Staff Complaint - TishinaStalker

BYOND Key: Ornias

Staff BYOND Key: TishinaStalker

Game ID: bT0-bokM

Reason for complaint: During this round, a character had the flavour text 'Oddly enough she keeps little mini speakers in her hair that continually play ((

The response I got was 'Alright?', so I clarified my issue with it.

They then responded "Sounds like an IC question for you to find out and I don't see the lack of reality in this. Especially when people now-a-days already walk around with your speakers blasting their own music anyway. I'm sure by 2460 they've figured something out for smaller speakers and I wouldn't be surprised if you could clip them onto your hair when cyberpunk societs like Eridani Federation exist" and immediately closed my ticket. My issue with this is two things:

One, having my ticket closed immediately without giving me a response to ask questions or refute the presented points is not good practice at all. I had further questions on their judgement and maintained my view.

Two, I was not arguing that it was impossible to have tiny speakers playing music. That's just silly. I argued that it was not believable for our setting for someone to be wearing those when they're at work blasting an old grunge song at all times. You could say that "I wasn't clear about that", but that quickly would have been clarified if both of my tickets had not been immediately closed, shutting down any opportunity for dialogue.

I ahelped again, saying that it's a completely unbelievable prospect for someone to be blasting music from their hair at all times, especially in a service job where they're supposed to be serving people. How far would you get working for your local Denny's if you're blasting music at 85 decibels into the ears of your clients and fellow workers. You can, of course, already drape tiny lil speakers in your hair and blast them at all times now anyway, but if any of you have ever seen this occur in real life you probably live in Florida or something.

The response, "That's a real blanket statement. Either way, sounds like an IC issue. Take it up with their boss or an incident report or something then and that's that. I'm not taking action against them because this is not an OOC issue here".

And my ticket was once again immediately closed.

Again, the same issue with having my ticket closed immediately applies, as well as my stance that their actions are unbelievable, but what really screwed with me was them saying "and that's that". This was, bear in mind, the second response I'd gotten on my issue. They hadn't offered any explanation for why it was acceptable other than the technology exists in the setting. I understand that staff rulings are final, but that should not be weaponized against players. Even if it somehow is legitimate for someone to play that character, the hostility shown was really disheartening coming from a staffmember.

Evidence/logs/etc:

Additional remarks: Fundamentally, while the judgement of whether or not it is an IC issue, while important, is of less importance than the lack of desire to interact with players and explain rulings.

and I don't say that with intent to degrade either Tishina

No offense taken. You guess correctly in that the intent of the "Alright?" Was because I was not seeing the issue you were perceiving.

especially in a service job where they're supposed to be serving people. How far would you get working for your local Denny's if you're blasting music at 85 decibels into the ears of your clients and fellow workers.

Pretty far, actually. You make it sound like it's totally unrealistic for restaurants to permit their kitchen staff to listen to music on speakers. That is incredibly wrong. As someone who's worked food service for half a year at different restaurants, I've gotten pretty far cooking, doing dishes, and preparing bread for the next day while blasting a speaker. The only thing I was ever asked for anywhere was to not play music with profanity unless the restaurant's closed just in case. Noise in kitchens from work staff and cooking appliances are very often loud enough that customers being disturbed are a non-issue.

but if any of you have ever seen this occur in real life you probably live in Florida or something.

Puerto Rico, Iowa, Texas, and Illinois. As for where I had those jobs. Again, your main defense against this player was the use of blanket statements.

or refute the presented points

"That's completely unrealistic."

"Actually, that's pretty realistic. Here's why."

"*Ticket closed*"

"Wait, hold up. That's completely unrealistic."

"No it's not as I previously explained and I'm not taking action against it."

"*Ticket closed*"

I did refute your point of it being unrealistic initially. Your second ticket did nothing to change my mind and was still covered by my initial refusal on your point. Don't say I didn't refute the presented points when your second ticket didn't do much to refute mine. If I misrepresented our dialogue there, then apologies, but that's what I'm perceiving from re-reading over it.

