Shimmer Posted March 2 Posted March 2 I think the way infected IPCs currently causes a lot of issues with players willing to explore Konyang outside of point verdant, because as it stands right now, the way IPCs spawn are through a set of a specific map ruins. Well what's the problem with that? It's that they're not locked in to that specific ruin, meaning those really fast, instant agro mobs rush players in the middle of nowhere away from any indication they could possibly be there in the middle of the jungle. This leads to either of two issues, issue A is where you disregard the fact that you are not supposed to kill those IPCs, given their Konyang citizens, and you treat them as just simple mobs like carp or reavers, leading into the funny issue of quadruple murders happening without a second thought put to it. Or issue B, you don't treat them as simple mobs, meaning it's very hard to justify going down to the planet to explore sites and ruins on it that aren't focused on either hivebots or those that show off the devastation brought upon by the virus. It's frustrating, because if you want to play a non-violence inclined character, be they BC, or xenoarch, or miner, you are essentially locked out of reasonably exploring Konyang, which sucks because it locks out those same characters from being able to share what they saw. Too many of those same stories or memories just end up being 'i was zombied, it was horrible :c' which imo doesn't really feel fun to interact with or explore. It feels hollow, uninteresting. So what the fuck is my actual suggestion to all those problems I find? Redesign the way the ruins in which infested IPCs spawn and work. Make them more similar to the hivebot ruins, wherein all the infected IPCs are locked inside and unable to leave. You can go in and fight them, you have that option, but you also have an easier option of retreat, there is an indication of a threat rather than being randomly ambushed, and it allows players to explore interesting, visual ruins found on Konyang, like the trinarist altar for example. It also allows xenoarcheologists to explore the place with less worry, allowing them to look for alien artefacts on the planet known for having been the source of a significant alien artefact - positronics. 1
Lly2 Posted March 3 Posted March 3 i had a thought that these ipcs might be a cool place to make use of some simplified version of space bear AI. instead of just running directly at something as soon as its in range, they stand and stare until you hang around long enough or do something to specifically aggro them. it feels to me like a really simple change to help with the problem in the quote below and replace it with something a little more tense and navigable for those characters who are nonviolent, even if was only kept as simple as them not aggroing as soon as you come into view 9 hours ago, Shimmer said: It's frustrating, because if you want to play a non-violence inclined character, be they BC, or xenoarch, or miner, you are essentially locked out of reasonably exploring Konyang, which sucks because it locks out those same characters from being able to share what they saw. i think it would be very soulful if people could take it slow through the countryside, have to actually keep an eye out for these things appearing on the edge of their screen, and would have a few seconds to evade out of the way if they do happen to bump into one and "see it before it sees them". 2
Fluffy Posted March 3 Posted March 3 10 hours ago, Shimmer said: Well what's the problem with that? It's that they're not locked in to that specific ruin I don't think that's a problem, the entire planet is supposed to be almost overrun by rampant IPCs, it wouldn't make sense for them to be always found locked inside buildings 10 hours ago, Shimmer said: issue A is where you disregard the fact that you are not supposed to kill those IPCs, given their Konyang citizens, and you treat them as just simple mobs like carp or reavers, leading into the funny issue of quadruple murders happening without a second thought put to it If they come for you to kill you and they are faster than you are, you are doing self defense 10 hours ago, Shimmer said: you are essentially locked out of reasonably exploring Konyang, which sucks because it locks out those same characters from being able to share what they saw You can bring someone with you to defend, but yes, the planet is supposed to be in a zombie crysis as above, having people waltz around the surface with impunity (outside of the protected city) would contrast with the current situation you'd expect from the planet 10 hours ago, Shimmer said: You can go in and fight them, you have that option This would be the IPC equivalent of someone doing a mass shooting according to Konyang law, not only you'd get thanos snapped by the CCIA, it's even possible you'd be thanos snapped from the administrative team in regards to believability and sane characters rules 10 hours ago, Shimmer said: It also allows xenoarcheologists to explore the place with less worry It's a planet supposedly being overrun of zombies but IPCs, outside of safe areas, it would not make sense to "explore with less worry" 2
