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Unban Appeal


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BYOND Key: negativ9002

Total Ban Length: Permanent

Banning staff member's Key: riqpleydagasd

Reason for Ban: Validhunting a ninja by running at them when they had a hostage in hands. This became a permanent ban because of the extensive background you have in regards to validhunting, including a permanent ban already.

Reason for Appeal:

The ban states I was banned for validhunting. I disagree that this is what happend because of the following:

  • I believe that validhunting would be described as "intentionally targeting an antagonist within the round and attempting to interfere with them if not eliminate them from the round using available means. This often goes hand in hand with great disregard to other players involved. Typically a mindset of 'whatever it takes to stop this person'."
  • I am not under the impression that was the mindset I had during any point of that round, nor do I think my actions reflect a mindset like that.

The admin in question explained the clarifaction for the ban it in the following way and I will summarize this as I do not have the logs as they failed to save, "It is validhunting in this case because you shot someone while in touching range in a hostage situation."

To clarify on what had happend during the round that led up to this point:

 

A ninja appears on the station and is first seen in the cargo bay, this is where their first interaction with the crew is and they harm a cargo crewmember as was audible to me trough the stuttering in the common radio channel. The ninja continues to teleport around remaining unseen for most of the time without speaking. There follows a point where they are spotted within the HoP's office next to the HoP himself and blood being present on the floor beneath the HoP and an injury on their head.

The majority of security move over to the HoP's office including the HoS. The HoS initiated conversation for the first time this round with the ninja. As the ninja talked with the HoS there came a point of disagreement where the ninja threathened by claiming possession of bombs and the readiness to fight. Further time passed as the ninja came to the point of threathening to kill an officer standing outside the HoP's office.

Now the ninja teleported outside the HoP's office, at this time everyone in view including the HoS pulled out their taser, energy pistol or .45 pistol and started moving towards the ninja. I followed suit with my .45 loaded with rubber bullets in hand. A skirmish erupts outside as the ninja tries to grab someone. I was close and attempted to push the ninja away from the other crewmembers to prevent them from grabbing anyone. That failed as they managed to grab a cargo technician near the vault door.

The ninja is now facing away from me with their back towards me at point blank range. An antagonist openly stating their intent to kill another crewmember. Now holding another crewmember without wielding a weapon. Has now exposed their back to me. I took this chance to try and render them unable to hold the hostage by firing while I have a clear shot.

This quickly changed as after the first shot was fired the ninja moved at the same time. No shots were fired after however the ninja retaliated by applying an supercharged-stunbaton to my character repeatedly after which my character distanced themselves.

Communication now started again after which the ninja took his hostage and another person they ordered into the bridge and skirmished with security once again by throwing flashbangs and EMP grenades without provocation. The ninja eventually teleported out and the round continued.

 

Now I understand fully. That shooting someone with a hostage is not something you would normally do or rather should do at all. However that does not change the fact that this antagonist at the time did not have complete (aggresive grab) hold on the hostage until after the single shot was fired. I do not believe that what had happend that round can be considered validhunting in the slightest sense. I see what has happend as a unfortunate timing as it only took that one movement to go from shooting an hostile unarmed antagonist with rubber .45 rounds to shooting an unarmed hostage with rubber .45 rounds.

Again I would like to reiterate I firmly object to what happend that round to be considered validhunting as past experiences and explanations from other admins and moderators would be directly opposing this.

With that as my reasoning I would like to be unbanned as I do not see it as appropriate.

To clarify regarding something that came up during the admin help ticket:

riqpleydagasd was under the impression that I used a stun baton on the ninja after shooting which was false as indicated by my own logs which I verified at the time. This leads me to believe there may have been some confusion in the logs as this whole conversation with riqpleydagasd started after the ninja died in the armory which would be by my estimate atleast 30+ minutes of logs between the hostage event and the point the conversation started. I would not be suprised that a mistake was made while reading the logs of the people involved that would lead to such an impression.