They hadn't offered any explanation for why it was acceptable other than the technology exists in the setting

I wrote right there why I ruled it was acceptable. Technology wasn't the only thing, it could also be a cultural thing. If anything, the only thing I'm at fault of is not bringing up real food service experience to refute your point even further. Sorry if that's ultimately what you're trying to get at because I would apologize in that case.

what really screwed with me was them saying "and that's that"

I'm genuinely confused here. What really screwed with you was the fact that I used a common saying to show that I'm sticking to my ruling? Sorry, maybe I'm not seeing this part from your POV too well, but that definitely looks like a personal problem that I will explain next.

the hostility shown

Please show me where I clearly, without a doubt, used hostility? If I wanted to be hostile, then I would've said "No, fuck off" or something and if I "lacked desire to interact with players", then I would've ignored you, I wouldn't be staff in the first place, and I wouldn't even give you the time of day on this complaint. My whole job revolves around willingness to interact with players, after all. There's a difference between hostility and apathy in this case and my apathy was towards the issue, not the player reporting. I had no concern for the matter because, even though I did not explicitly state it, it's very clear that I'm saying there's no issue before initially closing your ticket, as there was nothing unrealistic about the character's flavor text.

If you mean this in reference to "and that's that", then that's a personal problem, I believe, if you assumed hostility from that as I was not being hostile at any point. Especially not there because "and that's that" is a general saying to show finality in a judgement. It doesn't have to be said with hostility.

If it's due to closing the tickets, then that's also a personal problem I would think in that you are personally assuming hostility when there is none. It is extremely common for staff in PMs to close tickets once they give a ruling on non-vital issues, such as "Can I do X?", "Hey, is this minor issue believable?", etc. This definitely fell under that second example. I gave you my ruling, I gave a clear statement saying that, that is my ruling, and that I was sticking to it. In our server rules, it says, "All staff ingame decisions are final. OOC and adminhelp aren't the place to argue about our staff's decisions." Once I gave you that ruling, I was under no obligation to further pursue a discussion on it. Normally I would have if it was a big issue that would end in someone getting banned or warned or was a serious infraction in flavortext. This was definitely not the case and it was such a minor issue that ultimately harmed no one. The player even said in OOC that they were pleased a lot of people commented and liked their choice in flavortext. Sounds to me like I made the right choice at the end of the day as it was an IC issue and definitely not an OOC issue.

In the end, the only thing I'm sorry for is for the earlier point when I cited your image. Other than that, I refuse to apologize for anything else here as I was being perfectly calm and level-headed during our brief discussion. I refuse to get into a 30 minute discussion on why having a speaker in a kitchen for food service is unrealistic, despite it being very realistic, because it's a minor issue. If you still have an issue with the player, then I did, and still do, highly suggest taking it up with their boss in-game or an incident report.

After reading your response, I see I have misread your train of thought, and I apologize for assuming your intentions. I have fallen guilty to believing all staff are cackling demons who exist to make my life hell

It's pretty clear to me now that you weren't intentionally trying to blow me off, despite how it seemed at the time. However, I still disagree with your actions and judgement, and believe that my mistake is very easily justified, as I'll explain.

One, my perception of your communication. Replying with 'Alright?' when I adminhelped appeared immediately flippant, even though it wasn't necessarily the intent. Further, in your first reply, mentioning that Eridani may have "figured out something for smaller speakers" told me that you had not exactly construed my issue, being with the believably of it being within the workplace rather than simply being able to be theoretically designed. And the statement that you "couldn't see the lack of reality" basically tells me that I need to further clarify my issue, because it clearly was not understood. The immediate closing of the ticket thereafter pretty much gave me the impression, rightly or wrongly, that because you did not immediately agree with me, that my case was not worthy of being investigated or clarified any further.

