unfair job ban from science / biased treatment based on false accusations of attitude for there was none

BYOND Key: Voyd2000

Staff BYOND Key: ShameOnTurtles

Game ID: bWq-aEMO

Reason for complaint: unfairly job banned,

Evidence/logs/etc:

Additional remarks:

Kanza was job banned from science unfairly because the admin above decided I was giving attitude which I wasn't, and my escalation was perfectly valid given the situation at hand. Kanza was being beaten and tried to run and gun to get away from the situation, she suffered the consequences and that was it. But this person decided they were going to try and police my role-play with false accusations and harassment and false claims, I believe this job ban was an unfair escalation because I wasn't happy to speak with them on the subject and they made the object of claim that I was giving attitude which is untrue, this was a power-play move to slap me with admin dick and I don't appreciate it.

I've been playing here for years and this is the first time I've ever had an issue

I'm going to handle this complaint. If you have logs and evidence, I suggest you post them as well.

Unfortunately, I don't have any logs and thus a lack of evidence, I've never been through this process so I don't know how to access the relevant data, I apologize. I figured the game ID would help you guys on your end of which I was able to provide.

The raiders in this situation had decided to take over the station for the round, and they were pretty much successful establishing this. As far as I recall, there was only the warden for security, and the raiders quickly grouped up civilian crew, including Voyd, and told them what was up.

Not long after, Voyd, playing Kanza the lab assistant, printed off weaponry and equipment including force gloves, a plasma cutter, a Lawgiver Mk. 2 and I believe more but I do not know for certain. I witnessed them go to the Warden, give them the lawgiver, and instruct them how to use it (while wearing the force gloves they printed off). This move was witnessed by raiders who decided to 'teach her a lesson' in the form of a beating. Two raiders come to the security lobby and try to beat her (the beating consisted of stunning them with a baton, and hitting them twice with it, then stepping back). During the beating Kanza attempted to get up and hurl the raider hitting her to the ground with forcegloves, at the end when he stepped back, she pulled out a plasma cutter and unloaded on him, before getting shot and headgibbed by another raider who had come on scene, who had a revolver.

Not once from when the raiders initially gathered up civilians, to when they had killed you, did you show any kind of reasonable fear RP.

Full PM logs:

The exact wording of the ban:

The issues that lead up to me contacting you:

• Lack of fear RP
  
  You specifically say that your character was not afraid because they are only afraid of humans, yet any reasonable person should be afraid of someone with obvious hostile intent who has guns, especially someone as child-like as the character Kanza. Not only did you escalate the combat with the raiders, but beforehand you showed no fear whatsoever of them or their capabilities, continuing with child-like naive behavior that was completely inappropriate to the situation. I am not saying you have to RP fear/caution a certain way, but you must RP it to some extent.
  
• Powergaming
  
  As a lab assistant you should not be self-sufficient with Research and Development. I do not expect lab assistants to never print anything but printing off and using advanced equipment in the protolathe is not one of your abilities. I was mostly concerned about the fact that you stocked yourself up with combat gear, and when confronted by antagonists, used it to go into a suicidal rush against them. To be clear: Your escalation was somewhat valid, but the methods used definitely were not. As soon as you could you fired all the shots from the plasma cutter into the raider. When you say 'I wasn't exactly firing it with accuracy' that is completely false, as all shots landed on their target.
  

What made me escalate to a ban:

• You made it very clear to me in the ticket that you disagreed, and were not going to abide by my ruling.
  
  You refused to acknowledge what you did wrong in this situation, and you refused to acknowledge my decision as staff. Staff decisions are final, on server. I did not believe that, with this attitude towards the ruling, a warning or a 'time out' in the form a temporary ban would have seen a change in your behavior. The attitude I referred to was not your tone, but you actual attitude towards the ruling.
  

Lastly, regarding what you describe in this thread:

Kanza was job banned from science unfairly because the admin above decided I was giving attitude which I wasn't, and my escalation was perfectly valid given the situation at hand.

The fact that you still say what you did was valid is exactly why I wanted to force this extended dialogue. You tried to 'run and gun' away from a situation as a civilian player. In this instance, it was not acceptable, and your primary focus as a civilian should be to stay safe and not cause yourself harm, not escalate the situation with the antagonists.