Shimmer Posted March 3 Author Posted March 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fluffy said: I don't think that's a problem, the entire planet is supposed to be almost overrun by rampant IPCs, it wouldn't make sense for them to be always found locked inside buildings 1 hour ago, Fluffy said: You can bring someone with you to defend, but yes, the planet is supposed to be in a zombie crysis as above, having people waltz around the surface with impunity (outside of the protected city) would contrast with the current situation you'd expect from the planet 1 hour ago, Fluffy said: It's a planet supposedly being overrun of zombies but IPCs, outside of safe areas, it would not make sense to "explore with less worry" It wouldn't make sense for the SCC to build a forward exploration outpost in a place infested so badly with IPCs you can't step outside. How did they build this outpost if the planet is that badly infested? Did they kill two dozen IPCs to protect the construction crews? Did dozens of the same crew perish in it's construction? Why are there still pirate hideouts, villages, firewatch towers, communications bases, if it's so badly overrun there is no possibility what so ever to live down there unharassed. The villagers and firewatchers and pirates have no fencing, and the former have no means to defend themselves. Should all of them stop existing because it doesn't make sense, the area is too hostile for it? It doesn't make sense for the SCC to be allowing expeditions down there in the first place, it would be extremely unprofitable to send down exploration teams to a zombieland in which they are almost certain to be attacked. Why do jeweller cockatoos spawn in there? It doesn't make sense for them to live in such dangerous places, half of the time those birds just die! Wouldn't they migrate away somewhere less dangerous and zombie-y? If it's so baaaadly infested, why are there rounds in which none of those ruins spawn in, and so, no infected IPCs are around? Shouldn't they be like carp then, a random spawn? Afterall, it's that badly overrun! Oh but that's not the point of my thread, is it? We can argue what does and doesn't make sense until we're blue in the face, and in any other thread I will! The point of the thread is that it isn't fucking fun. It isn't fun to gear every single expedition to a planet with a lot of effort put to it, and a lot of uniqueness to it, and a lot of love put into it, to the same degree as if you're going down to Mordor. It isn't fun to fight those IPCs again and again and again and again and have to either dismiss them entirely because it's the seventh time you had to kill them or to pretend to be mournful over a simplemob. It's not fun to not be able to explore places like the trinarist altar, a site that's made beautifully by all means, because you are required to grab with you security officers that usually don't give a shit about the off site and it's meaning. It's not fucking fun that security, a department that already has the MOST amount of gameplay and players out of EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT, again gets yet even MORE gameplay and yet MORE reasons to play it over others departments in the game, to the detriment of other roles who's purpose is purely exploratory in nature! Want to go down as a xenoarch or BC to mess around on a hand crafted planet? Boo hoo, get yourself people from a department that already has all the toys, and all the stuff to do, because otherwise you will literally die. I think the problem of 'it makes' sense can be suspended here, ey? Lly puts it well, I'd prefer characters be able to walk and take in the scenery of the planet, it's more soulful and more useful for character development than knockoff project zomboid, another notch on the shotgun edition:tm: 1 hour ago, Fluffy said: This would be the IPC equivalent of someone doing a mass shooting according to Konyang law, not only you'd get thanos snapped by the CCIA, it's even possible you'd be thanos snapped from the administrative team in regards to believability and sane characters rules It'd be better than what we have right now, where you can, technically completely without issue hunt IPCs and claim that anytime you kill them it's self defence. They're always going to be the attack party. A miner, can, just, gear up in a hard suit, KA, walk around 'mining' while waiting for an IPC to attack them and rack up those numbers. Prove it wasn't self defence! 2 hours ago, Lly2 said: i had a thought that these ipcs might be a cool place to make use of some simplified version of space bear AI. instead of just running directly at something as soon as its in range, they stand and stare until you hang around long enough or do something to specifically aggro them. Something like this would be a good alternative. My biggest issue right now is that they spot you before you have any indication they are near you and there is no way to evade them. If they spot you, you can't outrun them, you have to fight. Something like either an aggro system, or a detention radius, like say, enter within 5 tiles of the mob to get them to attack, outside of that you're gold. Edited March 3 by Shimmer s