Your second reply was what I said being a 'blanket statement' irked me because, yes, it was. You cannot make a case for anything being unrealistic without making a blanket statement that it's unrealistic. No explanation of why it was an IC issue was provided this time, instead being told to make an IR or talk to their boss, before the ticket was closed. At this point, my issue that it would not be realistic for someone to be blasting loud music from their hairspeakers 24/7 has not been responded to, and that's why I felt like I was being blown off. My issue with the statement "and that's that" is that, at least in the contexts I've experienced it, it's very much issuing a decree. Without me feeling like my adminhelp had been properly addressed, I was told that I was incorrect that that there was no way to change your mind.

To clarify in conjunction to this:

They hadn't offered any explanation for why it was acceptable other than the technology exists in the setting

 

 

I wrote right there why I ruled it was acceptable. Technology wasn't the only thing, it could also be a cultural thing.

I'm afraid I don't see in your reply where you said that it was a cultural thing, and I say this without intent to be provocative. Of course, it may well be visible to others, but if the ticket had not been closed immediately after this response was given you would have been able to present this there and then in a form I understood.

In the end, the only thing I'm sorry for is for the earlier point when I cited your image. Other than that, I refuse to apologize for anything else here as I was being perfectly calm and level-headed during our brief discussion. I refuse to get into a 30 minute discussion on why having a speaker in a kitchen for food service is unrealistic, despite it being very realistic, because it's a minor issue. If you still have an issue with the player, then I did, and still do, highly suggest taking it up with their boss in-game or an incident report.

And this also. Things are not either "one response, no chance for questions" or "30 minute conversation". If I can't ask questions without you believing it will devolve into 30 minutes of arguement, then that means one of two things: either you're immediately assuming that I'm going to draw things out just to be difficult, or you can't give answers to the questions I'm providing. It would have taken me 30 seconds to have written "no, that's not what I meant, I have no issue with them playing music, but instead in the manner it's been presented" and you could have explained your stance in a manner which I could have at the very least applied contextually.

Two, I still feel that someone having speakers in their hair playing loud music at all times is not believable. I have no doubt that such technology could exist, as it does currently, but:

• This is in someones flavour text, thus, it's playing at all times. This would be like someone setting their flavour text as continually screaming: it's a thing that you have to acknowledge whenever the characteris around immediately.
• Not only that, but the mention of 'speakers' combined with playing a JSRF song gives off the impression that it's being done to recreate the character archetypes present in that game. It would be like an IPC continually having the Legend Of Zelda music playing at all times while dressed in all green: sure the technology exists, and it might be built, but it's very clearly a reference.
  
• It's continually playing the same song. At all times. Loudly. In real life, if you played the same song on repeat in your workplace, you'd be kicked in the teeth with the justice of God. This is an IC issue, I digress, but it does point towards not being utilized in a way to promote roleplay.
  
• Again, this is not something that is done in the modern day, despite the technology being available. The argument that it may be part of Eridani culture makes a certain degree of sense, although it's a universally applicable argument: we won't take action against this person for having Christmas lights draped all over him in his flavour text, it might be part of his culture. We won't take action against this person for having hair sculpted into the shape of a bird house, because the technology would exist and it might be part of their culture to have sculptures in their hair.
  
• Also, I don't mean to accuse you of anything, but did you check their character profile to see if they're Eridanian?

We're at work. You can play music from your PDA or whatever and leave it on a table, but having it blaring at all times not only means that roleplay suffers as a result. Serious scenes are no longer serious when you've got rockin' jam Birthday Cake by Cibo Matto playing over this girl dying on the floor. Even day to day tasks suffer. Think about fucking waiting in line to get to work and there's this fucking banger of a song playing loudly from the girls hair in front of you.

Quickfire Responses

Basically: Your manner suggested apathy and disinterest to the point of not wishing to your perform administration. This clearly wasn't the case, but I believe that I and many others would make a similar presumption in future from the way you presented yourself.

After reading your response, I see I have misread your train of thought, and I apologize for assuming your intentions. I have fallen guilty to believing all staff are cackling demons who exist to make my life hell

It's pretty clear to me now that you weren't intentionally trying to blow me off, despite how it seemed at the time. However, I still disagree with your actions and judgement, and believe that my mistake is very easily justified, as I'll explain.

