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[Resolved] Player Complaint - ParadoxSpace/moondancerpony


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BYOND Key: Kaedwuff

Game ID: bTM-dKsI

Player Byond Key: Paradox Space + moondancerpony

Staff involved: Don't recall the staff member's name

Reason for complaint: So, I want to preface this by saying that it's very interesting that someone, apparently Alberyk, added some alchemy/secret recipe stuff to the game. I've got no problem with having secret content in the game, it's kinda cool to know there's content you have to discover through trial and error.


I don't think adding what is basically magical alchemy was the right choice, though, because of the events of this round. This would have been an IR rather than a player complaints complaint, except I was informed I am not allowed to file those as an AI character, so here we are.


The summary of this complaint is longwinded, but I'll try to be to the point. ParadoxSpace, either being an IPC or the unathi researcher that was working with said IPC (ResearchBuddy ##somenumber) had apparently discovered some of these secret alchemy recipes, and the two of them proceeded to spend the round dressing up priests instead of scientists in a laboratory setting, with such stunningly logical behaviors one could expect anyone to find in robotic employees of a major research corporation as:


-Declaring loudly and angrily that alchemy and magic was real, and they found it out from reading an ancient scroll or text of some sort, and being overtly hostile to anyone who tried to argue otherwise.

-Displaying the results of their 'alchemy' to anyone they could find to show it off to in an attempt to prove the validity of their alchemy.

-Breaking cameras in their own lab to prevent the AI from monitoring their increasingly unstable (from the IC perspective of people who aren't blindly accepting their 'alchemy is real' pitch) behavior.

-Refusing to explain to their own Research Director what the fucks they were doing in their department, claiming that they held a monopoly on the creation of products created in Nanotrasen's research department and would 'only share the product, not the process' with them.

-Making prayers and offerings to some made up (IPC?) god that doesn't exist in the lore as far as I can see.

-Managing to create a phoron gas leak within their department

-Giving their scientists (an IPC and a female unathi) skills as needed to do things like hunt carp so they could gather carpotoxin to try and find new alchemy recipes, when everyone was too busy to with crossfire stuff to fetch them fish, and also shutting down the station shield to do it without consulting anyone first.

-Deliberately interfering with an attempt to move bodies the antagonists created to the transfer shuttle safely so they could rush more hurriedly gathered carp to their lab to furtively continue experimenting with it.


As the AI that round, I was uniquely privileged to watch from their actions from angles of departments they didn't even know were irritated at them, because they didn't have radio access to it. I am of the opinion that they became so singleminded in the idea about how cool it was they found the secret alchemy stuff that they thought everyone else in the round should just set aside their own in-round problems or expectations for the narrative we're running to facilitate their desire to experiment and find more alchemy recipes. I'm fairly certain had it not been a Crossfire round, the RD would have ended up dismissing them from the department, as they were becoming quite fed up with their antics.


I don't think the recipes need to be removed from the game, but them being there should not be an excuse to act this way in rabid pursuit of finding more in-game secrets, or to act like you are a robot wizard. They were almost self antagging this round, assuming they could ignore regulations or the chain of command just because they found some alchemy recipes and wanted to find more. People were literally dying all around them, and the only time I saw them make any kind of reaction to the events of the round was to express concern that the antags would come and interrupt their work.


Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes. I was told the issue was an IC matter, which was fine, and reasonable, but since it was a crossfire round the situation with them was not really resolved or addressed because the antagonists sucked up all the attention and the nonsense in research was pretty much forgotten.

Approximate Date/Time: 4/8/2018

Edited by Guest
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Hi, I'm ParadoxSpace. You may know me as the actor of Eri Szikki (The male Unathi), aka the Fullscale Alchemist, aka the Shark Fighter, in our latest movie Aurorastation II: The Quest For The Philosopher's Stone. Let me tear your post apart quote by quote for your viewing pleasure.

the two of them proceeded to spend the round dressing up priests instead of scientists in a laboratory setting

I wasn't dressed as a priest, I was dressed in standard tzirzi robes, which is what most Unathi wear. It's functionally the same as a labcoat. ResearchMate had worn the chaplain robes, as they grabbed those while retrieving holy water (what we believe to be an important ingredient.) Also functionally the same as a labcoat. We had received zero complaints from any crewmembers (the RD specifically) about this, only from the AI.