Fluffy Posted March 3 Posted March 3 (edited) 2 hours ago, Shimmer said: It wouldn't make sense for the SCC to build a forward exploration outpost in a place infested so badly with IPCs you can't step outside. How did they build this outpost if the planet is that badly infested? Did they kill two dozen IPCs to protect the construction crews? Did dozens of the same crew perish in it's construction? AFAIK it was built before the IPC issue started, the megacorporate conglomerate has, unsurprisingly, offices and outposts in the various planets 2 hours ago, Shimmer said: Why are there still pirate hideouts, villages, firewatch towers, communications bases, if it's so badly overrun there is no possibility what so ever to live down there unharassed. The villagers and firewatchers and pirates have no fencing, and the former have no means to defend themselves. Should all of them stop existing because it doesn't make sense, the area is too hostile for it? It doesn't make sense for the SCC to be allowing expeditions down there in the first place, it would be extremely unprofitable to send down exploration teams to a zombieland in which they are almost certain to be attacked. Why do jeweller cockatoos spawn in there? It doesn't make sense for them to live in such dangerous places, half of the time those birds just die! Wouldn't they migrate away somewhere less dangerous and zombie-y? If it's so baaaadly infested, why are there rounds in which none of those ruins spawn in, and so, no infected IPCs are around? Shouldn't they be like carp then, a random spawn? Afterall, it's that badly overrun! Because people don't disappear overnight, the problem started what, a month ago? They are trying to survive with what they can, and dying otherwise, it's an entire planet and they didn't got the WH40K flesh eating virus bombed, they are being overrun by rampant IPCs, the local police and army is being beaten up and that's why they needed our help You are imagining some extinction level event wasteland scenario that is just not there, you don't cause an extinction level event in a single month, in fact I'm not even sure the rampant IPCs would be interested in the wildlife at all But ultimately, you answered your own question: The area is not overrun and that's why it's not filled to the brim with those zombies, but when they are spawned, it would make absolutely no sense whatsoever to always, only, inevitably see them locked into some building that you can pass by and look at them like if it's some animal in a zoo, if you always find them locked inside somewhere where they're not a threat, that creates what is called ludonarrative dissonance, what you experience in gameplay doesn't align with the story 2 hours ago, Shimmer said: The point of the thread is that it isn't fucking fun. It isn't fun to gear every single expedition to a planet with a lot of effort put to it, and a lot of uniqueness to it, and a lot of love put into it, to the same degree as if you're going down to Mordor. It isn't fun to fight those IPCs again and again and again and again and have to either dismiss them entirely because it's the seventh time you had to kill them or to pretend to be mournful over a simplemob. It's not fun to not be able to explore places like the trinarist altar, a site that's made beautifully by all means, because you are required to grab with you security officers that usually don't give a shit about the off site and it's meaning. It's not fucking fun that security, a department that already has the MOST amount of gameplay and players out of EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT, again gets yet even MORE gameplay and yet MORE reasons to play it over others departments in the game, to the detriment of other roles who's purpose is purely exploratory in nature! Want to go down as a xenoarch or BC to mess around on a hand crafted planet? Boo hoo, get yourself people from a department that already has all the toys, and all the stuff to do, because otherwise you will literally die. Firstly, while it might not be fun to you, it can indeed be fun to others Secondly, and more importantly, the premise is misrepresented: You can explore it, people did explore it You have expedition shotguns, you can request weapons to defend yourself, damn you can even build your own weapons and armors as Science to do that, and so on But that's not the problem is it? The problem is that if one wants to play a "uh no violence bad could never do it" character, then one has to accept the limitations imposed to said character If I make a character that is stupid, then I can't complain that in a future intrigue arc where a high cognitive performance is beneficial, I am limited by the character being stupid That's the point of having a limitation on characters, a limitation the player and maker of the character (generally) chooses, it limits you in what you can or cannot do; it is unfair in my opinion to then want the narrative representation to bend over backwards to accomodate for it so it isn't really a limitation: The player chose it, the player can choose to retcon it, the player can also choose to play another character that doesn't have that specific limitation Do you want to explore something despite the risks it involves? Either be able to defend yourself, bring someone else that is able and willing to, or accept the risk that you might die there All those are valid options to take Edited March 3 by Fluffy 2
