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[RESOLVED] Character Complaint - Paul Jonson


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BYOND Key: Ornias

Game ID:bTy-dne9

Player Byond Key: (Don't know key. Char Name Paul Jonson)

Staff involved: Zelmana

Reason for complaint: Using OOC measures to shut down a visitor character's backstory and lore.

First few things that need clarification. My visitor character is James Turner, a Gilthari Exports Legal Representative, who is going around various stations to understand their safety measures and precautions to avoid employees of Gilthari Exports, and the upcoming GES Agrippa, being hurt.

Setup:

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For conveniences sake, I'll note that Gilthari Exports is an option under the character creation 'factions' menu, although I do not believe that is necessary information in this case.

Earlier in the round, I'd been around and spoken with various people about their work aboard the NSS Aurora, and the safety measures in their departments. This is something I do once in a blue moon, and it's a lot of fun; it's exactly what the visitor role should be used for, IMO.


Then, I spoke with a roboticist. They were playing someone who was objectionable towards my character, and I found it enjoyable. They PDA'd various people, including the Head of Security and the captain, saying that I was trying to 'inspect' robotics. This wasn't true, but again, all entirely IC; I had no issue with what they had done. Then, when speaking, Captain Paul Jonson came up behind me, and asked me what I was doing. I explained that I was here under the Biesel Corporate Safety Act, that I worked for Gilthari Exports, and that I was trying to get information on workplace safety aboard the Aurora.

This is where the issue began:

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This is enough to set off a few red flags, because it seems that he's trying to argue that the company doesn't exist by public appeal. He then asks for me to PDA him a link to the company website.

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Finally;

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Now I don't expect people to bend the knee at the Holy Visitor Gimmick™, that's not what the complaint is. The complaint is that he actively took steps to OOCly disavow the existence of the company and of my gimmick. He didn't say "We have no way to connect to the Extranet from here, and I wasn't briefed, so we're going to limit your access to a few places/put you on a guided tour/connect you with this engineer for any questions you may have". He said "the page doesn't exist", trying to RP the world completely contrary to the character I was playing. This was OOCly claiming it didn't exist by saying the website didn't exist, by saying it wasn't on the extranet.


He's allowed to have not heard of a company before, sure; but claiming that it doesn't exist because you don't want to deal with it is not appropriate play for anyone, least of all a head of staff. If you have a serious issue with someones IC lore, it needs to be ahelped. Otherwise, unless we want to say that it's totally acceptable to claim that all non-approved player-lore can be handwaved away by whoever's there at the time, this can't be allowed. If someones records said they were in the "Biesel Police Vice Department, Stonecreek", and a captain said "Stonecreek isn't a real place in Biesel!", or if someone said "My favorite movie is 'The Skrellian Prince'" and someones aid "I can't see that movie anywhere online! It doesn't exist!" that would be the same problem; even if there's no mention of something, vehemently claiming anything not on the wiki doesn't exist isn't appropriate roleplay.


Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes. Zelmana was very helpful, but advised that I make a player complaint because it was rather hard to get everything across over ahelps and it would have taken far too long.

Approximate Date/Time: 3/26/2018. Don't know the time sorry :^(

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First of all, I would like to mention a few things:

It´s always nice to only post very specific parts of a conversation

The possibility of spies on the station has been established by the lore and is a very real one.

(We even have paperwork on how to identify a spy in our forms system)


Well, sometime towards the two hour mark, I have received a PDA message from our roboticist, about a suspicious person that is asking questions about their workplace.

I inquired who that person might be and they replied that it is James Turner and mention that they might be a corporate spy.


So I head there and indeed notice them standing in front of robotics and questioning them.

I inquire regarding their employer and their reason for questioning the robotics staff.

They mention a company (Gilthari Exports) and the Corporate Safety Act 2455 both of which I have never heard of OOCly.

During the conversation they mentioned that their employer is the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti.

So I check the forums and the wiki, both came up empty.


If Gilthari Exports is the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti (and not NT) then I am sure there would be a single mention of them somewhere on the wiki or the forums.

For good measure I ask the HoS that came by if he knew about that company or the Corporate Safety Act, he didnt know about that aswell

Now I ask the HoP, again nothing.