One, my perception of your communication. Replying with 'Alright?' when I adminhelped appeared immediately flippant, even though it wasn't necessarily the intent. Further, in your first reply, mentioning that Eridani may have "figured out something for smaller speakers" told me that you had not exactly construed my issue, being with the believably of it being within the workplace rather than simply being able to be theoretically designed. And the statement that you "couldn't see the lack of reality" basically tells me that I need to further clarify my issue, because it clearly was not understood. The immediate closing of the ticket thereafter pretty much gave me the impression, rightly or wrongly, that because you did not immediately agree with me, that my case was not worthy of being investigated or clarified any further.

Your second reply was what I said being a 'blanket statement' irked me because, yes, it was. You cannot make a case for anything being unrealistic without making a blanket statement that it's unrealistic. No explanation of why it was an IC issue was provided this time, instead being told to make an IR or talk to their boss, before the ticket was closed. At this point, my issue that it would not be realistic for someone to be blasting loud music from their hairspeakers 24/7 has not been responded to, and that's why I felt like I was being blown off. My issue with the statement "and that's that" is that, at least in the contexts I've experienced it, it's very much issuing a decree. Without me feeling like my adminhelp had been properly addressed, I was told that I was incorrect that that there was no way to change your mind.

To clarify in conjunction to this:

They hadn't offered any explanation for why it was acceptable other than the technology exists in the setting

 

 

I wrote right there why I ruled it was acceptable. Technology wasn't the only thing, it could also be a cultural thing.

I'm afraid I don't see in your reply where you said that it was a cultural thing, and I say this without intent to be provocative. Of course, it may well be visible to others, but if the ticket had not been closed immediately after this response was given you would have been able to present this there and then in a form I understood.

 

In the end, the only thing I'm sorry for is for the earlier point when I cited your image. Other than that, I refuse to apologize for anything else here as I was being perfectly calm and level-headed during our brief discussion. I refuse to get into a 30 minute discussion on why having a speaker in a kitchen for food service is unrealistic, despite it being very realistic, because it's a minor issue. If you still have an issue with the player, then I did, and still do, highly suggest taking it up with their boss in-game or an incident report.

And this also. Things are not either "one response, no chance for questions" or "30 minute conversation". If I can't ask questions without you believing it will devolve into 30 minutes of arguement, then that means one of two things: either you're immediately assuming that I'm going to draw things out just to be difficult, or you can't give answers to the questions I'm providing. It would have taken me 30 seconds to have written "no, that's not what I meant, I have no issue with them playing music, but instead in the manner it's been presented" and you could have explained your stance in a manner which I could have at the very least applied contextually.

Two, I still feel that someone having speakers in their hair playing loud music at all times is not believable. I have no doubt that such technology could exist, as it does currently, but:

• This is in someones flavour text, thus, it's playing at all times. This would be like someone setting their flavour text as continually screaming: it's a thing that you have to acknowledge whenever the characteris around immediately.
• Not only that, but the mention of 'speakers' combined with playing a JSRF song gives off the impression that it's being done to recreate the character archetypes present in that game. It would be like an IPC continually having the Legend Of Zelda music playing at all times while dressed in all green: sure the technology exists, and it might be built, but it's very clearly a reference.
  
• It's continually playing the same song. At all times. Loudly. In real life, if you played the same song on repeat in your workplace, you'd be kicked in the teeth with the justice of God. This is an IC issue, I digress, but it does point towards not being utilized in a way to promote roleplay.
  
• Again, this is not something that is done in the modern day, despite the technology being available. The argument that it may be part of Eridani culture makes a certain degree of sense, although it's a universally applicable argument: we won't take action against this person for having Christmas lights draped all over him in his flavour text, it might be part of his culture. We won't take action against this person for having hair sculpted into the shape of a bird house, because the technology would exist and it might be part of their culture to have sculptures in their hair.
  
• Also, I don't mean to accuse you of anything, but did you check their character profile to see if they're Eridanian?