Shimmer Posted March 3 Author Posted March 3 33 minutes ago, Fluffy said: AFAIK it was built before the IPC issue started, the megacorporate conglomerate has, unsurprisingly, offices and outposts in the various planets It's an SCC outpost, no a zeng-hu or a Hephaestus outpost. The SCC as itself has barely any presence on Konyang due to it being formerly Solarian, and being dominated by Einstein Engines. This outpost, is clearly marked as an SCC outpost, and conveniently has three landing platforms specifically for the Intrepid, Canary, and Spark, no other vessel can land there. This construction is recent, not old. It's marked as recent by the chainlink being painted on it. 36 minutes ago, Fluffy said: You are imagining some extinction level event wasteland scenario that is just not there, you don't cause an extinction level event in a single month, in fact I'm not even sure the rampant IPCs would be interested in the wildlife at all The rampant IPCs are DEFINITELY interested in the wildlife, giving anytime they spawn in the wildlife around them undergoes a complete extinction event, including aquatic animals and giant cockatoo birds. I'm not imagining some extinction level event, I'm point out that it is there. If any ruin with IPCs spawn in, the crew, any crew, will get attacked. What is portrayed planetwise is that the place is CRAWLING with infested IPCs, and it is, because if ruins do spawn in they spawn in upwards of 10-20 IPCs in a round. What, you want me to believe middle of nowhere jungle, in what you describe as not an apocalyptic total overrun, has that many infected IPCs? Just there? Just because? Middle of nowhere? Come off it. Either it's badly overrun, and the number makes sense. Or it's not, and the attacks are too frequent for what is supposed to be middle of nowhere. 46 minutes ago, Fluffy said: that creates what is called ludonarrative dissonance You wanna talk ludonarrative dissonance? Let's talk about the one where the SCC clearly states that fighting those IPCs is to be avoided at ALL costs, and yet permits expeditions to places where everyone knows they are present in large numbers. Why would Konyang permit those, knowing it's citizens will come to harm by expeditions that do not benefit it? It's almost like there is a good reason, a good fucking reason, I said arguing common sense and what makes sense and what doesn't is a stupid idea that will lead nowhere. It doesn't make sense for the SCC to send expeditions there, that's not what the SCC is there for, it's a waste of resources and deeply unprofitable. It doesn't make sense for Konyang to allow to expeditions to take place, because all of them ultimately lead to their citizens being shot dead for no gain. You can't argue 'it doesn't make sense', because if you start going down that path, I can poke holes in just about everything myself, too, and we can turn this into a pointless debate where you are convinced you are right, and so am I, and completely miss the point. So I am asking, plainly, simply, keep this on topic, the topic is not whether or not it makes sense, is whether or not it's enjoyable to do. 51 minutes ago, Fluffy said: Secondly, and more importantly, the premise is misrepresented: You can explore it, people did explore it I did not misrepresent the premise. What I am saying isn't that people aren't exploring the location, is that the infested IPCs attack people before they even notice heavily discourages exploration unless done in huge groups, during lowpop, you are practically forbidden from going down there. 53 minutes ago, Fluffy said: You have expedition shotguns, you can request weapons to defend yourself, damn you can even build your own weapons and armors as Science to do that, and so on As I have mentioned prior, the amount of infected IPCs that spawn are not single digit, they number in the tens to twenties. The expedition shotgun is cute and all, but it has four fucking shots total, ah yes! What a smart and totally sufficient solution to the problem! Or alternatively you as a bridge crew or xenoarch can totally break character, and start making weapons out of pipes. Or request weapons from security or operations that will never get approved, because the answer you will get is 'What are you doing? Going on a hunting party? Make due with your expedition shotgun!' 