly beginning to break apart at the seams in order to mess with people. ODIN is a security cadet because they are atypical and need to be taught regulations, as well as how to properly act around most crewmembers. I do not act silly on purpose to irritate people, ODIN was nothing but nice to Mike Barnes and it was not completely ignored, as the fight had ended. The round had only just started, it was just a simple minor goof, it was handled in character and both personas of ODIN and Talc are not lax on their duties as Security members.


If you want to bring up an issue particularly about their behaviour, I would personally in the future recommend an Incident Report to CCIAA, as it has never been my intention to dissuade ODIN from doing important Security duties critical to the station.


EDIT: Again, to reiterate, the slapfight ended when Barnes wanted it ended, breaking it up.

Edited by Guest
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The two were acting this way as their own gimmick after they'd been subverted by an AI, for the most part. Otherwise, they're friends that rough-house. While it may not entirely be appropriate, they weren't actually causing a ruckus that, in my opinion, violated OOC rules. They could've easily been asked to stop (and, to my understanding, did).


I wasn't around for the entire round anyways.

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Talc here.


At no point (when not subverted by an AI, at least,) do Talc's 'antics' get in the way of her acting like a good officer. She is polite, she is professional, she gets shit done. What she does in her free time (greeting a very close friend with some roughhousing and joshing around) and how she talks around friends, being lively and not very serious, shouldn't be reflective of how she operates when something comes up.


Barring this malf round, they've always, without fail, immediately sat up straight and ran off to catch whatever issue came up if something came over comms or they were told to do something.


This feels much more like an IC issue than a player complaint thing, to be honest.

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Allow me to clarify, since you don't seem to get it.


All IPCs themselves are subject to quirks of being a free intelligence after a slaved intelligence. Gaining sapience from sentience with the snap of a finger. As such, literally just calling someone 'nerd' or messing around with friends in and of itself isn't unnatural for IPCs, especially IPCs who aren't that old to begin with. Beyond this, IPCs have only been in manufactories within the past 20 years. As such, We haven't had the decades to iron them out as we do Cyborgs or other bound AI.


I mean, Cake can correct me if I'm wrong but yeah.

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Stay on topic, this means that the posts should be constructive and focus on the complaint itself only. Any off-topic post made will be removed and met with a reminder to remain on topic.

 

A reminder this is a thing as I've had to delete a few posts. I'll be applying warnings in the future.


Any issues with the race as a whole should be directed to the lore developer and deputy themselves.

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Allow me to clarify, since you don't seem to get it.


All IPCs themselves are subject to quirks of being a free intelligence after a slaved intelligence. Gaining sapience from sentience with the snap of a finger. As such, literally just calling someone 'nerd' or messing around with friends in and of itself isn't unnatural for IPCs, especially IPCs who aren't that old to begin with. Beyond this, IPCs have only been in manufactories within the past 20 years. As such, We haven't had the decades to iron them out as we do Cyborgs or other bound AI.


I mean, Cake can correct me if I'm wrong but yeah.

 

3594eccde8.png

 

The problem in this complaint I believe is a systemic issue and not one with any particular player, I am not alone in these observations, so I do not feel that this complaint has merit in no small part to both reasons above.

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Hello! I will be handling this complaint. Sorry for the delay in response. To clarify, the real issues arose only after subversion by the AI yes? Prior to that, they kept their antics contained and stopped when asked?

 

I believe it happened before subversion, though I'm not 100% on that.

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Hello! I will be handling this complaint. Sorry for the delay in response. To clarify, the real issues arose only after subversion by the AI yes? Prior to that, they kept their antics contained and stopped when asked?

 

The antics were contained and stopped when asked, as it only involved ODIN and Talc, and when the detective wanted them to put a stop to it they did.

 

On the topic of immaturity I have seen both ODIN and Noir spam the stairs tripping action causing a thwacking noise and text to pop up saying "X falls flat on their face." And it happens over and over and over.

 

Alright, I'll stop. You could have just asked me in like a DM over discord or something.

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@ParadoxSpace It was after. I converted Talc, at least, early on and had Noir and Talc forcibly convert Odin. This was within the first... maybe 30 minutes ish.

 

This is a confusing part of the actual argument, and I'll explain why.


This all happened before the AI had an influence on our actions, but it was contained and controlled to between us two, and when the Detective wanted it to cease it was stopped. This was a quickly solved IC issue at roundstart that had no effect on the round whatsoever. Later on, there was subversion and the robots started acting incredibly inappropriately (https://imgur.com/SkhdHJL <- This image, quoted as being an "excessive meme" was very inappropriate, but it was after the subversion, unlike everything else in Paradox's argument. This is what makes this so confusing.)


Cake and Kyres both looked into ODIN's character and found no issues with me as a player whitelisted for IPC's beyond an excessive use of swears, which I will try to control in the future.

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Meh; Honestly, I feel this complaint isn't well-grounded as you're only giving examples that look severely outlandish, which would be v rare anyway. As someone who plays on the server a *fucking lot*, I can confidently say while Odin is a goofball, he's not out of the norm for IPCs. And Talc, one who I have little experience with, is still someone who can (and will) be mature, and a good officer when needed.


