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Complaint - Resilynn


Guest Marlon Phoenix

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

BYOND Key: Jackboot

Game ID: bT6-aZod

Player Byond Key: Resilynn

Staff involved: None

Reason for complaint:

Resilynn is abusing IR's, weaponizing them to get his way. His character, CMO Fernando Gonzalez, threatened my head of security with one immediately if he did not get his way.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? how do i ahelp an ir

Approximate Date/Time: about an hour ago


This is not making a complaint about an IR I disagree with or don't want to defend against. He is weaponizing an IR like one would weaponize staff. His character immediately demanded the Head of Security drop everything in regards to his character or he would make an IR. To me this is the exact same as demanding someone drop everything or they will ahelp - it is weaponizing staff. I should not be threatened with an IR for performing a basic line of questions. When they said they were performing live experiments on a protohuman I expressed concern that they might be covered under animal cruelty laws and backtracked after it became clear they are not. The AI was being pretty confrontational about it and arguing with the CMO but I really do not think Triaka was being egregious.

 

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I have a job, and a life, and it is incredibly mean spirited to lodge an IR about this. I do not understand what he would have wanted to happen. He was accused of a crime, briefly questioned, and then nothing came of it. And despite that, I am obligated to sit around and wait for an extended round, have a full formal interview with a CCIA agent, wait for him to give his own interview, then wait for the results.


The weaponization of an IR for a non-issue should be an OOC issue. IR's are not for petty things like this, especially when the IR is literally making my character out to be a devil woman so I can't even shrug and offer no contest. He says she committed sedition and harrassment, I mean, hello.


https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?p=97893#p97893

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Based on previous complaints of this nature - it's generally been ruled that IRs are IC complaints between characters, not their players - and unless CCIA says otherwise, are not an OOC issue.


'Their character was mean to mine!' isn't really grounds for a complaint unless you think that Resilynn is trying to bully or target you OOCly with this (I doubt it, they're nice people) but if that's what you're going for by all means. Also, CCIA do interviews on all round types, they'll just shuttle you off to the Odin.


*IC issues that are not in violation of OOC rules should be taken to the Incident Report section of the forums, to be sorted out by the Duty Officers.* - Subforum Rules

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

Xander delete your post and dont question my decisions again or ill bring this to ccia and get you fired.



^^weaponizing staff


His cmo said my hos was going to die soon, and i could easily make an ir saying he was engaging in a violent threat of mutiny that makes me feel unsafe, and word it like hes a syndicate commando... unless he did x y or z.


Another word is extortion.

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That's really not behavior that should be considered remotely acceptable as a head of staff. It's downright awful to threaten other heads of staff with an IR for doing their job and then issuing a death threat on top of that. That's definitely whitelist strip worthy, the way I see it. It's a deliberate abuse of IC authority and also a waste of CCIA's time to deal with an issue sourced around the CMO's ego.

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Xander delete your post and dont question my decisions again or ill bring this to ccia and get you fired.



^^weaponizing staff


His cmo said my hos was going to die soon, and i could easily make an ir saying he was engaging in a violent threat of mutiny that makes me feel unsafe, and word it like hes a syndicate commando... unless he did x y or z.


Another word is extortion.

 

Alright, I have a few points to make. My CMO said you were going to die soon because you 1) ran off to fight spiders while you were still in the orange on my HuD and I had not finished treating you, and 2) you ran off with an unamputated limb stump which will, eventually, get infected.


If I threatened to make an IR against you unless you, idunno, baked me a cake. Brought me money. Did my taxes. That would be extortion. I threatened to file an IR if you detained me, about you detaining me, because detaining me would have been illegal. That's not extortion, that's the reason IRs exist.

 

I have a job, and a life, and it is incredibly mean spirited to lodge an IR about this.

 

As I understand IRs, they are entirely in character. And it's true that I am playing a mean spirited character! But he is just that, a character. Fictional. Not me. Moreover, there was context. Your previous injuries, of course, which made him very skeptical of your competence, and the AI had been threatening to have me charged for murder over medical radio. So Ferny came into the conversation heated and assuming charges would be pressed.