55 minutes ago, Fluffy said: The problem is that if one wants to play a "uh no violence bad could never do it" character, then one has to accept the limitations imposed to said character Limitations exist to promote roleplay and corral it into something interesting. This doesn't fucking do it. What you are essentially telling, is that anyone who plays a reasonable person that doesn't seek out violence and actively avoids it, you know, common sense that you put so much emphasis on previously, should be punished by a whole new map area to explore being locked off to them. In essence, play a reasonable character? You're not allowed to enjoy all the new fun parts we added, and you are not allowed to use them for character development. You are only ever allowed to explore the planet if you play someone willing to dome 7 IPCs in a row. How exactly is that good, explain? Why is punishing players for choosing to take a reasonable character, rather than a BOOYAH JOHN SOL, a good thing, again? 1
Fluffy Posted March 3 Posted March 3 28 minutes ago, Shimmer said: What I am saying isn't that people aren't exploring the location You kind of did though? Right here: 15 hours ago, Shimmer said: you are essentially locked out of reasonably exploring Konyang, which sucks because it locks out those same characters from being able to share what they saw. And in the same message here: 36 minutes ago, Shimmer said: should be punished by a whole new map area to explore being locked off to them. 29 minutes ago, Shimmer said: heavily discourages exploration unless done in huge groups I have explored or was sent down to Konyang with groups of 3/4 people, I don't think it's a "huge group" by any means 32 minutes ago, Shimmer said: The expedition shotgun is cute and all, but it has four fucking shots total, ah yes! What a smart and totally sufficient solution to the problem! Never said it is, do you want to propose something better to defend yourself with? I'm all for it, but that's not what you proposed 33 minutes ago, Shimmer said: Or alternatively you as a bridge crew or xenoarch can totally break character, and start making weapons out of pipes. Or request weapons from security or operations that will never get approved, because the answer you will get is 'What are you doing? Going on a hunting party? Make due with your expedition shotgun!' That can, and I think even should, be changed with some regulations or similar that says along the line of "given the risks of the location, anyone with a clearance and reason to visit those places is allowed to request and receive reasonable equipment for the purpose of self defense", want to propose that too? I would like to 35 minutes ago, Shimmer said: Limitations exist to promote roleplay and corral it into something interesting. This doesn't fucking do it. What you are essentially telling, is that anyone who plays a reasonable person that doesn't seek out violence and actively avoids it, you know, common sense that you put so much emphasis on previously, should be punished by a whole new map area to explore being locked off to them. In essence, play a reasonable character? You're not allowed to enjoy all the new fun parts we added, and you are not allowed to use them for character development. You are only ever allowed to explore the planet if you play someone willing to dome 7 IPCs in a row. Self imposed limitations exist because the player want those self imposed limitations to the character, and rule imposed limitations exist for the gameplay to be enjoyable, both can lead into something interesting only if they aren't thanos snapped the moment they actually become limitations, if any time limitations come into play in any meaningful way we have to change things so that the limitations aren't meaningfully limiting anymore, then nothing really interesting would come out of them A reasonable person that works for The Phoron Company™, on a ship after the most dangerous and precious material of the whole spur, doesn't need to seek violence but should likewise be able to defend himself and the ship if under existential threat, I have at no point said you should play Helldivers Doom Konyang Edition, but if rampant zombie IPCs (or anyone else) comes with the clear intent to kill you, it is perfectly reasonable to fight back to defend yourself and others Also you know a fun fact? You don't need to kill anyone of them! As they are IPCs, you can use EMP weapons (grenades or ion rifles) to discharge their battery, leaving them on the ground unable to move but perfectly alive You can also just destroy their frame without shooting them in their positronic brain, and like on-ship characters, you would not have killed them either No need to play John Sol at all here, just a normal person with the bare minimum ability to pool a spool on an EMP grenade and throw it, or pull a trigger on a rifle; considering entire wars and revolutions have been fought with far more difficult to use front loaded muskets by illiterate peasants, I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to know how to pull a trigger in 2466 as an employee working on the flagship going after the most precious thing known to man, really
