Staff Complain - youjustgotowened

[Fluffy]

BYOND Key: fluffyghost
Staff BYOND Key: youjustgotowened
Game ID: crs-ad6Y
Reason for complaint:

I was warned for lack of self preservation, for what I believe is both outside my control and only way to realistically avoid it would have been to metagame or put myself in even more danger.

After an overmap antag engagement that led to us dying, the hostile pirates boarded the ship; to make a long story short I was dead in the first engagement, spectated for a while, then respawned as an off-duty security officer, an IPC that is heavily protocolled.

I proceeded to the central hallway, then back to Medbay, where I met the Captain, asked what is the status (aka what is happening), got no reply, a vampire/hulk started brawling, helped subdue it alongside the doctors/FR and remnants of security by grabbing it (protocol states my character doesn't use force until safety is removed by an authority or it's shot/attacked with deadly weapons first), and remained in medbay for a little.

The Captain (I think) said there were hostiles upside of Medbay, I reached the Captain and stayed down with her, then someone else came and said there were noone.

Another person, the Captain and me went upstairs, checked the area, looked clear.

The Captain was hit by a stray laser shot (I must note the Captain had no armor or anything of the likes, and a pull-up carabine or similar), the other person shot through the glass.

I was on the side with the solid wall, outside of any danger for stray shots, the Captain ordered to remain there, so we did, the other person tried to open the door but had no access, I went to the door and started typing to ask if they wanted it forced open (G2s can force open doors), when the boarders opened the door from outside and bumped me out, then a firefight broke out.

Being cut out, I moved to the side, where no stray shots could have hit me (in front of the elevator, different room, with solid walls.

At this point, I was cut out: I could not go back, I would have put myself in danger of getting shot from the firefight from either side, and there's only one way out.

Additionally, I had not been informed of what was going on, there were people armed yes, but we also had Hephaestus 3rd party ships armed helping, a distress signal was sent, noone told me who was the hostiles ICly, not even by direct request to tell me what was going on, I could not have known IC that the vaurcas were hostile unless I metagamed that knowledge from either the previous life or by knowing those were pirates and not people coming and responding to the distress signal, and I could not have left the area because I would have put myself in more danger to be shot, none of the pirates showed any hostility towards me, I did not receive a single shot, they didn't aim at me, didn't try to grab me, nothing, so I just RPed not knowing who they are, asking them to identify themselves, but I had absolutely no reason to consider them a threat to myself or hostile towards me, and the only way out of there had shot exchanged, making it a higher risk than just staying there and wait.

Despite having explained to Campin the above, he decided to warn me anyways, and I believe unjustly. Going over the warn:

 

"Remember to maintain self-preservation, even as an IPC." -> I did, I moved out of the way, I did not fight, I did not tank their shots while the other people shot them

"Asking armed and overtly hostile vaurca raiders repeatedly to state identification during/after an active firefight is not a believable action for your character to be making." -> I did not know they were hostile, they were not hostile to me, showed no hostility towards my character, and I asked to those who were not in an active firefight, while they were not fighting

"You should not have been putting yourself in that position in the first place." -> I was bumped out from the door, after I was ordered to remain upstairs, after I went upstairs as it was announced that there were no hostiles, all the while noone told me ICly who the hostiles were, and we sent a distress signal a little before, for all I knew ICly, those could have been 3rd party ships coming to respond to the distress signal, the only hostile I witnessed personally was an Engineer as a hulked vampire as that character so far; I also had no way to avoid said danger anyways, I was behind a door typing, when the door was opened, someone rushed in and swapped my position to outside the room, I had no way to know it as I cannot see through solid doors, and I am not fast enough (nor have a reason ICly) to run back in, not to mention I would then be between two rifles that are shooting each other

 

I would like this warning expurged for all of the reasons above, I have maintained self-preservation according to the knowledge my character had; unless the request is to metagame, I did not had any reason to believe my existence at risk ICly, I finished the round unscattered and free, not receiving any damage whatsoever, doing all I could reasonably do with the plate that was served to me and maintaining characters

Evidence/logs/etc:

Additional remarks:

[Owen]

Alright, just to provide my perspective of events here.

I completely disagree that it would have been metagaming for you to have avoided the area where this was all occurring with your character. I also do not appreciate that you implied that I was suggesting you metagame, by using knowledge of your previous character, to know what was going on. Regardless of the situation, you had thrust yourself into the action--although you were not fighting--it is relatively simple from context clues. 

Now, I do not have the logs from the round on hand at the moment, but I know for a fact that it was continually mentioned over and over again on the radio that the Horizon was boarded by hostile intruders. 

