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[Unresolved] Player Complaint - Scheveningen


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BYOND Key: BurgerBB

Game ID: (If applicable. Game ID of the round on which the incident took place. If you don't remember the exact one, then the round after or the round before works as well.)

Player Byond Key: Scheveningen (I think)

Staff involved: Various, this has going on for way too long.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes.

Approximate Date/Time: Various

Reason for complaint:


This is a big one.


Scheveningen, I find, is one of the worst people to be around when it comes to being a contributor. He has a constant aurora of negativity that cannot be ignored, as he will complain about being ignored. He insults people. He belittles them. He gets personal with people. I've discussed his behavior with others, and apparently he does not have this problem with me exclusively so this likely means it's a problem with him himself. This post will be very difficult to make given how most of the posts he made that were pointlessly rude were deleted by moderators or developers. Hopefully this still exist and are visible to mods, because I will need those posts.


Here are some of the examples of his behavior that I recall:

Baiting people by playing psychologist: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?p=98175#p98175

Projecting when called out: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?p=98224#p98224

Complaining about memes being posted on reddit, and contributing nothing to the thread: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?p=97643#p97643

Pinging me on discord in a public chat like some sort of tasty bait at 4am and complaining that I didn't see his message: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?p=97690#p97690

Going "MMMM SALTY POPCORN DRAMA": https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?p=97784#p97784

Complaining on reddit about a meme and telling LIES on the internet:


Me after reading their reddit post:


Their inability to accept the fact that someone doesn't have to take suggestions: https://i.imgur.com/BJEEuaC.png

Their inability to actually provide feedback: https://i.imgur.com/EVd3PH4.png

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

Delta's behavior is incredibly feisty at all times. I've had to block them on Discord, which I don't like to do as a member of staff. They are always really stand-off-ish. I can gather specific examples, but generally I have encountered what you've encountered too.

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Hi there! I'd like to point out you have not once in recent history attempted to contact me in DMs to settle this. Whether this is due to your perception that you think I hate you or something, it doesn't matter, because it looks like to me you don't respect me enough to contact me directly to settle this issue.


I'm fully capable of discussing these nuances in a public complaint, though, I really think we could've saved ourselves a lot of time and effort due to the nature of complaints. So, let's start.

 

Scheveningen, I find, is one of the worst people to be around when it comes to being a contributor.

 

I'm not proud of being abrasive, but I have tried being nice to you far before this ever became an issue where I've become a critic of you. When certain individuals choose to act in a way that's unbecoming and hostile towards other community members for needless purposes, however, I do not personally hesitate to roast people over the same fire that the aforementioned individuals try to burn other people with. I wouldn't do this if people got along in the first place. If you want me to stop then all you need to do is ask.


But, before we get to that, do you see this as a detail you should never consider personally as an individual? Is there no logic to the following statement?:

It's frankly inconsiderate to the people you debate with when you recuse yourself with comments like "Stop taking it seriously, it wasn't meant for you to take it seriously" when it is such obviously set bait that you hope for people to bite. You then use this reaction when you suddenly get all serious to comment about how you were initially right in your supposed 'shitposting'. What did you expect? People to play nice around reactionary BS? Jesus. This is a poor form of seeking attention and you need to take responsibility for yourself on this, Burger. This is hardly an adult thing to do.

Can you honestly tell me you don't do the above?

 

I've discussed his behavior with others, and apparently he does not have this problem with me exclusively so this likely means it's a problem with him himself.

 

They are more than welcome to post here over issues that are as-of-now unresolved.

 

He insults people. He belittles them. He gets personal with people.

 

I get abrasive and roast people over a fire if they're the kind of person that also does the same to people, yes. I do not try to make a rule out of outright insulting them directly without providing actual valid points in consideration to what they've done and how they treat other people. I will note that this isn't always true based on the situation but I make a more consistent attempt to understand people first before I break people and their actions down. You do the same (as displayed with the chemical shenanigans between you and Kaed recently), so either we're both wrong or neither of us are strictly wrong. Possibly in-between.