In the end, I decided, OOCly, to file an IR because of the injunction. I felt that Fernando was, by this point, ICly justified enough, but more than that, I actually do not, OOCly, know if it's legal to file an injunction against another head of staff without the other heads of staff approving. I poured over directives one and two to figure it out, and decided to see what CCIA said. So, that's the OOC end of things. No malicious intent, just, 'huh, I don't know what will happen if I do this and it makes sense for Fernando to do'.


I consider filing IRs a lot. I think this is the third I've ever actually filed in two years of play on Aurora. I, personally, wouldn't consider that weaponizing them. All the same, I'm willing to modify my play style if I'm told I need to.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

All charges were dropped and the injunction was for you to stop arguing with the ai on command comms. It was a formal warning that lasted 10 minutes despite your best efforts to bait an arrest by continuing to argue about it.


What would you have possibly wanted to happen? You got asked questions on the command channel. I knew ic and ooc the ai was probably being dramatic but it had to be looked into.


Also, that doesnt matter about the spiders. I can make it sound like a genuine death threat and call it threat of bodily harm, on the same level you accused triaka of sedition. Then you must spend a big chunk of time dealing with that. Ofc ill drop the IR if you dont investigate me........

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The comparison of this being similiar to someone threatening to ahelp isn't really fair. That being said if your first response to questions is "I WILL GO TO CCIA" thats kind of lame. this whole interaction leaves a lot ot be desired in the way of "reasonable ways reasonable people reasonably handle things".


"hey CMO i have some concerns over what you're doin"


"Oh dont worry HoS i got this braindead protohuman to show my resident here how to perform some surgery!"


"Oh that makes sense! Are you sedating it?"


"well no im not since protohumans do not feel pain but i suppose i should since im trying to teach my resident proper procedure!"


"alrighty just checking sorry to be a bother!"


Something along those lines is what i would expect of people looking to work with their fellow command members. I do not know if those are ALL the logs of the event so i wont comment on who started swinging first, its not super relevant. I just feel like you both could have handled this a bit better IC. Also that AI should have been bwoinked/ahelped about. I do not recall an ahelp about him but its possible we might have missed it.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

Hewwo Garn, thank you for responding to the complaint.


I consider it just as egregious not because he said he would make an IR, but the method and timing that he did it. The AI was the one that originally reported "The CMO is covered in blood and experimenting on people in medbay." which, I mean, merits me asking the CMO what's up.


It was not reasonable to immediately threaten an IR, I agree. The threat came out of him before I made any mention of arrests. I was trying to ask the questions that you listed, and he was being incredibly hostile and demanding I drop everything or I'll get an IR. ANd he's worded the IR extremely dramatically, making my character out to be a devil woman just running wild across the station arresting heads of staff.


She did say she would not hesitate to destroy Fernando, because she was losing her patience and was warning him that she was going to actually detain him eventually if he did not stop threatening her for asking a line of questions.


I disagree that this is somehow less severe than threatening to ahelp if you do not do a certain thing. CCIA are still staff, and he threatened to call staff on me to punish my character if he did not get his way. Just because it is IC does not somehow make it better. I do not think it is reasonable for a fully ranked CMO to threaten a Head of Security for being concerned about experiments on a protohuman.

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[mention]simfantic[/mention] I understand this is your AI? You shouldnt be involving yourself in what the CMO is doing with a protohuman to begin with. you also do not know about IRs. They are private between the reporter and CCIA. Anything to say?

 

[08:50:34] bT6-aZod SAY: Simfantic/(I.S.A.I) : CMO Gonzales. You have several reports on your character. If anything CCIA will go to the HoS.

 

This is the specific log i am referring to


 

[08:44:21] bT6-aZod SAY: Resilynn/(Fernando Gonzales) : (Ceti Basic) Yes, I bought a protohuman.

[08:44:36] bT6-aZod SAY: Simfantic/(I.S.A.I) : That is considered slavery.

[08:44:41] bT6-aZod SAY: Resilynn/(Fernando Gonzales) : (Ceti Basic) It is not.