Edited by Negativ900x
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Right, sorry for the delay.
Let's get some things straight here.
 

On 02/06/2019 at 16:37, Negativ900x said:

I believe that validhunting would be described as "intentionally targeting an antagonist within the round and attempting to interfere with them if not eliminate them from the round using available means. This often goes hand in hand with great disregard to other players involved. Typically a mindset of 'whatever it takes to stop this person'."

You're not wrong there. But it did seem like it, and I'll explain why further down.

On 02/06/2019 at 16:37, Negativ900x said:

Now I understand fully. That shooting someone with a hostage is not something you would normally do or rather should do at all. However that does not change the fact that this antagonist at the time did not have complete (aggresive grab) hold on the hostage until after the single shot was fired. I do not believe that what had happend that round can be considered validhunting in the slightest sense. I see what has happend as a unfortunate timing as it only took that one movement to go from shooting an hostile unarmed antagonist with rubber .45 rounds to shooting an unarmed hostage with rubber .45 rounds.

The issue wasn't that, shooting the hostage that is. I understand it. What the issue is, is that even after you couldn't get shots through, you were still pushing forwards against the Ninja, which already had someone at neck grab. I've spoken to people involved and, from what it seems, even AFTER you were not able to shoot the ninja because of the hostage, which you shot 3 times, you were still pushing up against them, to the point where they have to powerfist you away. Such is proven in the attached screenshot. That, is what was what was wrong. Even though they had someone at neck grab, a power fist, and possibly something in their pocket, either a knife or anything sharp, you were still going at them. This, is why I considered validhunting. Because by doing something like this, and seeing that you couldn't get through the hostage you didn't back off. The ninja could have very much simply taken out something from their pockets, and slit their throat. You posed a danger towards the hostage by doing that. And from what it seems for a very long while, since they could punch you 2 times.

 

On 02/06/2019 at 16:37, Negativ900x said:

However that does not change the fact that this antagonist at the time did not have complete (aggresive grab) hold on the hostage until after the single shot was fired.

That's not true. As far as I know the shield mechanic only works on neck grab. Proving that yes, they did have it when you fired, and when you were at melee range. 

 

On 02/06/2019 at 16:37, Negativ900x said:

riqpleydagasd was under the impression that I used a stun baton on the ninja after shooting which was false as indicated by my own logs which I verified at the time.

I didn't say that you used the stunbaton on them. I said that you went for the baton, which means taking it off your belt, and having it on your hand. 

 

On 02/06/2019 at 16:37, Negativ900x said:

No shots were fired after however the ninja retaliated by applying an supercharged-stunbaton to my character repeatedly after which my character distanced themselves.

Minor detail but still, from the logs, you didn't back off. You were backed off because of the power fist throw.

unknown.png

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First off, thank you for responding, per your response il be removing the other post if it hasn't been removed already.

 

10 minutes ago, Lonely Caravan said:

The issue wasn't that, shooting the hostage that is. I understand it. What the issue is, is that even after you couldn't get shots through, you were still pushing forwards against the Ninja, which already had someone at neck grab.

Before shooting I visually verified whether the grab was passive or aggressive/neck which for me at the time seemed to be passive as can be seen in the log entry as well. I remember not pushing forwards but standing still. As I referenced earlier I was in point blank range to the ninja prior to shooting. There is an important distinction there as that means I didn't continue pushing into them. Regarding the neck grab mechanic and using someone as a shield I am not certain of the requirement but visually for me it didn't become apparent the hostage was in a neck hold until after the shots were fired.

I agree that was quite bad to have fired rounds at someone who was apparently in a neck grab. However I must add this was not an intentional decision to do. I really did believe they were only in a passive grab as stated by the logs.

