New Race Variant: Shell

[Erik Tiber]

How is it even emulating an anime? Why is that supposed to be derisive? It's not like Ghost in the Shell was the first to think of this. Okay, so you can make a skin-like covering to prostheses. Why wouldn't people use that for their prostheses? Why wouldn't IPC's be able to gain a human-esque chassis? Why wouldn't people be able to get prosthetic bodies?

The restrictions are entirely arbitrary and limit roleplay while offering nothing in return. There's no reason for them to be there. So why are they there?

The new variant would include IPC's within the larger category. They're just a synthetic with a certain shape of chassis. This doesn't even have the abilities of an AI anyway, because the AI can run large portions of the station. The station is their body, the AI is the brain. It's apples and oranges.

Cyborgs have full access. They can be given advantages over shells. We can say they're more utilitarian in their design. The shells are designed for aesthetics, and for a human appearance. Of course they'd be less effective than an industrial machine with wheels or legs. We can improve cyborgs or robots.

[jackfractal]

I think that any discussion of lore regarding synthetics, both the existing ones and the ones that are being proposed here, needs to acknowledge that SS13 is, in no way, realistic.

It’s wildly inconsistent, and has had no real organization or oversight in it’s almost decade long development.

For example, are AI’s digital or biological? When they were originally created, they were, without a doubt, biological. They were a human brain in an MMI in an AI frame. If you wanted to shut them down, you smashed them, or you deconstructed them and removed the brain.

Then, at some point later, someone created IntelliCards, a device you can use to steal or deactivate the AI. The AI remains conscious once ‘carded’, and sentient, but now it’s in a flat piece of card, not a brain. That implies they’re strictly digital. But what about the brain? The brain is still there!

Did the person who created IntelliCard’s bother to reconcile this? Did anyone else?

Nope! This is because SS13 has no centralized organizational scheme, no goal, and no oversight. They just added it, despite it not making any sense, because it’s useful.

This happens everywhere, in practically every system. SS13 is not so much a game as it is a tottering pile of pet projects barely held together by badly antiquated netcode.

Things start making even less sense when we look at cyborgs. Cyborgs are, to use the Ghost in the Shell terminology, heavy cyborgs. Their only biological component is their brains. They choose a module and from that they are given various tools to do their job. Initially, you could only pick your module once, and it was supposed to be an OOC decision, not an IC decision. If you were built as a Service Cyborg, then a Service Cyborg you would remain.

But then someone added module reset boards. Plug these things into a cyborg and they can choose a new module. That’s cool, and I like it, but nobody ever bothered to work out how or why a small circuit-board can grant cyborgs the ability to spontaneously transform stun batons into surgical tools. Nor do they explain why that technology is not used elsewhere.

That’s magical enough, but they’re also magical in other ways. For example, if their module has the ability to hold a resource, like metal, glass, cable, or beer, they can generate infinite amounts of that substance while recharging with no explanation of any kind. That’s in addition to Engineering and Construction cyborgs spawning with more materials than they take to build.

These modules were never balanced of course. Engineering cyborgs can (somewhat shakily) substitute for two multi-person departments, while medical cyborgs are incapable of even assisting with any injuries more severe than mild bruises, and the “Standard” cyborg module can do practically nothing of any value.

Then there’s the thing with the hands.

Cyborg’s don’t have hands, they have tools. This almost sort of made sense at first. The ‘robot arms’ you were building in robotics were only ever used on cyborgs and the little single-purpose bot-things like Beepsky. While it didn’t make sense that you built two of them during the construction of a cyborg, while cyborgs have three module slots, it did kinda make sense, in a weird way. Cyborgs didn’t have hands because, in universe, you couldn’t build a robot hand that worked like a hand. Not very likely, in terms of the other technology available to 2D spacemen, but at least it was consistent.

Then, later, someone added robotic limbs for humans, using the same objects as you use to construct cyborgs, and these robotic limbs for humans worked exactly like regular human hands. Suddenly we have proof that the people of SS13 can build robot hands that work perfectly fine, but for some reason decided not to install them on their built-for-efficiency industrial robots.

This means that you’re building a cyborg out of limbs with functional fingers and then somehow (probably magic again) the cyborg loses all of it’s fingers and replaces them with tools that appear from nowhere.

The argument now is that you have to keep cyborgs handless because otherwise it doesn’t make sense to have any other crew. Why would you hire squishy humans and khajiit if you could have your perfectly obedient robotic slaves, that neither eat, sleep, or breathe, do all the work instead.

Which is, you know, a very good point. It doesn’t make sense. Any real company would do that in a heartbeat. We have an enormous number of examples of that kind of thing from the real world. The history of the 20th century has been, in a large way, the history of people getting replaced by robots.

Does anyone really believe that there will be janitors in thirty years? Taxi drivers? Farmers?