Despite the lack of direct aggression toward your character by the raiders, they were still armed intruders (something which should have been readily apparent as they fired on the captain, and were engaged in a firefight with the crew right in front of you). Your character, being within close proximity to the conflict, continued to engage verbally with the raiders involved without prioritizing self-removal from the danger. Additionally, your actions of engaging in conversation and requesting that the raiders continually ID themself during and following the firefight were, in my view, outside the reasonable scope of your character’s self-preservation. 

It makes very little sense to me why your character would have continued to stay there, speaking with the antags.

While you mentioned not receiving IC information about the identity of the raiders, or what the situation was, and your character’s lack of direct involvement in the initial altercation, the warning addressed the actions that you were taking afterward. Which, considering the ongoing fighting, were inconsistent in my view with the expected believable behavior of characters.

I still strongly believe that this was beyond what is believable for a character to be doing, and stand by my decision to issue your warning. That is all I have to say on it for now, but will gladly clarify things if the staff member who takes this has any further questions.

[Fluffy]

"I also do not appreciate that you implied that I was suggesting you metagame, by using knowledge of your previous character, to know what was going on." -> Never did that, I said that unless I had metagamed the knowledge, I would not have a reason to consider them hostile, never said or implied that you was suggesting me to metagame

 

"Regardless of the situation, you had thrust yourself into the action--although you were not fighting--it is relatively simple from context clues." -> I was alongside the Captain, who was unarmored, in a red code alert, in a location that was declared free of hostiles, after a distress signal and the crew armory opened; I didn't "thrust myself into the action"[sic], and as a cherry on top, this would be irrelevant anyways: My character is not a frail unarmored doctor, but a former Ceres Lance 250cm tall armored G2 made of steel that was employed in the Section Five (a special section of Ceres Lance that deals with highly dangerous synthetic threats), it would have literally zero reasons to run away (assuming it can even run, which it basically cannot) from a location that have both friendly forces and the Captain itself, that was declared free of hostiles before it entered it along with everyone else, with a crew armory called and every hand on deck grab a weapon or the closest thing to it and prepare to defend, and a distress signal sent. Comparatively speaking, my character is at a lower risk of being destroyed than any other person inside that room, and fairly less than the Captain herself. If the highest authority of the ship deemed it safe to be in said location unarmored, and to also come back up after the stray shot, while ordering to remain there, my character would have no reason to run away

 

"Now, I do not have the logs from the round on hand at the moment, but I know for a fact that it was continually mentioned over and over again on the radio that the Horizon was boarded by hostile intruders." -> It was mentioned there were boarders, I do not recall anyone saying who those boarders were; Given the distress signal, which means nearby ships are coming to help, why would I, ICly, think that those at the docking arm - the location where help is supposed to come from - would be the boarders themselves, and not the support/help we called with the distress signal?

 

"Despite the lack of direct aggression toward your character by the raiders, they were still armed intruders (something which should have been readily apparent as they fired on the captain, and were engaged in a firefight with the crew right in front of you)." -> A single shot, laser, hit the Captain, then someone responded to fire, and the fire ceased. Apart that I did not see who was the shot from (because again, I was behind the solid wall, not seeing outside) I had no reason to think those were the intruders, it could have been a stray shot while they fought the intruders away, I did not had a reason to jump to the conclusion that those would have been the intruder themselves, simple as that.

 

"Your character, being within close proximity to the conflict, continued to engage verbally with the raiders involved without prioritizing self-removal from the danger. Additionally, your actions of engaging in conversation and requesting that the raiders continually ID themself during and following the firefight were, in my view, outside the reasonable scope of your character’s self-preservation. It makes very little sense to me why your character would have continued to stay there, speaking with the antags."

Spoiler

I was in the green star, the two pink/violet rhombuses were the raiders, red is the laser shots that came out of Medbay. Please show me how I would have removed myself from this location without crossing, with a slow-ass G2's speed, the area of danger for stray shots coming from inside Medbay, I invite you to.

Literally, I talked with the antags because I could not go anywhere else without either going towards their ship or entering the death lasers danger zone, or cutting the firing line of the other two raiders, that's the sense.

 

"While you mentioned not receiving IC information about the identity of the raiders, or what the situation was, and your character’s lack of direct involvement in the initial altercation, the warning addressed the actions that you were taking afterward. Which, considering the ongoing fighting, were inconsistent in my view with the expected believable behavior of characters." This is an, in my view, bad addressing of my point. If context doesn't matter, noone could be in anyone's view of a firearm for example, the rule for self preservation / avoid pain states "in harm's way without consideration" for a reason, I don't think it's there because we have to reach some words quota in the rules page, that's why Sec is allowed to fight antagonists without getting the "uhm why didn't you avoid the risk of dying by, uhm, just letting them take over the ship?" or similar absurdities.