But this person decided they were going to try and police my role-play with false accusations and harassment and false claims, I believe this job ban was an unfair escalation because I wasn't happy to speak with them on the subject and they made the object of claim that I was giving attitude which is untrue, this was a power-play move to slap me with admin dick and I don't appreciate it.

There is no reasonable basis to say that I am biased, harassing, or trying to make a 'power-play move'. I have never interacted with you before to my knowledge, and certainly not in an administrative capacity. Please stop trying to make this out as me specifically targeting you.

I'm going to start off by explaining a few things with regards to Kanza.

First off she is deceptively young looking and is much older than she looks, she has been around the station for many years and has survived multiple horrific canon events, she has learned that being scared doesn't help situations, it doesn't help humans feel safe, She tries very hard to stay brave and will sometimes give herself a false sense of security by having a gun that she would never use.

This wasn't her first time in the science laboratory, Shes been there for a good month and a half or more under the tutelage of some incredible players within science, all of them more than willing to teach Kanza all sorts of things, She's always considered the force gloves the ultimate in passive resistance, employing a strategy of push and run.

In this case when I was dealing with threats to her well-being, initially started with the threat of amputation of her arm she was trying to maintain a brave stance for the human behind her that was indeed scared of the situation, my initial plan for the situation was to engage with a single shove and run back to the lab in order to lock the RnD computer, however She was knocked out in one hit with the baton, when she stood up she attempted to enact the original strategy of push and run, the first shove failed on an RNG level, then her and the antagonist traded blows, she was knocked out again and the RNG gods pushed the antagonist away with a power-shove from the gloves.

When Kenza woke up from being knocked out the second time she attempted to run and gun her way out of the situation using a limited use plasma cutter that only had six shots, (She used up the previous shots trying to kill invisible monkeys from hallucinations) it wasn't my intent to kill but to fire wildly in the direction of said antagonist and try to run away, be it driven by fear or will to survive, She made it two steps out of the door and was about to throw the plasma cutter itself at the antagonist and run when her head exploded, and rightfully so. keeping in mind that I also had a fully functioning pin installed gun that I could've chosen over the plasma cutter, but I didn't, because it's not in Kanzas character to used close range weapons on people, give her a sniper rifle and it could be a different story but that wasn't the case and the above situation.

This wasn't Kanza's first time handling a firearm, she has always been fascinated by them working in cargo, she even tried to become a security cadet in order to foster that curiosity, whether she wants to admit it or not her M'sai lineage is that of brave warriors and fighters, it's literally in her DNA, she may be hyper and objectively cute and sit on the floor but she's not a perpetual victim, especially when it comes to dealing with non-human alien races and keeping humans safe.

Kanza has always been quick to hand over a weapon to someone that will use it better than she can, I am personally not robust, I don't play antagonist roles and I have always strived to make antagonist feel safe around Kanza that she would never try to Hero smash them like 85% of the people that play for the valid salad, in the situation above was the first time I had ever gotten a fireing pin from security, and surprisingly he threw the whole box at me.

In closing.

Yes I still believe what I did was a completely valid escalation and I paid the ultimate price for my escalation and rightfully so, I didn't accept said admins "ruling" because it was based on ignorance, lack of knowledge and assumptions of my character like he said in his post above he's never interacted with me and doesn't know me or my character, And furthermore "tone" was assumed and implied when there was no such thing happening. Granted I wasn't thrilled to be talking with the administration over what I felt was a completely valid situation and outcome but I never once claimed I was going to ignore your warning, I voiced my opposition and wanted to be done with the situation. If you were looking for a "yes sir" "no sir" "please and thank you Sir" attitude, you were not going to get it and if I stroked your ego the wrong way I apologize.