No, of course not. We already have robots that do these things.

Now that’s silly enough, but things get even sillier when IPC’s show up. Here are fully functional robot hands, ON ROBOTS.

So Erik, I get that you want this to happen, and that you’re really enthusiastic about the whole post-cyberpunk Eclipse Phase stuff, but arguing “Why wouldn’t people be able to get prosthetic bodies?” while logical given the apparent technology, doesn’t take into account all of the rest of the incredibly illogical nonsense that exists in the robotics department alone.

And robotics isn’t the worst. Not by far. Don’t get me started on R&D.

You’re argument is passionate, and I admire that, but it’s not really a good argument given the state of the game.

Nothing in SS13 makes sense. Not a bit of it.

A good argument would explain why Shells would notably add to the game (not the universe, the game), while not detracting from the game in any significant way.

[Nik]

I should clarify two things:

1) I did not name them shells for ghost in the shell, I named them Shell's because of a mental twitch for the name. Only later did it occur that my brain is strange.

2) I wasn't attempting to emulate a anime originally, as it feels it was put in a mildly hostile tone (albeit I could be wrong) I was actually pondering how much I fucking despise IPC for their lack of visual creativity and how little role play potential they possess , when I had began to think of science-fiction based humanoid bots. My actual original thoughts had been Persona 3 and I,Robot mixed with a healthy dose of Alien.

Further point: why the dick-fucking Christ do we pretend like anyone would actually want to be inside a god damn TV head. The point that we move towards humanoid bots is so that artificial intelligence will be a relatable being and not a terrifying engine of destruction.

I've seen at least two dozen Borgs who wanted to try for this, and gave up because they ain't even got fucking arms, let alone are considered human beings by the crew. Which is depressing.

[Guest]

Well, okay.

Then why not suggest changes for existing content rather than pushing for completely new, nonexisting content that everyone is split on/doesn't give two shits about, or worse, is completely redundant and doesn't actually treat the problem?

Updates are easier and much more productive to push through.

http://www.aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2110

This thread also exists. Please make suggestions to help flesh out IPC customization a bit more to give the devs something to go on.

[Nik]

Well, okay.

Then why not suggest changes for existing content rather than pushing for completely new, nonexisting content that everyone is split on/doesn't give two shits about, or worse, is completely redundant and doesn't actually treat the problem?

Updates are easier and much more productive to push through.

http://www.aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2110

This thread also exists. Please make suggestions to help flesh out IPC customization a bit more to give the devs something to go on.

 

Split on is a strange term when the split is 80/20 for, isn't it? It's been three against and about twenty for.

Secondarily, IPC being re-adjusted this way would ruin the IPC design by smashing up their skeletal design and box head, or require the addition of a toggle for variant bodies, which isn't worth the effort, and would involve a bunch of dumb.

Finally, IPC are based around AI, not people. They wouldn't be the same thing, and attempting to smooth them together just makes them even more confusing and far more effort then just creating a shell variant race that is only for humans.

[nanotoxin]

So, this could be an alternative to cloning right?

[Guest]

Well, okay.

Then why not suggest changes for existing content rather than pushing for completely new, nonexisting content that everyone is split on/doesn't give two shits about, or worse, is completely redundant and doesn't actually treat the problem?

Updates are easier and much more productive to push through.

http://www.aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2110

This thread also exists. Please make suggestions to help flesh out IPC customization a bit more to give the devs something to go on.

 

Split on is a strange term when the split is 80/20 for, isn't it? It's been three against and about twenty for.

Secondarily, IPC being re-adjusted this way would ruin the IPC design by smashing up their skeletal design and box head, or require the addition of a toggle for variant bodies, which isn't worth the effort, and would involve a bunch of dumb.

Finally, IPC are based around AI, not people. They wouldn't be the same thing, and attempting to smooth them together just makes them even more confusing and far more effort then just creating a shell variant race that is only for humans.

 

What is the actual problem you're attempting to address? I've not seen one IPC player complain about the lack of roleplay opportunities.

[Guest]

What is the actual problem you're attempting to address? I've not seen one IPC player complain about the lack of roleplay opportunities.

 

Consider this an official act of me whining about the lack of customization present on the species which should by all means have the most customization options available. I dont like the mandatory monitor head, I certainly do not like the two dead pixels on the back of the sprite which poke through every bit of clothing you put on it and I dont like the fact that our only available prosthetics are clunky and black.

 

If we add more robot customization we will become an Anime

 

There's a lot of character archetypes or types of RP I really, really hate. I wont state them here so I dont derail the thread but my point is, while I hate these things I aknowledge people have different (inferior) tastes, and may enjoy different (inferior) types of Arpee.