The ongoing fight was precisely the reason why I could not retreat: I would have been in their firing line, at risk of getting stray shots. I was with the Captain because I was trying to protect the unarmored Captain after having witnessed the hulked vampire, and I remained upstairs of Medbay because I was ordered to, and I was then outside of there because the door was opened and I was bro-hugged (that's called that in the code comment, it's the swap position on help intent) out, then I moved sideway precisely to avoid getting shot when the firefight started. Seeing as I had no way to leave, I decided to talk with the antags asking who they were and to identify themselves, at which point you bwoinked me and I had to reply to you.

 

If staying out of harm's way and trying to understand if those people were the help that came to respond to the distress signal is "inconsistent in my view with the expected believable behavior of characters"[sic], in my opinion something has gone terribly wrong in how those rules are either written or interpreted.

[CampinKiller]

I will handle this

[CampinKiller]

I have a few questions/comments for now, and ask that responses are kept brief - making incredibly long-winded posts just makes it more difficult for this to be resolved.

@Owen I asked you this in the staff discord, but want you to reply here for full disclosure, the original ahelp mentioned that @Fluffy was trying to slip the antags on soap, and this doesn't appear to have been addressed in the ticket.

On 25/12/2023 at 22:58, Fluffy said:

off-duty security officer, an IPC that is heavily protocolled.

To start off, this is not relevant, considering G2s are not allowed to be security officers. They are not an off-duty officer, because they cannot be an officer.

The below information is also not relevant for the same reasoning. While your character may not be frail and unarmored, but they were certainly unarmed.

19 hours ago, Fluffy said:

My character is not a frail unarmored doctor, but a former Ceres Lance 250cm tall armored G2 made of steel that was employed in the Section Five (a special section of Ceres Lance that deals with highly dangerous synthetic threats), it would have literally zero reasons to run away

Looking at the logs, I see no indication that CL was ordered to remain in the third deck of medical by the captain. In fact, they specifically said to remain out less than 3 minutes before the gunfire started again:

[2023-12-26 03:49:31.101] crs-ad6Y SAY: *******/(Michiko Kirishima) : (Ceti Basic) <b>Stay out of third deck medical boarders!</b>

Regarding the "order" to remain, I am not sure who the captain was speaking to at this point, but it was certainly not an order to stay in the dangerous area, but to not expose oneself. They then called an incoming assault.

[2023-12-26 03:51:06.039] crs-ad6Y SAY: ********/(Michiko Kirishima) : (Ceti Basic) I took a shot for you fucking idiot, stay here dont move.

[2023-12-26 03:52:14.494] crs-ad6Y SAY: ********/(Michiko Kirishima) : (Ceti Basic) Incoming assault third deck medical.

Yet after these things is when CL begins to question the raiders as to their identification, multiple times, despite ongoing hostilities. While at that point you may have been outside medical, the question I have for you is why were you there in the first place? I am struggling to see a legitimate reason for an off-duty and unarmed G2 to have remained in the area despite orders to the contrary and the presence of hostiles. Additionally, I find it hard to believe you were not aware of the vaurca being hostile when you greeted the captain in medical, and not 2 minutes later they said this:

[2023-12-26 03:45:29.942] crs-ad6Y SAY: *********/(Michiko Kirishima) : (Ceti Basic) <b>do not engage the vaurca</b> - and for the love of god dont approach them unarmed.

While I understand the round was chaotic, as I was playing it, it seems to me there were multiple indications of who the hostiles were that were ignored.

[Owen]

17 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

@Owen I asked you this in the staff discord, but want you to reply here for full disclosure, the original ahelp mentioned that @Fluffy was trying to slip the antags on soap, and this doesn't appear to have been addressed in the ticket.

In the original ahelp, one of the concerns brought up was that they believed CL was attempting to slip one of the vaurca with a bar of soap. They mentioned that they were not 100% sure what CL's intent was there, but did state that they saw him drop soap and pick it up while right next to raiders. I planned on asking Fluffy about it after I finished talking to him about why CL was up there in the first place. With how chaotic and quickly everything was happening, it completely slipped my mind until I had already closed the ticket and issued the warning. I decided not to open another ticket since I had no real way of confirming it at that point and it would've just been a he said she said argument without me seeing it happen in the first place. 

I realize I probably could've checked CL to see if they were carrying soap at all at that point, but I unfortunately didn't think of to at the time.  