Then I ahelp and ask if that is something I should know about.


Now, after every single head of staff told me that they didnt know about the company that is supposedly the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti I was intrigued and confused.

How is it possible that not a single person on command staff knows about "the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti".


During the conversation they repeatedly tried to use standard social engineering tactics:

  • Pressuring the other party.
  • Trying to scare them by threatening them with their superiors.
  • Trying to make the matter time sensitive.

All these are basic social engineering tactics that are used to pressure someone into doing something that they shouldn't.

Given the very real possibility of spies within our lore it is reasonable that command staff and especially the captain is trained in recognizing these tactics.


Now I was almost certain that I have a corporate spy infront of me.

  • They have been reported as inquiring into sensitive areas
  • They used "the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti" as reference and not a single one of my heads of staff knew about it
  • They attempted to use basic social engineering tactics.

 

So as a last attempt I inquired if they have a website where I can verify their claims (I expected a link to the wiki, or the forums as the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti would surely be mentioned somewhere)

All I got, was a made up link.

So yes. I shut it down.

I had enough reason to believe that they are a corporate spy. And Zelmana informed me that they are not the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti and that I do not have to know about this company.


Therefore I prohibited them from interviewing personnel from the security, engineering or research department and let them off.

I explicitly told them that they may interview personnel from the service, supply and the medical department.


With all these clues that they are a corporate spy, I could have easily thrown them into security and have the detective question them and ask security to question any person they have talked with to determine what intelligence they might have extracted from them,

I didnt. I merely warned them not to question engineering, security and research about their workplace.


Now as a final note: If you want to play a visitor that questions people regarding their workplace, then please do the following things:

  • Do not claim that you are from the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti, when you are not
  • Do not try to use social engineering tactics on the captain of the station
  • Maybe introduce yourself at the start of the shift to the captain, so he is aware of your presence and he can tell the departments that "Yeah, that visitor is alright."

If you dont inform command of your presence, question people regarding their departments, provide false references and use social engineering tactics then you have to expect to be treated as a corporate spy.


Edit: I might have mixed up the chain of events a bit, but it was about 2am in the morning

Edited by Guest
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You've misunderstood my complaint - I've attempted to explain properly my issue here. This is a complaint on you OOCly deciding what does and doesn't exist to fit your IC opinions and actions, not on your IC actions. Thus, I've italicised in your quotes things that are purely about your IC play, and that I thus am not making a complaint on.

LONG POST:

First of all, I would like to mention a few things:

It´s always nice to only post very specific parts of a conversation

Kind of important to start off: I posted everything that I considered necessary. The entire conversation spanned quite a period, although it was mostly retrudging the same issue in various lights, and as this was not a complaint about your IC attitude towards me (though I did not feel it was exemplary), I did not include it.

 

The possibility of spies on the station has been established by the lore and is a very real one.

(We even have paperwork on how to identify a spy in our forms system)

Well, sometime towards the two hour mark, I have received a PDA message from our roboticist, about a suspicious person that is asking questions about their workplace.

I inquired who that person might be and they replied that it is James Turner and mention that they might be a corporate spy.

I heavily encourage you to be questioning of Solarian characters. My character was very specifically made to be suspicious, with all the conflict it causes - I've had several enjoyable experiences with heads of staff in the past telling me to be careful about what I ask so I don't get arrested, the roboticist at the time was doing an excellent job role-playing suspicion and disdain. Again, as long as it's done tastefully, you're within your rights to be suspicious.

 

So I head there and indeed notice them standing in front of robotics and questioning them.

I inquire regarding their employer and their reason for questioning the robotics staff.

They mention a company (Gilthari Exports) and the Corporate Safety Act 2455 both of which I have never heard of OOCly.

During the conversation they mentioned that their employer is the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti.

So I check the forums and the wiki, both came up empty.

Important to note why I said that it was the biggest exporter in Tau Ceti. In-game and in the wiki, the only mention of any export company in Tau Ceti was under factions. These are stated alongside such giants as Einstein Engines, Hephaestus Industries, and Nanotrasen. It was quite a reasonable assumption to make that the company was the leader in its field.