 

This post will be very difficult to make given how most of the posts he made that were pointlessly rude were deleted by moderators or developers. Hopefully this still exist and are visible to mods, because I will need those posts.

 

From what I recall I've no idea if I've had a single post deleted by an administrator recently. Edited, probably, such as one of the threads in which the both of us vehemently disagreed on the specifics of features you were intending on implementing and your intent on doing so. Then there was a second thread in which I pointed out your reddit participation was leading to overarching silliness and potentially creating more problems than the community needed.


Again, I don't think you can talk about rudeness when you're more than capable of adopting a tone that is extremely defensive in the face of criticism. We're both guilty of this, that much I'm willing to admit.


If there are any posts that were edited or deleted, the mods can post them and I'll own up to what was said in them and take whatever needs to be said in stride.

 

Baiting people by playing psychologist: viewtopic.php?p=98175#p98175

 

Not apologizing for my own testimony in that thread. You and Coalf were both continuing banter that eventually got out of hand and upset you enough to issue a staff complaint over it. You both kept striking at each other with your wits and you personally insisted you had nothing to do with it, I provided a statement that said otherwise based on my own experience with your attitude.

 

Projecting when called out: viewtopic.php?p=98224#p98224

 

Skull pointed out the unfortunate irony that I was indeed going too far than what I was actually supposed to be in the thread for, to point out only that you were more than capable of creating your fair share of the problems in a not-so-recent saga of the hot steamy Burger x Coalf tsundere manga. And I agree with his assessment, I went too far and I think I got a warning over it. Taking that in stride since I've already been warned for it, which is a degree of forum discipline. Moving on.

 

Complaining about memes being posted on reddit, and contributing nothing to the thread: viewtopic.php?p=97643#p97643

 

I agree that I was harsh here but it was to drive a point home. I do not believe I was contributing nothing to the thread as I remained on-topic and still discussing your personal conduct as a contributor as an inherent issue. You may choose to ignore it or take it in stride.

 

Going "MMMM SALTY POPCORN DRAMA": viewtopic.php?p=97784#p97784

 

You went for the throat because of Kaed being opinionated as he usually does. You're now blasted because someone other than Kaed shot back. Why do you expect people not to respond when you act so disrespectful?

 

Complaining on reddit about a meme and telling LIES on the internet: https://www.reddit.com/r/SS13/comments/ ... m/dzk3fqf/

Me after reading their reddit post:

 

The statement I mentioned is now surprisingly deleted, as soon as I went to check it. I don't have a screenshot but it's effectively gone now. Shame, that.


That Youtube link has nothing to do with the post.

 

Their inability to accept the fact that someone doesn't have to take suggestions: https://i.imgur.com/BJEEuaC.png

 

The absolute state of BurgerBB being unable to take feedback because he doesn't want it.

 

Their inability to actually provide feedback: https://i.imgur.com/EVd3PH4.png

 

No context image.


My turn to go for the throat. Taken from Lohikar's metaclub coder server:

 

f04d3a4d1b750936c07dd15145a77b2a.png.

IMG_20180525_172206.png.


Mind who you shit-talk. It is appalling how you can talk about respect while you call me disabled where I cannot immediately call you out for it. It's ridiculous.

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>Post Complaint thread

>Scheveningen DMs me asking to message him instead

>Submit and say he's right

>He says he'll cut the bullshit

>I say I'll cut the bullshit

>Issue resolved.

>Immediately breaks the deal and says that he's not sure that I was trying to be reasonable in the first place.

>Ignore what he said as much as I could because I want to keep the deal.

>Go to post in the thread saying it's been resolved, and close it

>See Scheveningen's post

>Cry myself to fucking sleep


https://i.imgur.com/mRcB40i.png


Time to write up a paragraph

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I posted my response before talking to you. I added the last two images to my initial response mid-typing it up as someone already sent them to me, which I then took to you in DMs to discuss.


Let's do the math! I posted my response around 6:28-6:29EST-PM. Two minutes later I sent you the initial image. Last message at 6:37EST-PM. There's your chronology.