 

-Declaring loudly and angrily that alchemy and magic was real, and they found it out from reading an ancient scroll or text of some sort, and being overtly hostile to anyone who tried to argue otherwise.

It'd be nice if there was any sort of logs as to 'overtly hostile'. We were only any 'hostile' to the intruding computer. We like to refer to these chemicals, and the process of making them, as alchemy, for Azoth, the Elixir of Life, and the Philosopher's Stone are real-life alchemical concepts. When we said 'ancient texts' we mean ancient texts. Irl, we actually pored through ancient alchemical descriptions of Azoth, and the Philosopher's Stone, for clues as to what they could be made of.

 

-Displaying the results of their 'alchemy' to anyone they could find to show it off to in an attempt to prove the validity of their alchemy.

We showed one product, liquid light, to our Research Director, in order to prove that we weren't talking out of our asses that there were still undiscovered chemicals out there. You made the choice to be a mechanical skeptic.

 

-Breaking cameras in their own lab to prevent the AI from monitoring their increasingly unstable (from the IC perspective of people who aren't blindly accepting their 'alchemy is real' pitch) behavior.

Yes, I did multitool the focus wire on your cameras. This was onefold because you were threatening to shut down our lab because of your irrational behavior towards our research, twofold because I did not want you repeating the recipes for our alchemy on every frequency you could find. Threefold because I had already told you to vacate our lab's hologram, and you had ignored your laws and chose not to.

 

-Refusing to explain to their own Research Director what the fucks they were doing in their department, claiming that they held a monopoly on the creation of products created in Nanotrasen's research department and would 'only share the product, not the process' with them.

We explained ourselves very much, that we were discovering new alchemical goods. We did not claim we held a monopoly on anything, that was a lie you fabricated. We would indeed share the product with Dawnguard, but he must find the recipes himself. He didn't even ask for recipes, he asked for 'notes.' We then gave him a hint as to what bottled light could be made of.

 

-Making prayers and offerings to some made up (IPC?) god that doesn't exist in the lore as far as I can see.

I actually don't have any involvement in this, but you don't need to pray to something written in the lore to pray to that thing. C'mon man. You're not even trying.

 

-Managing to create a phoron gas leak within their department

This was an accident literally anyone could make (we accidentally splashed a beaker of phoron), and an accident we cleaned up very well.

 

-Giving their scientists (an IPC and a female unathi) skills as needed to do things like hunt carp so they could gather carpotoxin to try and find new alchemy recipes, when everyone was too busy to with crossfire stuff to fetch them fish, and also shutting down the station shield to do it without consulting anyone first.

I was a male unathi, for the reference. And yes, we decided not to bother Security and take up their time, so we went fishing ourselves. No injuries were withstood to anyone uninvolved. You certainly wouldn't have shut the shield down, so we did it ourselves, for the couple seconds it took.

 

-Deliberately interfering with an attempt to move bodies the antagonists created to the transfer shuttle safely so they could rush more hurriedly gathered carp to their lab to furtively continue experimenting with it.

Yeah, this was my fault. I /really/ was jonesing to get our carpotoxin back to the lab.

 

As the AI that round, I was uniquely privileged to watch from their actions from angles of departments they didn't even know were irritated at them, because they didn't have radio access to it.

Okay? This statement holds very little weight on its' own.

 

I am of the opinion that they became so singleminded in the idea about how cool it was they found the secret alchemy stuff that they thought everyone else in the round should just set aside their own in-round problems or expectations for the narrative we're running to facilitate their desire to experiment and find more alchemy recipes.

No, we were just singleminded enough to ask once for carpotoxin, and ask for carp corpses to be brought into the lab after Security fought them.