[Fluffy]

18 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

To start off, this is not relevant, considering G2s are not allowed to be security officers. They are not an off-duty officer, because they cannot be an officer.

This is a mechanical restriction until they can be reworked and reintroduced, while you cannot spawn as a security officer due to that, an offer was made in the announcement to switch to a Bishop IPC in the meantime, and you could swap back to a G2 once they are reworked and reintroduced. With all that said, I believe it reasonable to assume that my character remains an officer, even if it can't mechanically spawn in that chassis, and therefore relevant.

20 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

The below information is also not relevant for the same reasoning. While your character may not be frail and unarmored, but they were certainly unarmed.

I was not there to fight someone armed, as I have said, I witnessed a hulked vampire and helped subdue it.

22 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

Looking at the logs, I see no indication that CL was ordered to remain in the third deck of medical by the captain.

26 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

Regarding the "order" to remain, I am not sure who the captain was speaking to at this point, but it was certainly not an order to stay in the dangerous area, but to not expose oneself. They then called an incoming assault.

This is the order, you copied it:

[2023-12-26 03:51:06.039] crs-ad6Y SAY: ********/(Michiko Kirishima) : (Ceti Basic) I took a shot for you fucking idiot, stay here dont move

"Stay here don't move" is the order to remain there and not move.

 

The next message that calls the assault, is after they opened the door, when I was already bro-hugged out I suppose, I do not remember this message, I do not see it in my chat logs, and I would go out of a leg and say it probably wasn't said on comms, or at least a comms someone off-duty has access to:

[2023-12-26 03:52:14.494] crs-ad6Y SAY: ********/(Michiko Kirishima) : (Ceti Basic) Incoming assault third deck medical.

 

30 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

why were you there in the first place?

As above, I was trying to defend the Captain; this was a situation, let's not forget, where all hands on deck was called, the crew armory was opened, half the manifest was dead, and a distress signal was called.

I followed the Captain, also unarmored, thinking "if it's safe to be here for the highest authority of the vessel unarmored, it certainly is for a huge ass robot" so to say, I believed it sufficient reason to remain alongside her for the reasons I have already stated.

 

38 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

I find it hard to believe you were not aware of the vaurca being hostile when you greeted the captain in medical, and not 2 minutes later they said this:

[2023-12-26 03:45:29.942] crs-ad6Y SAY: *********/(Michiko Kirishima) : (Ceti Basic) <b>do not engage the vaurca</b> - and for the love of god dont approach them unarmed.

It looks like you have the timeline misaligned, while in retrospect this was said on comms, all this happened while I was helping subdue the hulked vampire with the Doctors in medbay:

I have therefore missed it as I was, quite unsurprisingly, busy with the hulked vampire

[CampinKiller]

2 hours ago, Fluffy said:

With all that said, I believe it reasonable to assume that my character remains an officer, even if it can't mechanically spawn in that chassis,

It is not. This would be like saying you have a dominian primary edict breaker who is on the ship, even though it's mechanically impossible to play that.

2 hours ago, Fluffy said:

This is the order, you copied it:

[2023-12-26 03:51:06.039] crs-ad6Y SAY: ********/(Michiko Kirishima) : (Ceti Basic) I took a shot for you fucking idiot, stay here dont move

"Stay here don't move" is the order to remain there and not move.

You left out the order preceding this in which you were told to not be there, yet continued to remain until almost being shot, apparently. 

2 hours ago, Fluffy said:

As above, I was trying to defend the Captain; this was a situation, let's not forget, where all hands on deck was called, the crew armory was opened, half the manifest was dead, and a distress signal was called.

I followed the Captain, also unarmored, thinking "if it's safe to be here for the highest authority of the vessel unarmored, it certainly is for a huge ass robot" so to say, I believed it sufficient reason to remain alongside her for the reasons I have already stated.

You were an off-duty, unarmed G2 that was ordered to not be there, remained until you were shot at and then told to not move. In my opinion saying that you were "ordered" to remain there after you were quite clearly told to not is bad faith, as you should not have been there. Yes, the crew armory was opened, but you were unarmed. The Captain told everyone to not be on deck 3 medical, yet you remained or otherwise went up there after the order. I will grant that perhaps you missed the message on Common, but the fact of the matter is that you had no legitimate reason to be there after being ordered not to, then inserted yourself into the situation. You are claiming that you were only there to defend the captain, yet had no method of doing so, and are simultaneously claiming that you did not know they were hostile as they stood there firing at crewmembers. Standing there and demanding the identification of armed, obviously hostile persons as an unarmed off-duty crewmember is questionable at best and a blatant disregard of self-preservation rules at worst. I will be upholding the ruling.

Locking and archiving.