Shimmer Posted March 3 Author Posted March 3 54 minutes ago, Fluffy said: You kind of did though? Right here: If you've read what I said instead of trying to just argue, you will note that I said the following; it heavily discourages exploration unless done in large groups, or unless well armed. You can look for any insinuation you want, but let me repeat again, my meaning, without you trying to infer something that isn't there; it heavily discourages any expeditions that are unarmed, and are not going in with the mindset that they will end up fighting something. 57 minutes ago, Fluffy said: Never said it is, do you want to propose something better to defend yourself with? I'm all for it, but that's not what you proposed So what you offered as a 'well you have a solution!' wasn't a solution. So the tools available to say, a BC and a sec off, literally aren't enough. So what you are saying is, you require either command to go explore, so you can get access to more weapons (something rarely granted), or you need to make new weapons with science. Return to my first point; heavily discouraged. 57 minutes ago, Fluffy said: That can, and I think even should, be changed with some regulations or similar that says along the line of "given the risks of the location, anyone with a clearance and reason to visit those places is allowed to request and receive reasonable equipment for the purpose of self defense", want to propose that too? I would like to So what you are proposing to my issue of the fact that there is too much fighting done on the planet, which hinders exploration in favor of a combat arena is... Give people more guns? Look- People don't go down to Konyang to fight IPCs, and those that do are delusional and don't understand what those IPCs are supposed to represent. The solution to that issue, it being, 'you shouldn't execute dozens and dozens and dozens of curable people to get a shiny rock' isn't 'well allow people to do that and give them more guns', its 'reduce the risk involved with going down to the planet so it's not a game of doom'. Allow me to repeat myself- Most people are not violence inclined, players should not be punished for playing reasonable characters. 1 hour ago, Fluffy said: A reasonable person that works for The Phoron Company™, on a ship after the most dangerous and precious material of the whole spur, doesn't need to seek violence but should likewise be able to defend himself and the ship if under existential threat, I have at no point said you should play Helldivers Doom Konyang Edition, but if rampant zombie IPCs (or anyone else) comes with the clear intent to kill you, it is perfectly reasonable to fight back to defend yourself and others A reasonable person averse to fighting would likewise also not go down to a planet knowing that fighting might occur. When I say violence averse, I do not mean incapable of self defence, but going down to Konyang requires you to go down to it with the mindset of 'It's CRAWLING with IPCs and I might get attacked', it's too hostile for any reasonable character to willingly go down to it unless heavily defended by others, locking out any smaller, sight seeing expeditions that BCs are able to organize. You can't avoid those zombies is the thing, if they spot you, you have to fight, and if they spawn on a planet they are HEAVILY likely to at some point spot you. Tell me, would you be willing to go down on Konyang, given how frequently attacks happen there, knowing that you have 4 fucking shots to make due with? Or are you telling me you'd want to face one of those things in melee with a machete? 1 hour ago, Fluffy said: As they are IPCs, you can use EMP weapons (grenades or ion rifles) to discharge their battery, leaving them on the ground unable to move but perfectly alive You can also just destroy their frame without shooting them in their positronic brain, and like on-ship characters, you would not have killed them either Again, you are ignoring my primary issue in that you are giving solutions to be more effective at combat, wherein my argument is that this combat is an issue to begin with. You know another solution? You can get a mech! And then stomp all of those infected IPCs to death! And make a notch for everyone you get. You could just go around with a mech and EMP anything that moves! Or use the leviathan to clear the way for expeditions! : D The fact that those solutions are even proposed or needed proves my point. Konyang as it stands is too much of a combat arena, and the solution to that is moving it away from being a combat arena to something else, not giving players more unique ways to gun down Konyang's civilian population, as zombie as they might be.
Owen Posted March 3 Posted March 3 It is clear that there are some strong feelings either way here. Just a gentle reminder to keep things reasonable here and try to avoid coming off as overly aggressive with your posts.