 

If Gilthari Exports is the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti (and not NT) then I am sure there would be a single mention of them somewhere on the wiki or the forums.

For good measure I ask the HoS that came by if he knew about that company or the Corporate Safety Act, he didnt know about that aswell

Now I ask the HoP, again nothing.


Then I ahelp and ask if that is something I should know about.


Now, after every single head of staff told me that they didnt know about the company that is supposedly the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti I was intrigued and confused.

How is it possible that not a single person on command staff knows about "the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti".

I'll be not one of those heads of staff would have heard of many established lore events either - there are things that people would seemingly know that they don't. Public appeal is not a reason to OOCly shut someone down.

 

During the conversation they repeatedly tried to use standard social engineering tactics:

  • Pressuring the other party.
  • Trying to scare them by threatening them with their superiors.
  • Trying to make the matter time sensitive.


All these are basic social engineering tactics that are used to pressure someone into doing something that they shouldn't.

Given the very real possibility of spies within our lore it is reasonable that command staff and especially the captain is trained in recognizing these tactics.

Again, I'll note: there is no issue with noting and being cautious about this. I encoruage it. It's interesting to be stalked from the shadows by a detective, or to speak with a scientist who's been told to be clammy as anything, or to know I'm on thin ice. I have no problem with you noting that I may be a spy, and being a tad cautious.

 

Now I was almost certain that I have a corporate spy in front of me.

  • They have been reported as inquiring into sensitive areas
  • They used "the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti" as reference and not a single one of my heads of staff knew about it
  • They attempted to use basic social engineering tactics.

Again, sure, corporate spy, IC will be IC. This is not the issue.

 

So as a last attempt I inquired if they have a website where I can verify their claims (I expected a link to the wiki, or the forums as the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti would surely be mentioned somewhere)

All I got, was a made up link.

So yes. I shut it down.

This is the issue. This and claiming it wasn't in the database. You asked for a link ICly. I gave you an IC link. You claimed it did not exist. This isn't some "oh, I thought that he was playing a spy, and the website didn't actually exist!!". This was a conscious effort, despite you knowing full well that I was trying to roleplay being from that company, to shut that down. You don't get to do that OOCly. Sure, ICly, you could have had me trailed as a potential threat. But you don't get to say that something OOCly doesn't exist because you don't want it to.

I'll use an analogy; somebody pulls those ex-military security officers up on their records, says "I've never heard of the 351st Eagle Corps! It doesn't exist!". You say "it does!", they say "it doesn't! I can't find it online, and the website you gave me doesn't exist!". That's literally the definition of powergaming - not in our sense, maybe, but in the traditional roleplaying sense, where you try to undermine someones character or actions by deciding things for them.

It was on my records. If you had an issue with the company, you should have ahelped there and then - instead, you knowingly tried to solve your OOC grievance with it ICly by forcing me to admit that a company that my character works for doesn't exist.

 

I had enough reason to believe that they are a corporate spy. And Zelmana informed me that they are not the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti and that I do not have to know about this company.

Again, nobody has an issue with you not knowing about its existence: there's a difference between "I've never heard of it" and "I've looked on our extensive database and the website link you've given me and I can't find it!".

 

Therefore I prohibited them from interviewing personnel from the security, engineering or research department and let them off.

I explicitly told them that they may interview personnel from the service, supply and the medical department.

Again this is fine and interesting.

 

With all these clues that they are a corporate spy, I could have easily thrown them into security and have the detective question them and ask security to question any person they have talked with to determine what intelligence they might have extracted from them,

I didnt. I merely warned them not to question engineering, security and research about their workplace.

This would have been over the line; a visitor who is aboard the station with a company name in his records shouldn't be arrested because the captain doesn't know about the company; but, again, that's not the topic of this complaint.

 

Now as a final note: If you want to play a visitor that questions people regarding their workplace, then please do the following things:

  • Do not claim that you are from the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti, when you are not

  • Do not try to use social engineering tactics on the captain of the station
  • Maybe introduce yourself at the start of the shift to the captain, so he is aware of your presence and he can tell the departments that "Yeah, that visitor is alright."