Now, you seem to hate robots and having bad taste is a-ok in my book, the fact that you as one of the people who play on the server dont want this to happen is an argument by itself, but if you want to add anything more as to why more synthetic customization will be a game ruining hitler, other than the fact that you personally dislike the idea, you're going to have to explain why more synthetic customization would be bad.

[Erik Tiber]

What is the actual problem you're attempting to address? I've not seen one IPC player complain about the lack of roleplay opportunities.

I would also like to officially complain about the lack of options for prostheses. And the lack of prosthetic bodies. I have been talking about these things for literal months. Many people can attest to this.

[Guest]

I would also like to officially complain about the lack of options for prostheses. And the lack of prosthetic bodies. I have been talking about these things for literal months. Many people can attest to this.

I would like to remind you that the amount of decent coders (No offence but the third party help we have had recently has been very rushed half complete work) People have been talking about things for years. Go look on the old forums. hundereds of ideas have not gone in because of the amount of suggestions and walls we have gained. Not every idea will be implemented and large one (like making a new species with it's own looks, organs, abilities, and disadvantages. Changing one jobs main function) take time. Then it becomes a case of time V effort = reward?

Before you 'officially complain' look at it from out side.

[Guest]

What is the actual problem you're attempting to address? I've not seen one IPC player complain about the lack of roleplay opportunities.

I would also like to officially complain about the lack of options for prostheses. And the lack of prosthetic bodies. I have been talking about these things for literal months. Many people can attest to this.

 

From a development perspective, I would rather improve upon IPCs (which are unique and have a lot of dev potential to go off of, and already exist in-game and can be tweaked with not unlike how female Taj have new hairstyles) rather than going so far as to create some Ghost of the Shell rip-off (That is a whole new race with its own code and schiesse btw) that gets their development stalled mid-way because of issues such as organ code not being finalized and pushed through.

Also, what Scopes said. This suggestion is a very tall order for something that would turn out to be something so mundane and redundant, and can just as easily be addressed with a little bit of time invested into existing content.

You want robits with a Ghost of the Shell reminiscence? Then perhaps we could suggest optional customisation for IPCs themselves.

[Nik]

The issue is that the IPC don't assist anyone who wants to roleplay a human in a robot body. A thing that is REALLY fun to roleplay. IPC are robots with no actual humanoid traits besides being bipedal.

And here's the thing - I don't like synth's as a roleplay potential, at all. I think they are the most non-entity. But I like people with synth bits. I like androids and Shell's and AI with actual emotional basis and humanoid forms attempting to be human. I don't like TV heads.

And a lot of people agree with this, because there are several IPC main players who don't even like what they are limited to, and characters who would want to be synth's if it didn't mean becoming the stations butt-slave.

That's the concern. I don't even know if I'd play this, but I know people want it. and I want to see it.

Oh, and since you've clearly been ignoring things, 1138, the Shell's are meant to be a literal theft of the IPC race code, but make a MMI explode out of them instead, but with a less shit sprite base and some actual roleplay potential.

And once again, Ghost in the Shell isn't the first version of this, or the best. The name is purely because I needed a name for a synth body shaped like a human's for human and I didn't like "Hull" or "Chasis". I wasn't even thinking about Ghost in the Shell for the third time I've said it. Shall I say it a forth.

I was inspired by Persona 3's Aigis, which lead me to think about Alien Android's and things. Stop latching onto these concepts to reiterate an argument to shut down a thread. Because you aren't being constructive, you've repeated your point like four times.

[Guest]

Oh, and since you've clearly been ignoring things, 1138, the Shell's are meant to be a literal theft of the IPC race code, but make a MMI explode out of them instead, but with a less shit sprite base and some actual roleplay potential.

You do realise that IPC code is so buggy you can get 2 or 3 types of brain from them depending on how you take it out. You asking to rip a new species from a species that's already broken, and everything has roleplay potential.

[Guest]

I was inspired by Persona 3's Aigis, which lead me to think about Alien Android's and things. Stop latching onto these concepts to reiterate an argument to shut down a thread. Because you aren't being constructive, you've repeated your point like four times.

 

Because you are not listening nor grasping the concept of what you're asking for here. If I have to drill this information into you so that you vaguely understand what I'm coming from, then so be it.

You want another new race that requires weeks, if not months, of focus and careful attention to detail to code, implement, and develop. And all for what? A fleshy in a robot chassis? Is this not what a cyborg is by definition? The only difference is that the cyborg is enslaved to a lawset.

Just because public opinion wants it, doesn't mean it should get implemented. It's redundant, and easily fixed by being creative enough to actually play pretend and defy the lore to the extent where it's fun for all parties involved.

There is your constructive criticism right there. You don't like what I say, and it's understandable why you're getting pissy.

[Nik]

I'm getting pissy? fancy that, I'm somehow upset whilst not being upset.