Mr.Popper Posted March 3 Posted March 3 Quote i had a thought that these ipcs might be a cool place to make use of some simplified version of space bear AI. instead of just running directly at something as soon as its in range, they stand and stare until you hang around long enough or do something to specifically aggro them. it feels to me like a really simple change to help with the problem in the quote below and replace it with something a little more tense and navigable for those characters who are nonviolent, even if was only kept as simple as them not aggroing as soon as you come into view This would be a great compromise of making the IPCs a present force on the map without them being overbearing. The way I see it the issue with the IPC NPCs is not that they exist- it makes the arc more relevant and I would not want them to be locked away in a dungeon where they act even more like video game enemies- the issue is their simple mob behavior is incongruent with RP. It works fine with aggressive animals because there is little RP to be had with them, but a theoretically sentient mob should be way more nuanced. Basically, either give them the space bear AI as suggested above or create custom behavior where they are still aggressive but do not immediately bolt for players. Instead they could hover around passively until aggroed (maybe when someone comes near or runs around making a lot of noise). It would provide far more opportunity for tense RP without completely invalidating the threat they pose. 1
hazelmouse Posted March 3 Posted March 3 21 minutes ago, Mr.Popper said: This would be a great compromise of making the IPCs a present force on the map without them being overbearing. The way I see it the issue with the IPC NPCs is not that they exist- it makes the arc more relevant and I would not want them to be locked away in a dungeon where they act even more like video game enemies- the issue is their simple mob behavior is incongruent with RP. It works fine with aggressive animals because there is little RP to be had with them, but a theoretically sentient mob should be way more nuanced. Basically, either give them the space bear AI as suggested above or create custom behavior where they are still aggressive but do not immediately bolt for players. Instead they could hover around passively until aggroed (maybe when someone comes near or runs around making a lot of noise). It would provide far more opportunity for tense RP without completely invalidating the threat they pose. I really like this idea! I'd love if an encounter with an infected IPC was like a tense stand-off that isn't necessarily going to result in one of either parties dying. 12 hours ago, Lly2 said: i think it would be very soulful if people could take it slow through the countryside, have to actually keep an eye out for these things appearing on the edge of their screen, and would have a few seconds to evade out of the way if they do happen to bump into one and "see it before it sees them". Exactly this!
Ramke Posted March 3 Posted March 3 If I recall correctly the bear AI waits and extraordinarily long time even after getting shot to start doing something. I get what Shimmer is saying here but I have to side with Fluffy, why would you go sight-seeing on a planet that is literally being overrun by hostile, crazed IPCs? It doesn't make sense logically and for the purpose of the arc I think it's fine in portraying the "things are fucked" on Konyang. There's also no limitation for you to go there but your character's beliefs. You can go to Point Verdant if you want to sight-see or not be in danger of being attacked by IPCs. 1
Sniblet Posted March 3 Posted March 3 (edited) 11 hours ago, Ramke said: If I recall correctly the bear AI waits and extraordinarily long time even after getting shot to start doing something The bear AI also growls and roars, is meant to simulate territoriality, and has been crashing everyone in sight as soon as it goes violent as of late. We don’t need to copy it exactly. IPCs that hesitate just one to five seconds are still a credible threat to Konyang’s order. They also sound like they could be really creepy and cool with the right flavor. The sounds they make currently are good, but they could do more, and ideally they'd do more in a situation where you can think about what you’re seeing instead of how you’re going to survive the next 30 seconds. In an earlier BitByte, a new shell frame was described as “shouting nonsense,” which implies she was talking, or at least making noises like speech. Imagine them trying to talk to you. Anyway, this is kind of unrelated - it's just what all you extendedbros could have if Konyang weren’t 100% mechanical the second a rampant comes into frame. I like the point about why Konyang would let us onto the surface at all if every visit included a serious risk of catastrophically maiming or murdering dozens of their (EXTREMELY expensive) people. Or, on that note, why the SCC doesn’t harshly restrict those expeditions, since they’ll probably foot the bill for tens of millions of credits of totaled frames and (hopefully) accidentally winged or destroyed brains. Neither Konyang nor the SCC gain anything valuable enough from the crew going on a countryside stroll, mining trip, or archaeology expedition to justify the inevitable cost. If we add a way to get through these random encounters that doesn’t leave somebody dead, or only cost a hundred thousand BSC at best, then it will kind of make sense to let us down there for any of the reasons that might come up in an average round. Until then, there's about zero legitimate reasons to ever go down to Konyang's countryside outside of an event or an antag, and if we want to talk ludonarrative dissonance, the weirdness starts with us being allowed to go at all. Edited March 4 by Sniblet am i even coherent