1. This was a completely legitimate error that you're fully aware was done by OOC error rather than IC lying. You tried to force this OOC mistake into IC, rather than ahelping it.

2. I'll play my character and accept the IC consequences. IC actions are not the topic of this complaint.

3. See above.

 

If you dont inform command of your presence, question people regarding their departments, provide false references and use social engineering tactics then you have to expect to be treated as a corporate spy.

I do. I am not making a complaint on your IC play - only on your OOC attempt to force that the company didn't exist so you could be in the right. Saying I provided "false references" is entirely the point - it's not your place to decide what's legitimate and what's not. If you had an issue, you should have ahelped or asked LOOCly about it, rather than trying to force it ICly.


Also:

Oh, and in case you try to claim that you never said that Gilthari Exports is the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti like you did in LOOC.

I never claimed that.

 

 

So basically it boils down to this: if I had not said "Gilthari Exports is the biggest exporter in Tau Ceti", would you have believed me? There's no right answer, because:

  • Yes, in which case you are knowingly taking an OOC mistake and applying it ICly. There is no fair reason to be doing this at all; it is a completely reasonable and legitimate mistake to make, and I would find it extremely hard to believe you weren't aware that I genuinely believed that it was.
  • No, in which case the problem was not with the size and status of the corporation, but of not wanting to acknowledge it's existence at all.

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Alrighty, Strudels insight now.


I feel like there were flaws on both sides, but I can see where Arrow was coming from. After reviewing the logs (and listed up above), there are many instances of you refering to this company as "the largest exporter of Tau Ceti", when no where in lore does it state this concrete. On the server, we encourage people to input small buisnesses and corporations within the universe so it feels more open, but just outright claiming something is the largest exporter in Tau Ceti when the only defining lore behind it is that its in the factions selection tab doesn't really make much sense. Quotes like "bTy-dne9 SAY: Ornias/(James Turner) : (Ceti Basic) You must have heard of Gilthari Exports, sir. The single largest corporate-" are really forcing on other peoples roleplay, even without any concrete evidence. As said above, there's one mention of the company from a post in 2014, there's not information on the Wiki, or any other location.


In addition to this, other players were uncomfortable with your questioning,

 

bTy-dne9 PDA: Adam Clark (PDA: PDA-Adam Clark (Biomechanical Engineer)) sent "James Turner. Possible corporate spy." to PDA-Paul Jonson (Captain)

bTy-dne9 WHISPER: -/(Adam Clark) : (Unknown) The guy has corporate spy written all over his face.

 

You get seemingly innocent questions along the lines of

 

Ornias/(James Turner) : (Ceti Basic) Oh, I see. How have you found the shift between working with primarily Skrellian patients and primarily Human?

 

And then a few questions later you start asking if the station is up to par with its equipment, seemingly trying to find some flaw with the station.

 

Ornias/(James Turner) : (Noise) nods with practiced sympathy, "I expect it would be. Now, you work as a surgeon here. Could you tell me about the tools and operating rooms aboard this facility? Are they up to par?"

 

When speaking to an IPC engineer, Comms are lost, and you ask questions without much follow up, almost as if you are trying to collect dirt to help your company in another way.

 

SAY: Ornias/(James Turner) : (Noise) asks with hidden interest, "Does that happen often?"

 


In all honesty, I can get being angry about having your gimmick shut down, but in reality, if you're going to play someone working for a huge corporation or something along those lines, Ahelp it first, inform command that you're here to ask some questions for your company, etc. etc. Most players are willing to work with your gimmick, but when you come in and force something that is not concrete in lore, its probably not going to work out well with backup from Admins, CCIAA, or the other players.


Though side note, I do feel that how Arrow handled the situation was maybe not the best possible way, but they really seem to be within their rights. There's no way to verify that the link would be real or not, seeing as PDAs probably (don't quote me on this, just headcanon) don't have access to the extranet. You could have sent something to CCIAA about the visitor they allowed on, got some info from them. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to get involved in the round some how, seeing as most of their work is tied down as is, give them some stuff to do that isn't pure paperwork!