The issue about fear RP/technical ability of Kanza does not have anything to do with how they look, but how they act. You are free to make a veteran of the Tajaran civil war who is putting on a brave face, but that needs to be roleplayed as a brave face- an act. I would also expect that someone who's a capable sniper and someone who refers to guns, and I quote, as "shooty pew pews" would not be the same person. I would go as far as to say those outlooks are dichotomous. Being taught stuff in round is great, and I'm glad that RP happened, but a lot of the stuff on station, including R&D, isn't as simple as just being talked/walked through it, even if this isn't represented mechanically. The exact level of skill level of your assistant is not a major point, nor is the fact you were printing stuff off. It is the way that equipment was used and the intent behind printing it off.

I am treating you and your arguments with respect and I ask that you would do the same. This not about either of our egos.

I was one of the raiders that round (I was playing shiro, who was going around and interacting with other departments outside of cargo and civilian to share the raider love). I did have a little interaction with kanza that round when I kidnapped Ariik neuman the scientist, who came along because I was parading the only security member on station in cuffs at the time and waltzed in with all access. IC he said he came along with me because he didn't know what the raiders could do to him, and that he would rather cooperate and not risk being shot as the (semi) leader of the raiders was getting to know them. I do believe this was in front of kanza but I can't exactly remember, all I do know is that there was a few times I spoke IC to them about how they were playing it smart by working with me, not against me. At that point I took Ariik I left the warden in the hall (so he could get back into the round) and Kanza in the lab under the assumption that they wouldn't cause any issues. Once I heard that she had given the warden a weapon that is when I ordered the other raiders initially to cut an arm off, but then we decided to drop it down to a minor beating because we had a whip with us and the whole plan was to take over the station and force everyone or a majority of people to do mining (which kind of backfired when the SM blew). Later I saw kanza being dragged through the hall and heard one of the other raiders got seriously injured by kanza with a gun.

As for IC, I have interacted with them a few times as my two science characters, and from what I have seen any time they are present with the opportunity to learn something they soak it up like a sponge. It wouldn't be super unreasonable for them to understand how to print the guns, but using them properly is pushing it a little. Rping out something like jostling the gun while trying to fire it and causing a jam would make sense, but running and gunning doesn't. Even IRL I can imagine firing a gun while running is dangerous and hard to properly do, and would be something that would take a lot of training. I don't think unloading a plasma cutter into one of the other raiders was properly escalated, mostly because of fear RP.

The misquote above critiquing how Kanza says things is first wrong and doesn't mean anything with regard to her knowledge of a given topic or tech, Her use of what she calls "human words." Has always been incredibly awkward and difficult for her, she refers to guns in two different ways based on which type of gun she is talking about. a "pew-pew gun" means laser-based weapons, a "loud pew-pew gun." means projectile based, She calls binoculars "Zoom eyes." and she calls bombs "Booms" she universally calls all nonhuman aliens "Bugaboos." How she communicates things don't mean a damn thing and is irrelevant. Any Tajara that talks with her can tell you, she is fully articulate with her words if they can get her talking in their native tongue, however this is also rare because she won't do it when humans are around, she considers it rude and she grew up in a place where it was incredibly taboo for human ears to hear that kind of thing from her or members of her family, it was incredibly discouraged and harshly punished.

While I can't really speak on behalf of Voyd's attitude, I just want to mention a few things. My experiences with Kanza have been nothing but positive. I was skeptical of their science transfer at first, but they've quickly earned their place. The fact that they had access to firing pins and chose a weak plasma cutter instead of a lawgiver should at least be enough to drop the powergaming accusation. My go-to is the much much deadlier bee gun (get fucked, organics). As for everyone calling it a 'gun', it's really not. It's a nerfed mining tool that does exponentially weak damage against armored opponents.

As for the fear RP accusation, not everyone feels fear the same way. It's called the fight or flight reflex for a reason. If people are going to be punished for using the tools at their disposal to try and defend themselves in a dire situation despite the odds being against them, then we need to amend the rules to reflect the 'correct' way to roleplay.

Ultimately, I don't think a permanent science ban is needed. It's excessive for something so minor. A couple days or maybe a week at most should give anyone enough time to reflect on what they've done. It was just 1 round, it's not like they have a pathological history of Kanza-Ramboing. Plus they died as a consequence. Since nowadays character death is considered this big thing now, I would say they got what they deserved.