But sure, I guess everything I said meant nothing to you, especially considering how you didn't get the chronology right and acted like I lied to you.

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Hi there! I'd like to point out you have not once in recent history attempted to contact me in DMs to settle this. Whether this is due to your perception that you think I hate you or something, it doesn't matter, because it looks like to me you don't respect me enough to contact me directly to settle this issue.

 

Given your behavior and how you deal with people regarding conversations, I thought that it would be better for everyone if there was some sort of moderation between us so it doesn't turn into a private shitflinging fest. It didn't turn into that when you messaged me, but it was just frankly insulting.

 

I'm not proud of being abrasive, but I have tried being nice to you far before this ever became an issue where I've become a critic of you. When certain individuals choose to act in a way that's unbecoming and hostile towards other community members for needless purposes, however, I do not personally hesitate to roast people over the same fire that the aforementioned individuals try to burn other people with. I wouldn't do this if people got along in the first place. If you want me to stop then all you need to do is ask.

 

See the beauty of this is that this is going to keep happening. I'm nice to people unless they're not worth my time dealing with. I'm never the first to provoke, however of course I'm not bragging about that because the best option would be for me not to feed in at all.


What's happening is the following:

Person 1: Wow person 1 you've really done it with this shitty PR!

Person 2: Go away, faggot.

Person 3: wow person 2 you're so rude im going to treat you like you treat others


This makes 0 sense. You're white knighting for others for no logical reason and you're acting surprised when I point the flamethrower to you.

 

Again, I don't think you can talk about rudeness when you're more than capable of adopting a tone that is extremely defensive in the face of criticism. We're both guilty of this, that much I'm willing to admit.

 

You're mistaking constructive criticism for being a moron and I think that's a serious problem on your part. If someone has absolutely nothing to contribute to the thread, then I'm going to ignore them. I'm fine with criticism, that's why I made the threads, however there is a point when criticism becomes someone just being dumb. For example; https://i.imgur.com/EVd3PH4.png


This isn't constructive criticism. This doesn't help me in any way so don't get shocked if I ignore you. This is just saying "I DON'T LIKE THIS." and doesn't help me. It just tells me that you don't like it, which honesty doesn't matter to me. because spoiler alert: People's opinions don't matter as much as they think they do. I'm not going to remove something if you simply say you don't like it. I can work with you, but last time I made tweaks based on the very limited feedback of people saying "I DON'T LIKE THIS, THIS IS BAD" you bitched at me for making changes, as seen here: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?p=97643#p97643

 

The statement I mentioned is now surprisingly deleted, as soon as I went to check it. I don't have a screenshot but it's effectively gone now. Shame, that.

 

Because it never existed. Don't you dare hint that I deleted it. If I deleted it, it would be logged in discord.

 

The absolute state of BurgerBB being unable to take feedback because he doesn't want it.

 

Full Context: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4790


Saying "ADD X" isn't feedback, it's just telling me to add more things that are unrelated to the PR itself! It doesn't tell me anything useful regarding the rest of the PR. As LordFowl said, it's a bugfix PR.

And me making a joke about this somehow means I'm unable to make feedback. This is absolute insanity.

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Given your behavior and how you deal with people regarding conversations, I thought that it would be better for everyone if there was some sort of moderation between us so it doesn't turn into a private shitflinging fest. It didn't turn into that when you messaged me, but it was just frankly insulting.

 

If you expect me to think this situation is entirely all my fault and not shared childishness on both our parts then we're back to square one where we started.

 

See the beauty of this is that this is going to keep happening. I'm nice to people unless they're not worth my time dealing with. I'm never the first to provoke, however of course I'm not bragging about that because the best option would be for me not to feed in at all.


What's happening is the following:

Person 1: Wow person 1 you've really done it with this shitty PR!

Person 2: Go away, faggot.

Person 3: wow person 2 you're so rude im going to treat you like you treat others


This makes 0 sense. You're white knighting for others for no logical reason and you're acting surprised when I point the flamethrower to you.