"

Tl;dr I don't feel this really warrants any further action, the captain in question from his knowledge was dealing with a corporate spy, and the visitor in question was asking some shady questions. The actions taken against said visitor are a bit shaky, but from an IC standpoint I can understand, probably not the best course of action to take, but none of us are perfect.


I'd love to get the feedback on this from both [mention]Ornias[/mention] and [mention]Arrow768[/mention]

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bTy-dne9 PDA: Adam Clark (PDA: PDA-Adam Clark (Biomechanical Engineer)) sent "James Turner. Possible corporate spy." to PDA-Paul Jonson (Captain)

bTy-dne9 WHISPER: -/(Adam Clark) : (Unknown) The guy has corporate spy written all over his face.

 

You get seemingly innocent questions along the lines of

 

Ornias/(James Turner) : (Ceti Basic) Oh, I see. How have you found the shift between working with primarily Skrellian patients and primarily Human?

 

And then a few questions later you start asking if the station is up to par with its equipment, seemingly trying to find some flaw with the station.

 

Ornias/(James Turner) : (Noise) nods with practiced sympathy, "I expect it would be. Now, you work as a surgeon here. Could you tell me about the tools and operating rooms aboard this facility? Are they up to par?"

 

When speaking to an IPC engineer, Comms are lost, and you ask questions without much follow up, almost as if you are trying to collect dirt to help your company in another way.

 

SAY: Ornias/(James Turner) : (Noise) asks with hidden interest, "Does that happen often?"

 

[...]


Tl;dr I don't feel this really warrants any further action, the captain in question from his knowledge was dealing with a corporate spy, and the visitor in question was asking some shady questions. The actions taken against said visitor are a bit shaky, but from an IC standpoint I can understand, probably not the best course of action to take, but none of us are perfect.

 

I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT HIS IC ACTIONS. PLEASE REREAD MY COMPLAINT.

Me believing GIlthari Exports was the largest exporter was due to a mistake, not due to me trying to write that lore.

If he had an issue with that, he should have ahelped and asked someone to talk to me, or LOOC'd me to ask me about it.

He instead not only shut it down but used the roleplay definition of powergaming to claim that Gilthari Exports didn't exist at all and that my reason for being here was invalid.


Believing someone's a spy and investigating them: A-OK.

Deciding someone's a spy and choosing to OOCly manipulate the game world to fit your decision: Not OK.

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The situation would have been entirely different if you didnt attempt to be bigger and more important than you were.


Of course I expected a OOC link to that lore page of the company that is according to you the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti.

It is after all to prevent me from making the same mistake again in the future.


If you wouldn't have claimed that this company is the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti, I would have never had a reason to request a link to its web page (which as I said multiple times I expected to be a lore page that explains the company)


However, the outcome would be the same regardless. In the end, the link didnt have that much influence as I outlined above.

I would have still ordered you not to speak with security / research / engineering.


Yes, I can see how I might have been able to handle the "link" a bit better, but as I said the end result would have been the same.


Now, regarding your "memory loss" it seems to come and go as it suits you.

Oh, and in case you try to claim that you never said that Gilthari Exports is the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti like you did in LOOC.

I never claimed that.

 

 

When we were talking to Zelmana in LOOC, they said that "they (Gilthari Exports) are definitely not the highest exporter in Tau Ceti.

To which you responded with: "I have never said that".


I am sure that the logs can give us a definite answer and would help us resolve that "memeory loss" of yours.

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Regarding the claim that I tried to oocly end it:

That is definitly wrong.

By the time we were at the "link" I had more than enough reason to shut this down icly (as explained above) and prevent you from talking to engineering/security/research.

The link was just my final attempt to reach out to you, so you can provide me ICly with any page where they are listed as something.

You decided not to take that chance.

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Regarding the claim that I tried to oocly end it:

That is definitly wrong.

By the time we were at the "link" I had more than enough reason to shut this down icly (as explained above) and prevent you from talking to engineering/security/research.

The link was just my final attempt to reach out to you, so you can provide me ICly with any page where they are listed as something.

You decided not to take that chance.

I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT YOUR IC ACTIONS. PLEASE REREAD MY COMPLAINT.