Moving from that, I've never argued about /the difficulty/ of it, because it's not what the concern is. I'm suggesting it because playing a flesh synth is impossible.

More importantly, what you suggested is exactly the opposite of what people want from squishy synths, being a lawed android with no god damn arms (ain't even got legs)

It's almost like trying to play one is disastrously bad as people tell you to shut up and order you around, and you get no actual roleplay out of it.

[ZipZero]

Why not just have more prosthetic options and customization?

We could have more options for mechanical parts in the character setup screen, such as all of the organs, the chest, and the head. Perhaps have them be coloured based on the body colour, as skrell prosthetics or IPCs are? You could match your skin tone, if you wanted, to disguise the fact that you have prosthetics.

I have two characters who would have an interest in this. An IPC running a human brain who is unhappy with their current chassis, and a cyborg that I'm sick of being abused by nearly everyone on the station.

[Erik Tiber]

I would also like to officially complain about the lack of options for prostheses. And the lack of prosthetic bodies. I have been talking about these things for literal months. Many people can attest to this.

I would like to remind you that the amount of decent coders (No offence but the third party help we have had recently has been very rushed half complete work) People have been talking about things for years. Go look on the old forums. hundereds of ideas have not gone in because of the amount of suggestions and walls we have gained. Not every idea will be implemented and large one (like making a new species with it's own looks, organs, abilities, and disadvantages. Changing one jobs main function) take time. Then it becomes a case of time V effort = reward?

Before you 'officially complain' look at it from out side.

I'm not gonna deny that, it's definitely work. My contention was the idea that "nobody wanted this". People do want it and people have wanted it.

I'm not gonna complain that I didn't get it before now. I never assed myself into actually making a thread for it. Now one is made, so I'm gonna just second this one.

However, Delta is wrong if he's trying to say that nobody wants this.

Why not just have more prosthetic options and customization?

We could have more options for mechanical parts in the character setup screen, such as all of the organs, the chest, and the head. Perhaps have them be coloured based on the body colour, as skrell prosthetics or IPCs are? You could match your skin tone, if you wanted, to disguise the fact that you have prosthetics.

I have two characters who would have an interest in this. An IPC running a human brain who is unhappy with their current chassis, and a cyborg that I'm sick of being abused by nearly everyone on the station.

Idea. We could make prosthetic options for the groin, chest, head, and brain. Then along with 'normal', 'amputated', and 'prosthesis', we add the option 'synthskin prosthesis'.

For the brain, we could give them options like "Organic", "MMI", and "Completely Synthetic".

What do you think? Soundscopes, what about you?

[SmileyDemon]

 

This work?

[EvilBrage]

[...] but if you want to add anything more as to why more synthetic customization will be a game ruining hitler, other than the fact that you personally dislike the idea, you're going to have to explain why more synthetic customization would be bad.

Again, if you want to reskin IPC's to look like crash test dummies? Great! Want to add little robotic cat ears because you can't get your fix of kawaii from tajarans and unathi? Wonderful. But my chief concern comes in when you get to the RP cop-out.

Why have a cyborg or AI project at all if everyone would much rather jump right into another body, free will intact? This race essentially makes AI's and cyborgs redundant, and were it not for the set of mechanical powers that come along with them, no one would choose them over the shell because being in a shell is "easier."

tl;dr Why play an AI, cyborg, or IPC when you can just pop in a race that has everything they do and more?

 

Please read my entire post before asking for something that's already there.

[Jakers457]

Because playing as the AI or Android is a completely different playstyle not only from eachother, but.from.that of a synthetic crew member. AI has complete control of the station, the cyborgs are specialised to a particular role with all the necessary equipment. While a synthetic crew member is basically just an artificial person or someone that is heavily augmented. The issue you state is pretty arbitrary seeing as if it were the case, it would already be an issue with the IPCs.

[Eliot Clef]

Because playing as the AI or Android is a completely different playstyle not only from eachother, but.from.that of a synthetic crew member. AI has complete control of the station, the cyborgs are specialised to a particular role with all the necessary equipment. While a synthetic crew member is basically just an artificial person or someone that is heavily augmented. The issue you state is pretty arbitrary seeing as if it were the case, it would already be an issue with the IPCs.

 

He has in fairness expressed a dislike of IPCs as well.

Also, holy shit Smiley, that's amazing. I like that.

[Nik]

Indeed on smiley's sprite base. I'd hit that.

And that's the real ditty here; It's fucking god awful being a synth that is under law. Being a Borg is a-kin to role playing being a friggin talking toaster. At best you might get people to amuse the idea of treating you like a human being, until they feel like grabbing your collar and telling you to be a good little bot.

And to the "no, power game, blah" argument, the IPC is significantly easier to handle in game then a human, because they can't just down drugs to fix themselves, and can't repair themselves.

That, and people in these /wouldn't feel things/