[08:44:48] bT6-aZod SAY: Simfantic/(I.S.A.I) : yes. Yes it is.```

[08:44:51] bT6-aZod SAY: Resilynn/(Fernando Gonzales) : (Ceti Basic) Stop talking, AI.

[08:44:55] bT6-aZod SAY: Resilynn/(Fernando Gonzales) : (Ceti Basic) Direct order

[08:45:08] bT6-aZod SAY: [REDACTED. UNINVOLED]/(Leland Steinman) : (Ceti Basic) I, for one, agree with the A.I. This seems to be highly illegal.

[08:45:24] bT6-aZod SAY: Resilynn/(Fernando Gonzales) : (Ceti Basic) then you don't know anything about the law.

[08:45:42] bT6-aZod SAY: Simfantic/(I.S.A.I) : I can not stop when you disobey human rights. The defination of slave is a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them

 

These are the logs regarding the protohuman.

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Okay, heres my side of things:


I loaded in the AI halfway through, so I hadnt seen the whole buying and shipping. I decided to do a skim of the station to make sure that nothing was happening, as I got to medical, all I see is the CMO in question covered in blood and breaking the leg of what I believed to be a human, due to the protohuman having a name and coming up in my 'database' I figured, hold on, what the hell is happened. So I proceed to question him, and he tells me that its protohuman, I sense the human still in it and I ask why he is causing pain to the protohuman, he then doesnt answer me but instead tells me to 'Stop talking that is a direct order' so I take it to the HoS who then questions the CMO, and at every chance as stated above, seems to be dodging the question, or outright refusing to answer it. During this time, he threatened to reset me because I questioned him. This is when the HoS came in and told me I couldnt talk about the subject anymore, so I complied until the CMO threatened over the radio that he would file an IR report, because it is 'illegal' to detain him, so i notified the CMO that it is infact not illegal to detain him if security thinks he has done something wrong. This is when I told them of the several reports, which I thought was public, and I apologize for bringing that up, and that CCIA will likely conduct and investigation on the HoS side.

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Okay, heres my side of things:


I loaded in the AI halfway through, so I hadnt seen the whole buying and shipping. I decided to do a skim of the station to make sure that nothing was happening, as I got to medical, all I see is the CMO in question covered in blood and breaking the leg of what I believed to be a human, due to the protohuman having a name and coming up in my 'database' I figured, hold on, what the hell is happened. So I proceed to question him, and he tells me that its protohuman, I sense the human still in it and I ask why he is causing pain to the protohuman, he then doesnt answer me but instead tells me to 'Stop talking that is a direct order' so I take it to the HoS who then questions the CMO, and at every chance as stated above, seems to be dodging the question, or outright refusing to answer it. During this time, he threatened to reset me because I questioned him. This is when the HoS came in and told me I couldnt talk about the subject anymore, so I complied until the CMO threatened over the radio that he would file an IR report, because it is 'illegal' to detain him, so i notified the CMO that it is infact not illegal to detain him if security thinks he has done something wrong. This is when I told them of the several reports, which I thought was public, and I apologize for bringing that up, and that CCIA will likely conduct and investigation on the HoS side.

 

I kept answering every question. Even these logs show that. I didn't give you the order to stop talking until we'd been arguing for some time and you had accused me of assault...

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Adding my two cents, as this complaint seems to focus a bit on the purpose, perception of, and intent behind the IR:


Generally speaking, an IR can be posted if there was a serious incident or disagreement that could not be resolved in the round, either due to the round ending before that can happen, or because security or the station's chain of command are unable to effectively address the issue (say, perhaps, because they are involved). In this case, the sentence in the incident report that indicates the issue is this:


 

As I continued to defend myself' date=' she said I was no longer permitted to speak as she was filing an injunction against me.[/quote']

 


As Resilynn wrote there and also earlier in this complaint, Gonzales believed that Triaka was prepared to illegally serve an injunction to him. Because there was apparently no Captain or IAA involved to mediate, and no Command vote was held to make a Captain level decision to authorize one Head placing an injunction on another, Gonzales believed Triaka to be in error, and filed the incident report along with the context surrounding the issue as he interpreted it.