As for the fear RP accusation, not everyone feels fear the same way. It's called the fight or flight reflex for a reason.

a million of times this. the raiders had pretty much completely taken over the station. no help was on the way and we had no hope of leaving soon. it's not unreasonable 1.) make any of these tools, 2.) to use whatever tool you have in your hand to try and stop someone if you're cornered.

about not missing:

this is also not unreasonable and i am very firm on this.

i'll explain: most encounters on this station take place as near as six feet away and sometimes up to eighteen feet away. 1-3 tiles is that far. unless two people are in an open hall, you're rarely going to have more distance than that between you and your attacker. even with no firearms training, just about anyone can hit a 7' tall, 3' wide target from that distance just by pointing and squeezing a trigger mechanism, especially when said target is advancing closer. on top of that, the plasma cutter emits a visible projectile, effectively a tracer. without even thinking, you'd be able to adjust your aim because you're literally seeing exactly where you're hitting. at that point it's like using a laser pointer. as i'm typing this, i'm six feet from a restroom door and i could chuck my shoe at it and hit it 10/10 times guaranteed. if i had a pointy shooty gun i could hit it with my eyes closed.

I would also like to add that during the conversation the topic of power gaming was never brought up, the escalation from a warning to permanent ban came after I said "do whatever you want." Knowing that I had zero power in the situation only for said Admin to come back with "because of your attitude I am permanently job banning from science."

So as far as I'm concerned the escalation to perma job ban wasn't related to lack of fear role-play or power gaming, it was because I wasn't being pleasant and it was assumed I was giving "attitude" when I wasn't, You even stated so when you decided to escalate the punishment to a permanent ban, power gaming wasn't the stated issue, it was "a negative attitude" during my interrogation.

You're damn right I'm going to be in a negative mood when I'm being accused of things that I didn't do from an individual who doesn't know me, doesn't know my character, has never interacted with me and is now painting my picture however they wish because all decisions are final, okay Judge Dred, you are the Law, can I go now? was my view on the situation.

Voyd, not to be a dick but you’re missing the point by about 10 miles.

The punishment wasn’t escalated because you powergamed, it was because you didn’t respect the authority present in the game.

You have to respect and understand that the Staff have the final say on these things, even if you don’t like them. We have an entire sub-forum dedicated to solving issues that arise. We are literally in it.

Again, it was escalated due to a lack of respect, which should be given to Staff who take their time and effort to promote the server’s well-being.

On the topic of Fear RP:

On the topic of powergaming:

On the topic of escalating to a permanent ban:

I believe I have addressed everything now. Please, unless there is new information to bring up, let's not go over the same points that have already been talked about.

I've got to say as someone never out of science (well yeah I do get around as a load of other characters to ) but Kanza was well on their way to a great scientist and how they're still an assistant even though they keep getting vetted to a fully fledged scientist, is probably just time; I've seen them afraid to go to the sub-level firing range after the Lii'dra and hide in lockers when science was attacked, hell I've seen them play pain and fear that have actually had the character develop a soft spot in my heart where I do become concerned if they get hurt which is pretty hard to form a character bond like that.

I was Ariik that round, yeah I had a feeling (when we were getting shot by the turrets in the AI core) the warden and Kanza was going to have some sort of rebellion against our new pirate overlords because she thought I'd been kidnapped. Kanza has done a load of weapons development and testing while in research in the most endearing way and when she gets brave it's adorable (like when we all kitted her out with force gloves, an energy glaive and shield because it was cute as hell), anyway I think I'm getting sidetracked and laughing to myself about all those times fondly, but in science, we aren't some sorta paramilitary, we're just nerds with pretty dangerous toys. I never told her to comply with the raiders and I'm sure the warden was going to rope her into being some sort of resistance, which was obviously going to be a suicide mission and when I was grabbed by Shiro I could hear them talking about cutting off "the assistant's arm" and the like over their radio. So I knew something bad was going down and she was dead before we made it back. This kinda nerd rage bravado seems to be a bit of a learning curve for the vast majority of science mains, that I've even made, and more often than not it comes down to a plasma cutter.