If your issue is the laid-out issues with IPCs and the quirks in their personalities developed to make them who they are, I'd suggest poking Cake with a complaint and getting people to sign it. Otherwise; changing a single IPC when they're following their lore is a little asinine.

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Hello again! Sorry for the delayed response. After chatting with lore people and all that jazz, Tomiix and I have decided that this is more of an IC issue than a violation of rules. In regards to the 'spamming' staircase tripping, we'd ask that you stop but that aside, this is an IC issue if you believe the characters are unfit for their role. If the jokes were self contained and stopped when another character outside of the joke asked then it is just that, a joke between two IC friends goofing off. Leaving open for a day for any additional info presented.

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Hello again! Sorry for the delayed response. After chatting with lore people and all that jazz, Tomiix and I have decided that this is more of an IC issue than a violation of rules. In regards to the 'spamming' staircase tripping, we'd ask that you stop but that aside, this is an IC issue if you believe the characters are unfit for their role.

 

ParadoxSpace didn't once mention them being unfit for their role, he mentioned them not trying to roleplay properly.

Labelling your full uniform "COOL SHIT" and calling people "NEVER FRIENDS" while emoting crying isn't roleplaying. Even if you're subverted, you shouldn't be calling people 'mai waifu'.

 

If the jokes were self contained and stopped when another character outside of the joke asked then it is just that, a joke between two IC friends goofing off. Leaving open for a day for any additional info presented.

You shouldn't need to ICly ask people to roleplay seriously. That should be a given. OOC jokes between friends is fine, but if it's reached a point where ParadoxSpace has found it necessary to make a complaint, then it's being radically overdone.

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This immature humanbot gameplay has been an issue with ODIN since before they even got their whitelist for IPC. They acted like this when they were a borg, it was brought up in their whitelist app and they acknowledged the need to improve (they didnt) and they further acknowledged their need to improve after they were accepted, which again was just telling us what we wanted to hear.


When asked what makes IPC characters different in their app, their answer was "A lack of empathy, and a lack of most human and alien emotions." I can say with full confidence that in the, what, 5 months since they got whitelisted they haven't even bothered trying to roleplay this. If we're actually going to start doing something about the state of IPC roleplay then we should actually start somewhere at some point.

 

 

Sytic knows that the problem is with their roleplay. They just don't care and don't intend to improve on it. They have it set in their mind what kind of character they want to play and thats how they're going to play it.

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Being an IPC doesn't mean you can get away scott free with just griefing around and being an arsehole. Sure, an ipc CAN potentially have some emotions, But usually, Nanotrasen would weed out ones which act like clowns or cause problems in the workplace. I don't know enough about this situation myself to go further than this by much, But MAN, This is giving me bad memories of bloke 2. A shell IPC who was, Litterally, A bald greyshirt for most of my time spent with them. He tended to tear up floor tiles in the bar, weld people in lockers.... This is likely not as bad as bloke, but it's still giving me bad memories... This isn't good roleplay.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

Even when subverted, this behavior does not seem appropriate. Calling these out as isolated incidents is not a completely substantial defense. If there were only 1 or 2 lines of dialogue that would be one thing, but there is clearly a large backlog of catalogued evidence. In addition this behavior does not appear isolated or in solitude. A lot of the behavior is visible to other characters and players, especially through the labeling of the locker. Being subverted is not an excuse to pick up all of the expectations placed on you and just throw them out of the window. The AI's we have established as a basis for subverted synthetics within the lore did not run around hilariously meme'ing people.


Unless additional evidence comes to light I am going to defer to Calion since they are handling the complaint, but for myself I am advising that this behavior from ODIN and Talc be toned down because it will definitely become a more formal issue down the line.

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snip

 

ParadoxSpace didn't once mention them being unfit for their role, he mentioned them not trying to roleplay properly.

Labelling your full uniform "COOL SHIT" and calling people "NEVER FRIENDS" while emoting crying isn't roleplaying. Even if you're subverted, you shouldn't be calling people 'mai waifu'.

 

snip

You shouldn't need to ICly ask people to roleplay seriously. That should be a given. OOC jokes between friends is fine, but if it's reached a point where ParadoxSpace has found it necessary to make a complaint, then it's being radically overdone.

 

Given that Paradox only stated one round where this was a problem, this was assuredly an outlier. This had been a very stressful day for me and AA, and so I went overboard. This is my bad. I will say, however, that labelling their uniform the way they have been is inappropriate if you deem it so, and I'll stop. The last thing I want to do is step on toes. This was a slip in roleplay quality on some occasions during the round, and I apologise for that.