So you honestly think person 2 is doing nothing wrong with their response there? It's almost no better than person 1.


You did the same by calling me a downie. We're both hypocrites at this point but I'm waiting on you to admit that you've had your share of spewing vitriol. You're applying for coder alongside this? That's seriously unprofessional, if this is how you choose to treat people you see as "morons."

 

You're mistaking constructive criticism for being a moron and I think that's a serious problem on your part. If someone has absolutely nothing to contribute to the thread, then I'm going to ignore them. I'm fine with criticism, that's why I made the threads, however there is a point when criticism becomes someone just being dumb. For example; https://i.imgur.com/EVd3PH4.png


This isn't constructive criticism. This doesn't help me in any way so don't get shocked if I ignore you. This is just saying "I DON'T LIKE THIS." and doesn't help me. It just tells me that you don't like it, which honesty doesn't matter to me. because spoiler alert: People's opinions don't matter as much as they think they do. I'm not going to remove something if you simply say you don't like it. I can work with you, but last time I made tweaks based on the very limited feedback of people saying "I DON'T LIKE THIS, THIS IS BAD" you bitched at me for making changes, as seen here: viewtopic.php?p=97643#p97643

 

I agree and I made a mistake in regards to the first image. I will endeavor to better explain my reasoning for any distaste for features being presented.


Do not agree with your point regarding the linked thread. I believe you are arrogant and abrasive and you're super unpredictable in terms of how you categorize people in terms of intelligence and it seems especially insidious that you go out of your way to slander me and call me disabled in a place that I was not, until recently, in the chat for. It is frankly more insulting to call someone disabled because they disagree with you and how you conduct yourself. It is petty and mean-spirited as fuck. You're literally insane if you think you can righteously talk about constructive criticism and then call me a downie behind my back on a discord with 30 or so other members. When I spoke with you on discord you were barely apologetic about it at all.

 

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I genuinely do not care for how you conduct yourself, you are toxic as fuck. If there's anyone else that needs to cease, it's you too. You've proven you've had equivalent amounts of problems controlling yourself and acting like an adult. I'm willing to accept responsibility as soon as you do. I will wait for an admin to look over this and provide their thoughts.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

>Post Complaint thread

>Scheveningen DMs me asking to message him instead

>Submit and say he's right

>He says he'll cut the bullshit

>I say I'll cut the bullshit

>Issue resolved.

>Immediately breaks the deal and says that he's not sure that I was trying to be reasonable in the first place.

>Ignore what he said as much as I could because I want to keep the deal.

>Go to post in the thread saying it's been resolved, and close it

>See Scheveningen's post

>Cry myself to fucking sleep


https://i.imgur.com/mRcB40i.png


Time to write up a paragraph

 

Have you tried blocking Delta?

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>Post Complaint thread

>Scheveningen DMs me asking to message him instead

>Submit and say he's right

>He says he'll cut the bullshit

>I say I'll cut the bullshit

>Issue resolved.

>Immediately breaks the deal and says that he's not sure that I was trying to be reasonable in the first place.

>Ignore what he said as much as I could because I want to keep the deal.

>Go to post in the thread saying it's been resolved, and close it

>See Scheveningen's post

>Cry myself to fucking sleep


https://i.imgur.com/mRcB40i.png


Time to write up a paragraph

 

Have you tried blocking Delta?

 

This is the first time he's really ever contacted me on discord. Everything else was on github or on the forums.

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I gave this a lot of thought and you're right. I have been ragging you way too hard for your decisions/mistakes without treating you as just about everyone should ideally be treated, regardless of whatever drama anyone cooks up. It shouldn't be up to me to be so critical of other people. It doesn't really help anybody and it derails any kind of civility down to hell, whether I 'started it' or not, it is a significant problem with me that I start shit and blow it up to be even worse. The complaint is not about you, it's about me, so I'll respect that. It was me trying to flip it on you that is wrong, whether it's you that starts an argument or not, it doesn't matter.