 

I'm fairly certain had it not been a Crossfire round, the RD would have ended up dismissing them from the department, as they were becoming quite fed up with their antics.

Okay, bring him in here. Let's get his word, instead of you speaking for him.

 

I don't think the recipes need to be removed from the game, but them being there should not be an excuse to act this way in rabid pursuit of finding more in-game secrets, or to act like you are a robot wizard. They were almost self antagging this round, assuming they could ignore regulations or the chain of command just because they found some alchemy recipes and wanted to find more.

We didn't ignore regulations, we ignored you. You're not above us.

 

People were literally dying all around them

Patently untrue. We suffered no losses near our lab.


In total, I find this OP full of more holes than a strainer.

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There is a lot of conjecture on your part here, and while I indeed may have made some in my complaint too, I'd like to add a few points here.


-Picking apart your behavior I listed piece by piece and treating each event as a singular event separate from everything else fails to cover the scope that your behavior was terrible throughout the entire shift. If you had just done a couple of these things there probably wouldn't have been a complaint, but you were both self-absorbed and careless on multiple occasions in pursuit of game secrets

-My behavior in that round was strictly logical and within the bounds of my laws. It is a common misconception of assumed convenience by players that AI are bound to obey all orders from crewmembers regardless of context, when in fact the letter of the law you are trying to reference is 'serve the crew to the best of your ability, with priority to those of higher rank'. Within that context trying to monitor and get explanations from two crew members who were acting unstable and behaving outside of the bounds of what was normal for their department for the safety of the rest of the crew and station equipment was perfectly within my laws, regardless of whether you thought your actions were entirely reasonable. I asked the research director for explanations of your behavior and they themselves had no idea what you were doing, which was concerning enough to require observation. You also deemed me unworthy of any attempt to create a logical explanation and reacted with hostility to my probing, which did not help your case of sanity.

-The OOC status quo that alchemy recipes are secret and need to be earned does not necessarily deserve any actual weight IC. There's no logical reason why your scientists would not explain what they had created to their head of staff beyond giving them vague riddles and hints. You didn't NEED to act like this, you could have not taken the time to show off to everyone and act like total weirdos claiming to do pseudoscience that has been considered obsolete for centuries, or created some sort of within-science plausible lie or fabrication to cover the real recipes and made it work, instead of ICly going 'we're alchemists and you gotta figure it out yourself winky face'.

-I had no particular inclination to broadcast recipes over comms, this is an assumption on your part. My primary concern was your behavior in the round, not trying to steal your special secret recipes. Had you acted like normal scientists discovering new chemicals instead of being overt alchemists, you probably would not have even shown up on my radar.

-Lack of complaints of your behavior by other people could be chalked up to apathy, and apathetic consensus does not qualify something as acceptable. "No one else complained when I murdered that person, so what is the problem?" is not a logical argument.

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Hey there, just a quick Update Flamingo will be assisting me with this complaint.


Also, so far from what I'm reading, there are two major problems I can see. Firstly, I can understand having an overbearing AI watching over your every move and complaining about what you do, I don't really agree with AI's like that, but I feel pulsing the cameras in that office was a bit over the line, I feel permission from the RD to do that may have been needed to do that, or at least even asking the RD to tell the AI to stay off your back would have fixed many of the problems. I feel a majority of this situation is a large amount of miscommunication. I am not against the IPC who was praying to some god of some sort, this wasn't really a problem ICly or OOCly, Is it not believable? Maybe, but it was something to spice up the round a bit, and again maybe a bit of communication to staff beforehand would be appreciated for things like that just to get an okay, but that's about the most of my grievances.


The one thing I am disappointed about, is a scientist going out, disabling shields, and killing Carp, this is not believable what-so-ever, I get that you wanted to get some carpotoxin for some more alchemy things, but you really shouldn't be doing this sort of thing as a Scientist, it can wait, you can get security to just go out and kill some for you another round.


I will continue to read through logs, but I felt an update of my feelings so-far would be good.


I'm welcome to any comments from you two, but please do not turn it into a back-and-forth.