 

 

The interesting emotion in question is their humour and bouncing attitude, their seriousness did not come up in this complaint (and they were very serious reporting the issue of the AI being subverted, if you want to pull logs, ODIN stated the issue flat, with no drama involved) and the only evidence included was of their goof-off time at a difficult day at the beginning of a round. There has been many rounds where ODIN has had to be serious, polite and efficient. For example, Coalf's event round in January on the 27th, ODIN stated that they required more intelligence before doing anything dramatic, the Head of Security didn't listen and we got a "bad end" for the event round. Another example, during CCIAA interviews and speaking to suspects of potential IR cases, ODIN is serious as it warrants a serious situation. When shot with an Ion by Carmichael, ODIN doesn't jump on the bandwagon to get him fired with Decanus and Noir, but just states it was a bad call and everybody made mistakes in the situation involved. ODIN has been serious in the past, and will continue to be for situations that warrant it or when people begin to go overboard. I'd also like to remind you that that PM is still there, still available for reply, and you can always reply to it to give me some feedback if you want.

 

Being an IPC doesn't mean you can get away scott free with just griefing around and being an arsehole. Sure, an ipc CAN potentially have some emotions, But usually, Nanotrasen would weed out ones which act like clowns or cause problems in the workplace. I don't know enough about this situation myself to go further than this by much, But MAN, This is giving me bad memories of bloke 2. A shell IPC who was, Litterally, A bald greyshirt for most of my time spent with them. He tended to tear up floor tiles in the bar, weld people in lockers.... This is likely not as bad as bloke, but it's still giving me bad memories... This isn't good roleplay.

 

I remember Bloke 2, and ODIN has never done anything to cause a problem in the workplace, and if they did they put a stop to it when asked. ODIN does not grief, and if I'm being an arsehole please come to me and I'll try and sort it out.

 

Even when subverted, this behavior does not seem appropriate. Calling these out as isolated incidents is not a completely substantial defense. If there were only 1 or 2 lines of dialogue that would be one thing, but there is clearly a large backlog of catalogued evidence. In addition this behavior does not appear isolated or in solitude. A lot of the behavior is visible to other characters and players, especially through the labeling of the locker. Being subverted is not an excuse to pick up all of the expectations placed on you and just throw them out of the window. The AI's we have established as a basis for subverted synthetics within the lore did not run around hilariously meme'ing people.


Unless additional evidence comes to light I am going to defer to Calion since they are handling the complaint, but for myself I am advising that this behavior from ODIN and Talc be toned down because it will definitely become a more formal issue down the line.

 

The locker naming will stop upon asked, and this is not a backlog of catalogued evidence, as this is from one round where I had a slip in roleplay quality due to the stress of exams and talking to AA about an IR report they got earlier in the day. On regards to subversion, I only had ODIN act strange because that's what their fellow IPC's who were subverted did. They acted strange, so I acted strange, and made it seem appropriately off. But if that's not alright, I won't do it again, and will tone down the behaviour at your request.

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At this point, I feel like the main issue has been taken care of, and now a lot of you are grasping at straws over issues we would have stopped if someone had said something beforehand. Things that are't complaint-worthy. We have both spoken to both Cake and Kyres, who show no concern with how these two are played. This seems to have drifted from "I have a serious problem with these characters" and into "I just don't like ODIN" territory. Syt's agreed to tone down ODIN's swearing, but some of this honestly feels asinine, like being upset over a locker label.


We have stated time and time again that ODIN and Talc can and will be utterly serious and respectful when the situation requires. When asked to stop, they stop. Are IPCs no longer allowed to ever goof off when they're not busy, or what? Programmed or not, there's still a sapient, aware mind in both of them.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

At this point, I feel like the main issue has been taken care of, and now a lot of you are grasping at straws over issues we would have stopped if someone had said something beforehand. Things that are't complaint-worthy. We have both spoken to both Cake and Kyres, who show no concern with how these two are played. This seems to have drifted from "I have a serious problem with these characters" and into "I just don't like ODIN" territory. Syt's agreed to tone down ODIN's swearing, but some of this honestly feels asinine, like being upset over a locker label.


We have stated time and time again that ODIN and Talc can and will be utterly serious and respectful when the situation requires. When asked to stop, they stop. Are IPCs no longer allowed to ever goof off when they're not busy, or what? Programmed or not, there's still a sapient, aware mind in both of them.

 

This was determine to be an administration issue and not a whitelist issue because I assumed that you understood the issues with the playstyle you had. This post does not seem to show good faith. You are not taking the effort to understand why the behavior is an issue.


It is not one specific behavior. The issue is all of the small issues coalesced together. Imagine that my Tajara Jawdat, the stone faced beuacrat, when given an antag role transformed into a cute, cuddly snuggle-bum who used tildes in text excessively and demanded people pet him between the ears. None of that is against the rules, but the behavior is still problematic. I would not be very persuasive if I argued that neither of those specific behaviors were against the rules. Yes, you're technically right, but we're not zoning in one that ONE specific behavior. It's all of it together.


That is the same with your IPC. It is not one specific behavior but a trend being set. No one is saying you are not allowed to goof off, but there are limits. I was given a note for naming a mecha "CLASSLESS SOCIETY" because it passed the line drawn down on how goofy you can be.


Labelling a locker 'MY SHIT', boxing people in the halls, and the rest of the behavior is effectively salsa-dancing over that line.

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