I couldn't link it because it didn't exist. From the moment you decided that I was a corporate spy, there was nothing I could say that could change your mind. Not every large company has a wiki page, and I don't find it hard to believe that a company that only does exports wouldn't have one.

This was an OOC mistake you used to immediately try to shut down a visitor both ICly and OOCly.

'Reaching out' to me would have been LOOCing me asking me for more info. Not asking for IC information pretending the IC responses I gave over an IC channel were illegitimate.

 

Now, regarding your "memory loss" it seems to come and go as it suits you.


When we were talking to Zelmana in LOOC, they said that "they (Gilthari Exports) are definitely not the highest exporter in Tau Ceti.

To which you responded with: "I have never said that".


I am sure that the logs can give us a definite answer and would help us resolve that "memeory loss" of yours.

lol, when I said that I was referring to when Zel said that you weren't required to know about the company. i hoped that was clear at the time.

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I couldn't link it because it didn't exist. From the moment you decided that I was a corporate spy, there was nothing I could say that could change your mind. Not every large company has a wiki page, and I don't find it hard to believe that a company that only does exports wouldn't have one.

Now, as I explained quite a few times already.

It wasn't the link that made me believe you are a corporate spy.

The crew reports, your attempts at social engineering, they all did that.

Yes, by the time I got to the link, there wasnt much you could do to convince me otherwise.

You already put enough nails into the coffin yourself.


As I explained in my first post. It would have helped if didn't try to claim that you are from the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti.

It would have helped if you would have introduced yourself before I am alerted by the crew about a possibly spy.

 

This was an OOC mistake you used to immediately try to shut down a visitor both ICly and OOCly.

'Reaching out' to me would have been LOOCing me asking me for more info. Not asking for IC information pretending the IC responses I gave over an IC channel were illegitimate.

Oh, but I did inform you over LOOC that I couldnt find anything.

And I did ask you to send me a link in looc.

But you didn't.


Also, I did ahelp about that company, to see if I should know about it and if your claim that they are the biggest exporter is correct.

We both know how that ahelp ended: They are not the biggest exporter and I do not need to know about them ICly.


And to again address the notion that "I shut down your gimmick":

I only prohibited you from talking to security, research and engineering.

And I explicitly allowed you to talk to Civilian, Supply and Medical.


If I wanted to shut it down for good, I would have charged you with corporate espionage and put you in a cell in the brig until transfer.

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I couldn't link it because it didn't exist. From the moment you decided that I was a corporate spy, there was nothing I could say that could change your mind. Not every large company has a wiki page, and I don't find it hard to believe that a company that only does exports wouldn't have one.

Now, as I explained quite a few times already.

It wasn't the link that made me believe you are a corporate spy.

The crew reports, your attempts at social engineering, they all did that.

Yes, by the time I got to the link, there wasnt much you could do to convince me otherwise.

You already put enough nails into the coffin yourself.

As I explained in my first post. It would have helped if didn't try to claim that you are from the biggest exporter of Tau Ceti.

It would have helped if you would have introduced yourself before I am alerted by the crew about a possibly spy.


[...]


Also, I did ahelp about that company, to see if I should know about it and if your claim that they are the biggest exporter is correct.

We both know how that ahelp ended: They are not the biggest exporter and I do not need to know about them ICly.

THAT'S NOT THE TOPIC OF THIS COMPLAINT. I don't know how many times I need to say this before you read it. You are allowed to think I'm a corporate spy, you're allowed to never have heard of it; I was using this to say that I couldn't have changed your mind because you chose to claim that the company didn't exist at all, rather than you'd simply never heard of it. That's what this complaint is about.

 

And to again address the notion that "I shut down your gimmick":

I only prohibited you from talking to security, research and engineering.

And I explicitly allowed you to talk to Civilian, Supply and Medical.

You didn't necessarily shut down the gimmick.

You shut down the character.

What's worse than invalidating someones attempts for the shift is invalidating their character based of something you have no right to choose - the existence of the company my character works for.


But, the shining gemstone:

Oh, but I did inform you over LOOC that I couldnt find anything.

And I did ask you to send me a link in looc.