I have not been intending to harass you and I apologize if it got to the point where you think it was, I can absolutely see how my behavior caused a lot of stress for you. Even if there are things you do that I think aren't good for the server I shouldn't say anything if I have nothing nice to say. I will work to tone down my feisty nature and I will control myself, if I do not, feel free to open another complaint because at that point I won't have an excuse and I'll accept a ban for whatever the deciding admin thinks is best. If my word means nothing to you then, well, sorry. I will endeavor to make changes and you're welcome to monitor me closely.

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Do you want to drop this now that mutual understanding is made?

 

Sure. If things happen again then I will point to this.

 

Yeah, feel free to contact me personally to hash out the details on how to proceed if an issue pops up again.


Going to lock and archive.

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No, that's not the reason.


As soon as this complaint was made in the first place, the dude's behavior improved significantly to the point where they were they were more behaved than the average person. They were honestly the most well-behaved users that would actually leave feedback and behave like any adult would, but as soon as this complaint was closed they were misbehaving again not only to me but towards other members of the community, like jackboot. The argument with jackboot was just fucking appalling that revealed so much about the situation at hand. What I'm saying is probably borderline flaming and ad hominem, but I strongly believe they're the type of person who enjoys provoking people. They're adamantly proud of the fact that they have a psych major, even going as so far to mention it during our initial agreement when they attempted to cause provocaution when the issue was already solved.

 

FK2PW1c.png

 

They complained over a post I made on reddit, as seen here:

, and I agreed not to make posts like that anymore towards him. They make the exact same joke again, as seen here, https://www.reddit.com/r/SS13/comments/8olw9q/the_absolute_state_of_aurorastation_suggestion/.


The joke itself did not offend me, the thing that offended me is that they did the very thing that caused them to get incredibly upset and go on their march of justice combined with that just fucking awful argument they had with jackboot. The deal is broken, so now the complaint is is being reopened.

Edited by Guest
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Aren't you the hypocrite for getting offended over it, then? Among the many things you could choose to claim that I'm outright targeting/harassing you for, you took an incredibly obvious joke as your example that I'm harassing you.


Our deal did not outright bar me or you from making jokes over reddit or the discord. You chose to take a joke seriously and get offended about it and that is wrong on your part.

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aren't you the hypocrite for getting offended over it, then? among the many things you could choose to claim that I'm outright targeting/harassing you for, you took an incredibly obvious joke as your example that I'm harassing you.

 

Harassment was never mentioned once in this complaint nor it was implied. Your issue doesn't seem to be with me, but with other people as a whole.

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Burger, I will put it this way. I have plenty of friends on this server and I'm incredibly respectful to them. I value their criticism and their opinions and I would not choose to outright insult a friend of mine nor attempt to offend them. I've had disagreements with Jackboot, I've had disagreements with you, and I'm sure there are some others I haven't mentioned. I often seem to clash with people who either conduct themselves in an abrasive way or they simply express themselves in a way that I fundamentally disagree with myself, but a lot of people operate on this same principle too and clash with others for the same reason. As of recent I don't think I've 'clashed' with you to such an extent that would be punishable.


I'd honestly argue you broke this covenant between us first, because the jokes I made both on reddit and on the discord were not phrased to directly attack you or offend you. You chose to take issue with it in spite of our rather adult discussion we had before, you decided to call it off to undermine me and insult me. Couldn't it be argued you weren't adult enough to keep the agreement up to prevent one another from directly sniping the other? Why should I change how I conduct myself if you don't? I'm hardly harming you by being here.


I don't believe I have an issue exclusive with you. You have an issue exclusive with me and anyone else that chooses to conduct themselves in a way you don't like. You're obviously very irritable and you make mountains out of molehill-sized issues in conversation. All it took was a reddit meme that transitioned over to discord phrased in a way that could not reasonably be taken in any other way than a joke to set you off. Is the conversation we had very recently evidence that I have a problem with you, or is it evidence you're trying to find a problem with me?