We're at work. You can play music from your PDA or whatever and leave it on a table, but having it blaring at all times not only means that roleplay suffers as a result. Serious scenes are no longer serious when you've got rockin' jam Birthday Cake by Cibo Matto playing over this girl dying on the floor. Even day to day tasks suffer. Think about fucking waiting in line to get to work and there's this fucking banger of a song playing loudly from the girls hair in front of you.

Quickfire Responses

You make it sound like it's totally unrealistic for restaurants to permit their kitchen staff to listen to music on speakers.

but if any of you have ever seen this occur in real life you probably live in Florida or something.

Puerto Rico, Iowa, Texas, and Illinois. As for where I had those jobs. Again, your main defense against this player was the use of blanket statements.

I refuse to get into a 30 minute discussion on why having a speaker in a kitchen for food service is unrealistic, despite it being very realistic, because it's a minor issue.

My issue was with someone playing music at all times from their hair, not playing music.

 

It is extremely common for staff in PMs to close tickets once they give a ruling on non-vital issues, such as "Can I do X?", "Hey, is this minor issue believable?", etc. This definitely fell under that second example. I gave you my ruling, I gave a clear statement saying that, that is my ruling, and that I was sticking to it. In our server rules, it says, "All staff ingame decisions are final. OOC and adminhelp aren't the place to argue about our staff's decisions." Once I gave you that ruling, I was under no obligation to further pursue a discussion on it.

But you are. If you make a judgement, it's your responsibility to justify or explain it to the player in a manner they understand. Resorting to 'All staff ingame decisions are final' in such a way feels strongly of weaponizing it to avoid explaining it. If I had been arguing my point for an extended period, then that would of course be different, but my point had not been understood yet it had been shut down.

 

Basically: Your manner suggested apathy and disinterest to the point of not wishing to your perform administration. This clearly wasn't the case, but I believe that I and many others would make a similar presumption in future from the way you presented yourself.

Hello, I am the player you are referring too. I have roleplayed turning the music down and off, the song also changes quite often.

I'm afraid I don't see in your reply where you said that it was a cultural thing, and I say this without intent to be provocative. Of course, it may well be visible to others, but if the ticket had not been closed immediately after this response was given you would have been able to present this there and then in a form I understood.

Yeah, I'll concede on that point.

If I can't ask questions without you believing it will devolve into 30 minutes of arguement, then that means one of two things

If I have the ability to just go into an ahelp and close it out in just a few messages in a way that I can make sure everything abides by the rules in the end, then I'll take it. It's nothing about you as a player and it was nothing about me not having answers.

This is in someones flavour text, thus, it's playing at all times. This would be like someone setting their flavour text as continually screaming: it's a thing that you have to acknowledge whenever the characteris around immediately.

Serious scenes are no longer serious when you've got ...

My issue was with someone playing music at all times from their hair, not playing music.

These were addressed by the player.

Not only that, but the mention of 'speakers' combined with playing a JSRF song gives off the impression that it's being done to recreate the character archetypes present in that game. It would be like an IPC continually having the Legend Of Zelda music playing at all times while dressed in all green: sure the technology exists, and it might be built, but it's very clearly a reference.

Sorry, but this is a terrible example. One of those character archetypes is just defined as a punk. The other character archetype is a straight attempt at ripping a video game character. Especially when no characters exist in JSRF that look similar to what the player's character is described as.

This is an IC issue, I digress, but it does point towards not being utilized in a way to promote roleplay.

I'd say it is, based on the player's response above.

Again, this is not something that is done in the modern day

But it is. I stated that earlier.

The argument that it may be part of Eridani culture makes a certain degree of sense, although it's a universally applicable argument: we won't take action against this person for having Christmas lights draped all over him in his flavour text, it might be part of his culture. We won't take action against this person for having hair sculpted into the shape of a bird house, because the technology would exist and it might be part of their culture to have sculptures in their hair.

This is a better example. In those cases, I don't think it would be reasonable. That's part of the whole thing, though, we don't always blanket ban everything. Staff should be enforcing rules on a case-by-case basis. What might seem reasonable on one character, might not be reasonable for another character. In this case, birdhouse hair and Christmas light clothing is a definite no. Playing music loudly is a pass.