 

21 minutes ago, Lonely Caravan said:

Even though they had someone at neck grab, a power fist, and possibly something in their pocket, either a knife or anything sharp, you were still going at them. This, is why I considered validhunting. Because by doing something like this, and seeing that you couldn't get through the hostage you didn't back off. The ninja could have very much simply taken out something from their pockets, and slit their throat. You posed a danger towards the hostage by doing that. And from what it seems for a very long while, since they could punch you 2 times.

I believe the key point in this section which determines whether it should be seen as validhunting or not is this portion: "you were still going at them.". What is not apparent from the logs is that after exiting the bridge to where the hostage was I did not move from my position and didn't keep pushing into them. The events regarding the firing of the .45 rounds to my recollection did not last longer than 3-5 seconds until I realized the hostage got hit and the hostile pulled out a stun baton. I started off in melee range and stayed in melee range until choosing to walk away rather than the power fist forcing me away as I will determine next.

 

27 minutes ago, Lonely Caravan said:

Minor detail but still, from the logs, you didn't back off. You were backed off because of the power fist throw.

unknown.png

Regarding the power fist push back being an invalid point and the logs proving that I did make the decision to back off after seeing that my actions harmed the hostage rather than the suppressing the hostile can be seen in the last line where Banshee slams down the stealth shoe. This action requires melee range as well. The power fist attack 2 lines before that did not push me back as that would have made the slamming with the shoot not possible.

As a matter fact I believe that a requirement for the game to print the "slamming x down" onto someone requires them to be downed first. Which happend as a result of the power fist. I did not get pushed back I got downed, stomped on and recovered after which I backed off.

 

34 minutes ago, Lonely Caravan said:

I didn't say that you used the stunbaton on them. I said that you went for the baton, which means taking it off your belt, and having it on your hand. 

I can't be certain regarding to why I took the baton out of my belt but I can be certain that I had no intent of using it whatsoever as I had already holstered a pistol that was still loaded with rounds left in the magazine.

 

Finally I'd like to say that while your response has explained to me alot more than before as to why you are convinced my actions fell under validhunting and I can see why that was aswell. However I'd like to point out something that I hadn't pointed out yet as I thought that may have been self explanatory which was the lack of mentality that corresponds with validhunting after this encounter.

More than 30 minutes went by where there were interactions between myself and the ninja where there were very easy ways of eliminating the ninja for example the negotiations that took place between the ninja and the HoS. Several other encounters where talking to the ninja rather than taking them down immediately was used which goes against what someone who is hunting for valids would do. 15 minutes or so before the ninja died the HoS gave out a shoot on sight order after negotiations proved fruitless and that is exactly what happend with a final skirmish within the armory.

I believe this should give you some more insight into my intent during that round along with the events that happend that round and while one encounter as shown in the logs you posted does draw the image of validhunting taking place. The amount of encounters that happend that same round showing restraint and options for the HoS to negotiate and the ninja to RP in response would prove that my intent was not to hunt valids and take the ninja down at all cost but the exact opposite.

I understand the mistakes that were made in the encounter with the hostage and how my actions during that encounter worsened the situation considerably and didn't contribute to that round's RP that much or any at all, I'd like to apoligise for that happening despite the earlier warnings/bans issued.

I would still ask to be unbanned in this case as I have explained my actions and my reasoning behind them and understand the issues with my actions as you have explained to me. I hope you agree that despite this encounter with the hostage being quite poorly done. That the other encounters as a whole were played much better and that my intent that round clearly wasn't to validhunt but that, that single encounter with the hostage did cross into that territory which it shouldn't have for which il be more vigilant and less motivated to take a chance that may backfire with a loss of a crewmember's life or significant harm.

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Okay, I'm sorry again, IRL things had me away for some time.
 

I'm glad you understood at least part what was wrong. Although. You were, permabanned for validhunting before, and relatively recently. So I'll be denying this, after speaking to others and discussing. Hopefully you take this while to go ahead and think about it, and hopefully acknowledge as to why this is happening.
 

Application denied.

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