Hell, I did get bwoinked by Alb or Abo when an IPC had Sukhoi at gunpoint, sec were with me outside the conference room and I had a plasma cutter as well, though that was kinda to shoot at meddling drones who kept stealing shit while the AI, stationbound and IPCs all went rogue, but after the IPC shot Suhkoi I fired at them and chased them before getting Sukhoi out of rage for shooting my trapson in the face. Now I do feel they didn't get the whole bond we'd developed as characters but that's ok, they filter through hundreds of characters and the rules are there to set limits of how far we'd go, it's not like death is really that much of an emotional issue when there's cloning and advanced future medicine so first and foremost stick to your own character. This kinda warning sticks with you, and sure as hell would it stick with Voyd, especially since it's been brought to the forums, that you have to respect the staff because if it wasn't for them dedicating their time then we wouldn't have any of this, they are not some sort of tyrants here to ruin the fun. We all fuck up but there's no point clinging to it when we have, ShameOnTurtles is a neutral bystander watching over everyone and not trying to shit on you.

Kanza would be sorely missed in research, Voyd you need to just take this into your stride and learn from it. It's a real shame this escalated to a job ban when it seems like an aberrant round that got out of hand for them, which especially seems to happen after a few consecutive rounds. I can imagine (and see) Voyd being incredibly upset about this as they've really became a feature in the research lab and to just all out lose their place there is a fair shock to the system after so long and so much, but sometimes things go haywire and you have to accept and apologize rather than kick-off.

I actually really hope this can be resolved without it being a permanent ban, I really don't think Kanza or Voyd has a track record or anything for stepping out of line but y'all would know better. Sorry if I got a bit ranty along the way.

I apologize for the delay, it sat for a bit.

After reviewing the logs present here, I do agree with the verdict handed by [mention]ShameOnTurtles[/mention] and while the escalation was could be considered severe, it is valid. I'm not attributing this to your tone, but rather your disregard to a verdict handed to you by a Primary Administrator. Furthermore, I don't believe Shame conducted himself improperly with you.

[06:48:52] voyd2000 -> shameonturtles: do whatever you wish, it was still a valid choice and valid consequences.

What I can gather from this is an unwillingness to understand and learn, regardless of who is really right and wrong here. If as an example I am trying to enforce a rule on a player who I believed was grossly violating it and they tell me it's valid and fine, then per my intuition and experience, I might escalate as well to press home the point. When enforcing our rules, one of the primary things we seek to avoid is re-offenses.

You made it very clear to me in the ticket that you disagreed, and were not going to abide by my ruling.

We filter through a tremendous amount of people and interactions with people, I looked up last months count and there were over 2700 tickets accepted. The assumption based on your interaction was not something I would consider unfounded here. You interacted with [mention]ShameOnTurtles[/mention] in a specific way and per his best judgment, assumed.

You're not a malicious person [mention]EmperorVoyd[/mention] and I can understand your frustration in all this. You've been playing here for longer than I have and have a rather good track record all things considered. I just don't think disregarding a verdict in the way you have to Shame was proper, and it resulted in this escalation.

In regard to your in-character interaction itself, you need to consider the item you used along with the circumstance. You were using an industrial tool that cut apart walls and rocks. The intensity of items is not entirely limited by their mechanical values, and even then, the plasmacutter was extremely dangerous at one point since it used to delimb people with ease, cutting even ERT troopers in half. While I won't presume to know your character, but what I'm seeing from my point of view here is your 4'11 20 year old Tajara with a childish demeanor and memory issues was acting rather nonchalant to a Vox carrying a claymore.

In closing, I think the purpose of the ban itself has been fulfilled in that it opened dialogue between both parties. I've spoken with Shame and he's perfectly fine with lifting the ban if the issues here are understood. So, what do you both say? [mention]EmperorVoyd[/mention][mention]ShameOnTurtles[/mention]

I understand and I hope this ban can be lifted, I will choose my words wisely when dealing with staff in the future and will be more careful with my actions ICly. Thank you for considering lifting this ban and all parties for their input both good and bad.

Purpose of the ban has been resolved and the complaint itself has been resolved. The ban will be lifted soon.

Locking and archiving.