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Hi, I have also had issues with this character (and that research director). They opted to play a chemist in medical. Over the hour and a half before I demoted them, they failed to make a single chemical I did not explicitly ask for-- I think I got a bottle of bicaridine, a bottle of alkysine, and a half bottle of peridaxon out of them. They let the RD into my lab, I ended up having to call the HoS for either of them to leave. And most annoyingly, they planted k'ois in my medbay without telling me (which I would have entirely forbidden).


This problem was rectified when they moved to science, so I haven't filed any kind of complaint, but I figured I'd add this in for consideration.

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Hi, I have also had issues with this character (and that research director). They opted to play a chemist in medical. Over the hour and a half before I demoted them, they failed to make a single chemical I did not explicitly ask for-- I think I got a bottle of bicaridine, a bottle of alkysine, and a half bottle of peridaxon out of them. They let the RD into my lab, I ended up having to call the HoS for either of them to leave. And most annoyingly, they planted k'ois in my medbay without telling me (which I would have entirely forbidden).


This problem was rectified when they moved to science, so I haven't filed any kind of complaint, but I figured I'd add this in for consideration.

 

This was modified, sterilized K'ois, suitable for phoron production. And 'a half bottle of peridaxon' is outright false, there was a full bottle and a half bottle because I had made 90 units. Otherwise, there were plenty chems in the fridge at the end of the day.

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I see a lot of you retroactively justifying your actions under the aegis of 'nothing went wrong so what's the problem', but the point remains that a lot of the things that you do you do without asking anyone if you're allowed to do it when you really should have. If the end of the day it doesn't really matter if you think that the koi plants weren't dangerous, or that you only managed to leave the shield down for a couple seconds while you caught a carp and no one was hurt.


It costs you nothing to ask for permission, and if it does cost you something to ask for permission because you're sure they will refuse, then maybe it's not something you should be doing under the table anyway.


Earlier on in this topic you said that you opened the shield yourselves, because you were sure I wasn't going to as the AI. You're probably right, I would not have opened the shields for you because there were dangerous carp out there and you were a scientist wearing a soft suit.


So you did it yourself anyway with mysteriously acquired Eva combat skills, making the ends justify the means. You can't just do whatever you want because it makes things marginally more convenient for you. You seem to be very self-reliant to the point of disregarding that you are roleplaying as part of a station community, pushing aside things or people that are in the way (like people trying to move bodies to the shuttle), and rarely asking for outside help if you feel you can do something yourself (even if it means acting outside of your expected job duties).


And there's also your general behavior towards the AI. I can understand why you didn't particularly feel like explaining yourself to me ICly, but rather than seek help from your RD about an AI pestering you, or even ahelping me, you modified your workstation without permission to make it harder for me to monitor you, and just filed my actions under 'not obeying my laws' when I didn't do what you wanted then spent the rest of the round ignoring me or trying to disable my holopad like I was a personal challenge against your authority.


By contrast, the conflict we had caused me to draw many other people into it. I monitored you on and off and continually reported your activities to the relevant Heads, and called security on your errant behavior at one point. The captain was informed when you went carp hunting, and the RD was alerted when you spilled phoron. As I said before, your actions went largely uncommented on by other members of the round because they were busy with crossfire, not because they were okay.

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Looking through the logs, and talking with Flim I believe I've come to a conclusion of what needs to be done.


I will be speaking with Paradox about his actions regarding disabling the shield to carphunt, as well as his actions of removing the camera view of the AI from his lab without permission or intervention of a Head of Staff. These two actions are highly uncharacteristic of what we expect of scientist ICly. The argument about the Unathi robes are a bit pointless, it is acceptable for Unathi to wear the Tzirzi Robes due to their culture, though I do not believe that the chaplain robes being worn by the IPC are very warranted, though this itself isn't very noteworthy, its just a bit nitpicky on my part, and more of an IC IR problem should it happen again.


I believe that is all the action I will take on my part, and will be contacting the parties that action will be taken against.


Closing and Locking.

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