I honestly don't get you, Burger, and I don't really care to at this point either. If you valued reconciliation/clarification of what I said you would've taken it to DMs to clarify the issue. You've stated before that you really don't care about clearing the air about this sort of thing, though. You don't want to be an adult about this, if you did you wouldn't have even taken offense to a simple joke I made. You chose to be thin-skinned over a referential joke I made that I assumed you would've gotten and laughed off, but you took it as a personal attack on your character. I'm not going to dispute whether you have a sense of humor or not but it seems like you're blowing this way of proportion. Among the many things I've said it's pretty strange you take issue to this instance.


If you just want me to shut up and never say anything then that's not something I'm going to oblige. You're going to have to get over me being around, Burger. I'm hardly like anyone you've pulled up a request for punishment for.


Btw I already just reviewed the rest of your statement and I don't get how me being a psych major and me being proud of it or whatever has anything to do with this subject. You're targeting personal aspects of me as an individual that honestly have little to do with the complaint unless you think I'm a self-absorbed ponce just because I have entry-level college knowledge of an academic subject. I might be, but still, it has nothing to do with the complaint at large here and it's just ad hominem. Feel free to keep reaching for excuses to target me for. I'm not an amazing person by far but ad hominem isn't doing anything for the either of us. Much less for you.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

If the argument is the one I am thinking of then I agree that he was being really feisty again and unfortunately i was successfully baited. schev is nice when there are impending consequences but he gets really mean once he can start getting away with it again. very mean spirited

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If the argument is the one I am thinking of then I agree that he was being really feisty again and unfortunately i was successfully baited. schev is nice when there are impending consequences but he gets really mean once he can start getting away with it again. very mean spirited

 

Hello i was there too


Delta and i where arguing about a thing and then you and others came in to shitpost against him. Do not try to claim he was being feisty without also submitting you where being silly.

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Hello! Sorry for the very long delay on this matter. Other things got in the way.


Down to the meat and potatoes...


This complaint seemed to had been handled a long while ago, and there were some legitimate grievances that were brought up in the original complaint. This is going to be very blunt and to the point, without sugarcoating anything. If certain parties are offended at us saying that you are easily offended, the point proves itself. Anyway-


Burger has a tendency to dish out jokes and heated discussions, but often times complains or is offended when they or their projects are subject to similar jokes/discussion.

Schev has a tendency to enter discussions they are not involved in at all and input their perspective. Commentary, although needed in some places, should be handled with tact.


Advice to Burger:

Some of these will relate to the original reasons / screen-grabs on the complaint.

The Aurora Staff has an ability to moderate the community. That's usually always just the server, forums, and discord server. We step in sometimes on issues that come up about direct messages.

For the ss13 Reddit community, if you feel there is an issue, please report it via the mods on r/ss13

If you feel that people are not contributing /providing feedback to the discussion yet complain about it on Reddit or general- this isn't against the rules. People complain all the time. There is no rule that states "you can only complain if you intend to fix the problem or work to help it". If people see something they don't like, they can say it without providing alternatives.

There are a lot of issues that are best dealt with individually- between the person who you have an issue with and yourself. While we'd like you to continue reporting possible incidents, it may be best to deal with minor issues yourself.


Advice to Schev:

You should dial it back. I would highly suggest that you do not insert yourself into discussions that you're not involved with, i.e. a player complaining about something on a complaint thread. Those usually work by have person A complain about person B to staff. Person C should not insert their opinion in unless it is a general complaint and not about a specific event involving said people. It would be best practice to talk to the handling staff regarding the behavior you do not agree with instead of provide peanut gallery commentary.




And as for the reopening of the ticket, I think it was already addressed previously. The only rules that Schev may possibly be breaking is rule 2 and that they are inserting themselves into discussions in complaint threads, as well as some of their jokes being ill-placed. Are you expecting someone to be punished for joking about things? It is best advised that if you do not like their conversation that you do not converse with them. Do as jackboot has done and simply block them. While this will not completely resolve the issue, it will decrease your interactions with them. If you still believe that you are being mistreated or offended at their toxicity after doing so, that's another issue.

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