This is a valid reason to submit a report: there is a regulatory/authorization issue at the center of a disagreement between managers, and a loyalty-implanted member of command potentially exceeding their authority. Both of these things are things Central Command takes interest in. Jackboot has actually submitted IRs for similar scenarios in the past, including one on one of my characters. In that case, my character was reported for refusing an order, with the belief that JB's command character did not have the authority to give it. That case was also considered valid, even though the order was eventually complied with.


 

The weaponization of an IR for a non-issue should be an OOC issue. IR's are not for petty things like this, especially when the IR is literally making my character out to be a devil woman so I can't even shrug and offer no contest.

 


I agree that IRs should not be submitted for petty things. However what is or is not petty is determined by the CCIA team and their modmin liaisons. If this complaint hadn't popped up, we likely would have gone ahead and processed this one for the reasons in the previous paragraph. Depending on the outcome of the complaint, we might still do that. We are attempting to move away from IRs that seem like a purely IC dislike of someone, or something that security or command could have definitively resolved. While you don't believe that there is an issue to resolve as "nothing came" of the trading threats, they were sufficient for a character to raise questions about your character's competency and understanding of regulations, and to provide examples of why.


 

I have a job, and a life, and it is incredibly mean spirited to lodge an IR about this. I do not understand what he would have wanted to happen. He was accused of a crime, briefly questioned, and then nothing came of it. And despite that, I am obligated to sit around and wait for an extended round, have a full formal interview with a CCIA agent, wait for him to give his own interview, then wait for the results.

 


For clarity's sake, you do not need to wait for an extended round. In the worst case scenario, an agent has picked someone up for an Odin interview at the 2:00 mark during an antag round. It is not how I would recommend scheduling one, but it worked for them that time.


You are also not obligated to show up to these as a player, which is one key difference between IRs and Player Complaints. If you do not have the interest in having your character defend herself, or don't believe that the issue is important enough to make time for, you may have her decline to interview. It does reflect poorly on a character who does that, as an IC consequence for an IC decision, and I think it should. You are not necessarily busier than anyone you have reported in an IR of your own. The modmins who review logs, notes and warnings for antag and OOC issues, the staff member(s) doing the interviews, the players of (usually) everyone named in the report, and myself are all putting in their time as well, and have their own lives and jobs. But if you really don't want to, then don't. At the end of the day, you're not going to get a warning for it unless whatever happened is deemed a serious OOC issue, and you're not going to get a character fired unless they murdered someone, or did something otherwise as serious or unbelievable.


Fernando the character is a complete jerk (he, by comparison, has had five IRs reporting him as an offender since March) but his actions should not automatically indicate Resilynn being "incredibly mean-spirited" as a player. Gonzales didn't like what your character did or threatened to do, had a reason to report it to Central, and did. How he chose to report it (in a manner you consider to be demonizing) will not matter to the agent character conducting an investigation. We look for objective misconduct on all sides of an incident, and will act on that misconduct, not based on whoever wrote the report getting some first word in.


I think it is a serious thing, to see an IC report and to immediately accuse the reporting player of maliciously using the server's staff against you. As far as my opinion there is concerned, I don't think that has been illustrated yet, by either Resilynn's general behavior as a player, or their history of posts in these subforums.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

"Violation of Injunction - Injunctions can be filed for lots of different things, such as a ban on weapons carrying, or the above radio ban. They can be applied by the Head of Security, Captain, or equivalent. If they break the law in some other way, apply that sentence too. "


There are no regulations or citations anywhere about an injunction requiring a unanimous command level vote. I checked the regulations page to verify this before applying it because I wanted to make sure I was following the law. If this captain requirement being lacking is an oversight, then it should be addressed. There were no other legal means to make him stop continuing the bickering on the command channel with the AI. I would dismiss the IR and allow IC consequence to happen, but his IR says my character committed sedition. This is false and not under regs, so I'm obligated to take an interview to clear that up.


"This includes attempting to make separate areas of the ship into "Nations", arresting a head of staff without cause, or generally conspiring against the chain of command."


fernando hardly uncovered a grand conspiracy in having to face an injunction ordering him to stop arguing on command comms with the AI. It is just blowing my mind.