Fluffy Posted March 3 Posted March 3 5 hours ago, Shimmer said: So what you offered as a 'well you have a solution!' wasn't a solution. So the tools available to say, a BC and a sec off, literally aren't enough. So what you are saying is, you require either command to go explore, so you can get access to more weapons (something rarely granted), or you need to make new weapons with science. Return to my first point; heavily discouraged. It is a solution, if it's sufficient, that we can debate about, the solution is that you need things to defend yourself and others, it might require someone to give or make more for you, and we can discuss if you should have it readily available or not from roundstart, but it is neverthless a solution. Doesn't mean it's the perfect solution, there's rarely perfect solutions. 5 hours ago, Shimmer said: So what you are proposing to my issue of the fact that there is too much fighting done on the planet, which hinders exploration in favor of a combat arena is... Give people more guns? Look- People don't go down to Konyang to fight IPCs, and those that do are delusional and don't understand what those IPCs are supposed to represent. The solution to that issue, it being, 'you shouldn't execute dozens and dozens and dozens of curable people to get a shiny rock' isn't 'well allow people to do that and give them more guns', its 'reduce the risk involved with going down to the planet so it's not a game of doom'. Allow me to repeat myself- Most people are not violence inclined, players should not be punished for playing reasonable characters. You are working for the SCC, presumably you want to continue working for the SCC, your job includes going down to said planet to do things, that necessitates you being able to defend yourself It's no different than having to defend yourself as a miner or xenoarcheologist from space carps, reavers, sharks and local fauna when you are on an asteroid working, apart that those are rampant IPCs you should not head-tap to not destroy the positronic brain The idea that it's a punishment is also absurd, I can just aswell make an argument that characters that are up to fight would be punished from what you are suggesting, that leads us nowhere as an argument point 6 hours ago, Shimmer said: A reasonable person averse to fighting would likewise also not go down to a planet knowing that fighting might occur. Going down there if it's your job, is your job, assuming you still wish to remain employed, you would go down to it because you want to remain employed. Doesn't mean you have to enjoy doing it as a character, but that's why it's supposed to be a job and not an holiday, isn't it? You will need to do things that you don't like to keep your job, especially in capitalist dystopia 2466 6 hours ago, Shimmer said: When I say violence averse, I do not mean incapable of self defence, but going down to Konyang requires you to go down to it with the mindset of 'It's CRAWLING with IPCs and I might get attacked', it's too hostile for any reasonable character to willingly go down to it unless heavily defended by others, locking out any smaller, sight seeing expeditions that BCs are able to organize. Yes, this is more or less the story of the current arc: Rampant IPCs, overrunning local security forces and people, planet wide emergency etc. etc. The story isn't "the horizon goes to Konyang for a shore leave and enjoys some months of city shore leave" at the moment, the game is reasonably representing the story as it stands right now; when and if we solve the IPC rampancy problem, you would then be able to go down alone and explore everywhere without any risk 6 hours ago, Shimmer said: Tell me, would you be willing to go down on Konyang, given how frequently attacks happen there, knowing that you have 4 fucking shots to make due with? Or are you telling me you'd want to face one of those things in melee with a machete? In character? No, me as a player? Yes, because it's extremely entertaining; go down with your lasgun, meet the locals, stick with them to help out or hire them to help you, or get someone else to come with me so we can help each other, and so on You know, RP 6 hours ago, Shimmer said: Again, you are ignoring my primary issue in that you are giving solutions to be more effective at combat, wherein my argument is that this combat is an issue to begin with. If your argument is that combat is an issue, I do not agree with it in principle, because it isn't 6 hours ago, Shimmer said: The fact that those solutions are even proposed or needed proves my point. Konyang as it stands is too much of a combat arena, and the solution to that is moving it away from being a combat arena to something else, not giving players more unique ways to gun down Konyang's civilian population, as zombie as they might be. If that is all your proposal is about, it contrasts with the current narrative of the planet situation, I also do not think it's too much of a combat arena, and various other people clearly enjoy it being this way (or more, considering the various gang and pirate violence that appears planet-side despite the presence of those IPCs to fight) Ultimately, this boils down to narrative representation, which is perfectly serviceable and would be only damaged by applying what you are proposing I am open to consider other tools to increase the entertainment value of the game, but reducing the threat and kneecapping the narrative representations isn't an acceptable way to do that to me
Fluffy Posted April 18 Posted April 18 Rampant IPCs are not present anymore, therefore this suggestion isn't applicable/relevant anymore. Locking and archiving.
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