Also, I don't mean to accuse you of anything, but did you check their character profile to see if they're Eridanian?

I did check their records out through variables. They did not have any, but the way their flavor text read led me to believe they're meant to be a Ganger character.

Basically: Your manner suggested apathy and disinterest to the point of not wishing to your perform administration. This clearly wasn't the case, but I believe that I and many others would make a similar presumption in future from the way you presented yourself.

That's fair.

Outside of the concessions already made isnt this the kind of thing /pose should be used for? FT kinda implies you're blasting it 24/7. Even if you remember to change it.

If I have the ability to just go into an ahelp and close it out in just a few messages in a way that I can make sure everything abides by the rules in the end, then I'll take it. It's nothing about you as a player and it was nothing about me not having answers.

Your job is more than just to ban those that break the rules. I did not agree with your ruling, and was provided with nothing but a cold shoulder preventing any attempts at clarification or communication. If you're unwilling to communicate for any extended period because it's easier for you to close the ticket, then that's, in my eyes, an issue.

These were addressed by the player.

[...]

I'd say it is, based on the player's response above.

This is all well and good, but you did not talk to them until now. Anything based on responses given in this thread is based on information that neither you nor I had.

Again, this is not something that is done in the modern day

But it is. I stated that earlier.

I'm referring to speakers in the hair, which doesn't happen. If you mean to tell me you've worked with someone who had speakers in their hair, I mean, I'm not gonna disbelieve you, but I don't think that's what you meant.

I'm not sure if we're on the same page or not from your response. If you agree that you were unfairly terse and laconic in your response, and that in future you'd take more time to explain and discuss rulings, then I have no desire to pursue this complaint. Otherwise, I'm steadfast by my appraisal that it's your job as staff to at least take reasonable steps to ensure that everyone at least understands the ruling, and has a chance to explain themselves, even if they're not explicitly satisfied by it.

Hi, I'm sorry for the delay on this.

So, there are two points here. The ruling itself and the ticket closing, I'll deal with them respectively.

The ruling itself is right with the concept, it's an IC issue, I agree with this. However, I feel further clarification and standards could've been made clear. The issue with keeping it as flavor text and doing emotes to lower the volume is that not everyone gets to see the emote. For one you could effectively be playing it at 100% for an entire round, for others it could be at 0% volume since they saw the music turned off. When in reality, the character may have raised it and lowered multiple times. I don't feel the speakers themselves are absurd. I think what matters here is how the character portrays themselves, it's why I'm placing a guideline for the player themselves to follow.

So [mention]Maereo[/mention] in the future will need to utilize the pose to adjust how the speakers are being used. If it's something visible, sure include it in the flavortext but only that it's something you can see. If you're going to adjust it, yes use emotes. But since this something you'll also need to use your pose for.

An example is you walk out of the kitchen. You emote turning it off, you then adjust your pose for it. This way your FT would have the speaker visible, people can see your pose that it's off.

The second aspects is the ticket closing.

When sending adminhelps, be CLEAR and CONCISE - it makes things a lot easier for us to deal with. Try to include character names if possible.

All staff ingame decisions are final. OOC and adminhelp aren't the place to argue about our staff's decisions. If you'd like to contest a punishment, rule, or actions from a staffmember, start a discussion thread in the appropriate subsection of our forums, either Unban Requests, Staff Complaints, or General Discussion (for discussing specific rules).

When a person is sending an ahelp, especially over minor issues, it's generally expected that their ahelp is sufficient. Maybe the ticket closed was abruptly to you, but keep in mind that you did ahelp something with zero context, so upon your clarification, they were able to make their judgement. Even on the second ticket, they took it and clarified further. Tickets aren't the place for major discussions, it's why we have a complaint board.

[mention]TishinaStalker[/mention][mention]Ornias[/mention]

Going to leave this open for a day at the very least in case further information is brought here.

All cool with me, tbh.

Since I'm positively sure everyone involved has seen my reply and no further information is being brought.

Locking and archiving.