Having a ghost regulation cited at me and having an IR dramatically claiming my character is a rebellious, seditious devil woman because you recieved an IR to stop arguing with an AI for the last 10 minutes of the round after repeatedly threatening to call CCIA before the injunction even happened, is, to me, mean spirited. I took steps to ahelp for clarification during the incident, and checked regulations to see that I was justified, and still they are choosing to lodge a dramatic complaint that I cannot dismiss without pleading no contest to accusations of sedition.


If I have to accept the fact you can lodge such IR's willy nilly and wax dramatically about another command member committing acts of sedition because they filed an injunction on me for 10 minutes, then I am very disappointed. The last IR I recieved I complained about but I still accepted it because while I found disagreement in its merits, I still accepted that it was a reasonable thing to file an IR about against my character. The player of my last IR did not attempt to coerce my character into doing something under threat of filing it.


This is not one of those. Resilynn used IR's as a tool let them threaten to call CCIA on me if they do not get their way IC'ly.


What stops me from making a dramatic IR claiming his threat against Triaka has made her fear for her life, and mark down that Fernando attempted mutiny? There are dozens of situations in which I can have any character brought under investigation by fluffing up my IR's with dramatic monologues about their exaggerated crimes, and CCIA is obligated to investigate, spending a healthy chunk of their time, the accused's time, witnesses' time, etc.

Edited by Marlon Phoenix
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Guest Marlon Phoenix

I kept answering every question. Even these logs show that. I didn't give you the order to stop talking until we'd been arguing for some time and you had accused me of assault...

 

Immediately when you said it was a protohuman, the assault charges downgraded to animal abuse. When you finally said the protohuman was braindead, the last charge, animal abuse, was dropped. The issue was then entirely resolved. I then gave the same order to the AI saying as such and demanding they stop talking. They complied. They asked once if they could talk when you kept going on, but I ignored them, and they stayed quiet. You kept going off until you got the injunction, then KEPT going off until Triaka changed the subject for you.


The AI was very dramatic, and they thought you committed a crime and they do not usually have to listen to you tell them to hide your crimes. In this case your crime didn't exist.


The AI did keep trying to argue that technically this and that was still meaning you were a criminal. That was another reason I ordered it to stop talking. By that point you were in the clear and the whole matter was settled because the AI was shut down on the issue, but you kept baiting and baiting, and then filed an IR when you got what amounts to a formal warning about it. You had the only copy of the injunction, and it didn't go into any notes. It was a formal warning in the last 10 minutes of the round.

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Originally I wasn't going to touch this complaint but I feel I should place my stance on here. Keep in mind none of this is a verdict, as I consider both [mention]Resilynn[/mention] and [mention]Senpai Jackboot[/mention] as my friends.


Overall, I do not feel the threat of an incident report to really be weaponizing staff. The threat of reporting a command member to a higher in-character authority is by no means weaponizing staff. The incident reports are handled by the agent themselves in tandem with the setting.


There's a bit of inaccuracy cited here as I know for a fact CCIA are considerate and make special considerations for people. You don't have to wait around for voted extended nor do these interviews last an entire round, I'd say at around an hour as worst case scenario which is from joining the round to the conclusion.


Something to note is that Jackboot has filed a good number of incident reports and has even just filed one against [mention]Resilynn[/mention] while this complaint is up.


I don't really feel like this is an issue. If my character felt they were being improperly handled, I'd threaten raising it up the chain, which in some contexts may be an incident report.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

The IR itself is not being complained about, but him using an IR to coerce my character and retaliate against punishment. If that's allowed, then thats fine.

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Overall, I do not feel the threat of an incident report to really be weaponizing staff. The threat of reporting a command member to a higher in-character authority is by no means weaponizing staff. The incident reports are handled by the agent themselves in tandem with the setting.

 

This is basically how i feel about this whole issue. I am sorry JB but this issue is entirely IC save for the AI who was warned.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

I still believe IRs made this way have the potential to be weapons of coercion even if it's ic, but i hope I am wrong. If i cant persuade you then this complaint can be resolved.

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