But you didn't.

I didn't see this. I'll check my logs later in the round to see when and how this was said, but I definitely would have explained my stance if I'd seen this, which may well have avoided a lot of trouble with this.


Nevertheless, I still stand by my point; it's not the right of players to invalidate other peoples characters. If an antag comes on-station claiming to work for "Windeshi XenoArchitectural Designers", then you can't say "I've looked it up, and it doesn't exist!", because that immediately just invalidates a part of their characters lore for no reason. The only error I made here was the perfectly legitimate mistake of assuming that the one Tau Ceti Exporter mentioned anywhere was the leading one. Ahelp and tell staff that I'm saying something untrue and they'll speak with me. Don't try to force it ICly. This was an OOC matter.

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He made an IC excuse to you because he thought you were a corporate spy. We have no lore on the faction, and it's 100% believable his character knows as a Captain that said company does not exist, especially as the 'largest exporter' (which NanoTrasen most definitely is, at least of phoron).


Hi, I'm Xander, and how am I involved? I have also Captained during one of these visits, and after conferring with my own Heads of Staff when he asked for **access** into departments to explore them and speak with personnel, we decided to deny his request - and proceeded to monitor him because I received reports from employees that he was asking them questions. Internal Affairs was permitted, if they wanted, to give him a brief tour of the facility in order to facilitate a closer monitoring of him, whether this ended up occurring I do not know, but we encourage employees to avoid answering sensitive questions.


While we ruled out hostile corporate espionage, someone from another company outside of an explicit contract with NanoTrasen would most likely not be permitted on board to ask about our policies and safety designs, IMO, and that is how my Captain treated it to.


If you want to continue with this complaint - add me too, because this is what Captains SHOULD be doing if they suspect a spy, god damn we have two documents from the lore team on board telling us to watch out for espionage lol!

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The only error I made here was the perfectly legitimate mistake of assuming that the one Tau Ceti Exporter mentioned anywhere was the leading one. Ahelp and tell staff that I'm saying something untrue and they'll speak with me. Don't try to force it ICly. This was an OOC matter.

 

Right, I´ll quote you a thing from the Tau Ceti Wiki Page:

Tau Ceti is a system located in close proximity of Sol, and serves as the main base of operation for the megacorporation NanoTrasen

That means, if you claim that you are working for the biggest exporter in Tau Ceti, they would need to be bigger than NT.

And then, they would have a lore page.

And they would be mentioned somewhere on our "reference database" (which is a common ingame term for the wiki or the forums).


Knowing that NT is a Company that operates out of Tau Ceti is absolute basic lore knowledge. (And yes, they export things out of Tau Ceti)


As I have said many times by now: If you would have claimed its a startup, a small company or something else, then we wouldnt have that discussion.

If you try to play a char that works for a corp that is bigger than NT, then you will be dealt with like any other person that has records issues.


And again, even if you didnt claim you were from the largest exporter of Tau Ceti, you would have been prevented from speaking to engineering/research/security.

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While we ruled out hostile corporate espionage, someone from another company outside of an explicit contract with NanoTrasen would most likely not be permitted on board to ask about our policies and safety designs, IMO, and that is how my Captain treated it to.


If you want to continue with this complaint - add me too, because this is what Captains SHOULD be doing if they suspect a spy, god damn we have two documents from the lore team on board telling us to watch out for espionage lol!

I'm just going to stop responding to these until you read and repeat this very, very, very simple statement which I have made several times now. Please read it, Xander.

I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT HIS IC ACTIONS. READ MY COMPLAINT.


 

That means, if you claim that you are working for the biggest exporter in Tau Ceti, they would need to be bigger than NT.

And they would be mentioned somewhere on our "reference database" (which is a common ingame term for the wiki or the forums).

Not once does the NanoTrasen page state anything about exporting raw materials. They are a research company, who mines their own materials for internal use. And:

 

If you try to play a char that works for a corp that is bigger than NT, then you will be dealt with like any other person that has records issues.

So it's a records issue.

So it's an OOC issue.

So direct it to staff, instead of trying to force that a company doesn't exist and shut it down immediately. This was clearly an issue with (reasonable) OOC misunderstanding and you took it upon yourself to make it IC so you could completely shut down the visitors backstory.


Finally,

And again, even if you didnt claim you were from the largest exporter of Tau Ceti, you would have been prevented from speaking to engineering/research/security.

That's not the topic of this complaint. Read. What. I. Type.

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I am growing increasingly annoyed with you.

This was clearly an issue with (reasonable) OOC misunderstanding and you took it upon yourself to make it IC so you could completely shut down the visitors backstory.

YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN REGARDLESS As I said multiple times by now.

Yes, I made the huge mistake of asking you for a link to the company in a final attempt to keep your gimmick alive.

I ahelped in an attempt to keep your gimmick alive.

I asked you in looc in an attempt to keep your gimmick alive.


All of that, before I rendered my final verdict.

You didnt take any of these chances

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I am growing increasingly annoyed with you.

This was clearly an issue with (reasonable) OOC misunderstanding and you took it upon yourself to make it IC so you could completely shut down the visitors backstory.

YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN REGARDLESS As I said multiple times by now.

Yes, I made the huge mistake of asking you for a link to the company in a final attempt to keep your gimmick alive.

I ahelped in an attempt to keep your gimmick alive.

I asked you in looc in an attempt to keep your gimmick alive.


All of that, before I rendered my final verdict.

You didnt take any of these chances

 

i'd get annoyed too if i played a text-based game and i couldn't read

i know i wouldn't have been allowed on to talk to science, engineering, or security, regardless of whether the company existed or not.

i've said a hundred times i'm cool with that because it's interesting rp.


you ahelped to check if your character would have heard of it, not with intent of prolonging the gimmick.

i checked back my logs and you never once LOOC'd me to ask about it before we'd talked at length about it's existence ICly, and even then only after I looc'd you to tell you it was legitimate and telling you to stop acting as if it wasn't. this was yet another show that i was totally legitimate in my understanding it was a real company. Even when you did talk about it, you were literally arguing that it didn't - not trying to come to some understanding.


literally the only thing this complaint is about was you claiming that it didn't exist when you verified it ICly - by the link i gave you and by saying it's not on the "reference database".

you don't get to decide that. ahelp if you have an issue with someones backstory.


 

647ea43ca93c597935d6d18a0ffca944.png

 


are we clear now?


EDIT: Also, is this hasn't cleared things up, we're not going to get anywhere, and it's best to just leave it to Strudel to talk to us about.

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literally the only thing this complaint is about was you claiming that it didn't exist when you verified it ICly - by the link i gave you and by saying it's not on the "reference database".

you don't get to decide that. ahelp if you have an issue with someones backstory.


 

 

Players are not obligated to believe your backstory. Sorry. I didn't as Captain, Paul didn't as Captain. This is an IC damn issue. File an incident report and see what CCIA say.


OOCly, Arrow tried his best to validate your very strange story so he could continue to let you play out your fantasy, this did not work. You are really making a mountain out of a molehill.

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Players are not obligated to believe your backstory. Sorry. I didn't as Captain, Paul didn't as Captain. This is an IC damn issue. File an incident report and see what CCIA say.

xander, i need you to read the statement i told you to read. it will make this a lot easier, xander.

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Alright, Conclusion time. I will be speaking to both parties separately about what happened through the round, as I feel there was some conflict both ICly and OOCly.


For Arrow, I feel that there should have been less OOC reasoning for outright denying the gimmick. I feel this all could have been solved a lot quicker if they had Ahelped about the gimmick that was happening, or even contacted Jackboot or some other Lore Developer before continuing to deny the existence entirely, that way there could have been better guidance on the issue.


For Ornias, the lack of communication to command staff ICly upon them arriving, and the claims of 'Largest Exporter in Tau Ceti", I feel things were sort of skewed from the beginning, I am a huge supporter of small player-made companies to liven the universe that do not need pre-approved backgrounds before being brought upon the station. The only problem here is that this wasn't a 'small' player made company, this was 'the largest exporter in Tau Ceti' which is something that would DEFINITELY need lore approval.


As for now, I will be closing this complaint, and will carry out talking to both parties.

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