Armor Suggestions from a long time player recent HoSMain

[Kelnor]

My main gripe here is going to be Ablative vs Ballistic armor and what that does to the round. I think it's a rock paper scissors mechanic that's too powerful. (all other things being equal, armor choice hard decides the outcome.) and should really just be removed (I have some other options too.)

First, armor is bulky and hard to transport, meaning changing armor takes time, and usually happens after the standoff phase (since that's when you know what the Antags are packing.) There have been times I've ordered an assault when I know I should change armors, and we're all going to die unless the antag really really sucks, but my Command WL tells me now is the time to go, and it feels horrible.

Second, since, imo, armor choice is so impactful, both sides commanders really should avoid engagement unless they have the correct armor, this is difficult for antags (they might have spent their TC already) and it's time consuming for Security (especially without a Warden) Armor choice just eats time, and adds annoying complexity.

Third, out of all the things I have to deal with as a HoS, scouting the Antag's weapons is the least enjoyable for me, but also the most important thing (outside of commanding the actual assault) I could be coordinating officer deployment, or RP Negotiating with the Antag, instead of I'm asking officers to report their weapons and using binochs to try to scout theres.

 

The only justification I can think of for this is to have the commander scout weapons and order the correct armor in first. Then use the wrong armor to follow up to add their guns while minimizing their exposure. I feel like, while that's kind of cool, why not just let everyone participate in the assault instead of just the officers that happen to have the right set (there's only two sets of each and four officers remember.) Also, I think it makes defense a bit too easy, mercs can just put their lasers up front, and if they see ablative enter, they can fall back and let their friends with 7.62 handle it, then by the time the Ballistic armor gets in behind, the lasers just step up and blat them. I must ask, why have a difference in armor at all? Especially when there's plenty of other (more fun, and meaningful) differences between Laser and Ballistic.

 

My three suggestions:

One: Remove the distinction between armors, just make them the same, the only distinctions being Riot (for protection against the kind of weapons crew reasonably might get,) Standard, good against concealable weapons, and anti-boarding (the best armor security can have against high caliber small arms without science/mining/whatever)

Two: Close the gap a bit, I feel like winning against someone while in the wrong armor requires you to be much much better than your opponent, even to the point where the significantly less skilled player will likel8y win. I might be wrong about how significant the difference is.

Three: Give Security Carriers, and the armory plates, plates are long and wide but don't take up much space. You need a bag to carry them, but they don't' take much space. This would make it easier to change armors in the field but see below why I think we should just get rid of the distinction completely

I'm in favor one option one, since, imo, the other two don't really make sense, if we have to close the gap between the two armors, we should ask why the gap exists at all.

There's  already a huge difference in how ballistic vs energy works, I don't think enemy armor type needs to complicate the matter.

And option three, would likely result in an officer at a barricade seeing the antag pull out a laser weapon, then swapping in ablative plate, then watching them pull out a 7.62, and switching back to ballistic, then they pull out the laser... you get the idea.

Edited February 18 by Kelnor

[Kelnor]

I also think Riot/Standard/Military distinctions make more sense for escalation. We could also lock our military armor and weapons behind Red Alert or Captain access and lock out high caliber dangerous antag weapons if no command. Standard armor can be balanced to do decent (but not impervious) versus mid range pistol and 5.56 and normal antag energy rifles, you'll go down fairly easy if 5.56 hits you, but as long as your buddies pull you back you'll live.

This means military level escalation requires a Captain or Command that can take the spare or order the AI with a Command Level Vote or two Command initiating Red Alert.

For Odyssey, the ST can unlock the military armory without Command or to make it so the Command team doesn't have to steal the spare or have an AI (ICly it's a remote unlock from the SCC.)

I also just realized, military weapons shouldn't be locked behind the access, just the ammo (so officers can train with the weapon without a Captain.)

Edited February 18 by Kelnor

[Sniblet]

It’s been a bit, but last I looked the armor spec game is entirely one-sided. Uplinks only sell “heavy armor,” which is above average against everything, and uplink EVA gear has been deliberately altered so that it’s all identical in protection. Horizon can do the whole armor counterplay game, while antagonists can only choose their weapons and looks (but oh boy, can they ever).

The justifications for this were pretty flimsy (‘Horizon has an armory, the mercs do not’ - except that they do?) and broke down to “so that Horizon can always win.” It’s kind of an ugly thing to have to say, but it’s fair I think.

Armor spec makes an immense difference. You cannot kill someone in ballistic armor with a handgun. I mean that you cannot. When I say that you cannot, I mean that you can’t and it is impossible. They passively outheal the gun in the way of Kirito from Sword Art Online or The Thing from John Carpenter’s The Thing. Longarms are different, but it’s still impossible (by which I mean not possible) to blow off limbs through ballistic armor.

Edited February 19 by Sniblet

[Kelnor]

7 hours ago, Sniblet said:

and broke down to “so that Horizon can always win.” It’s kind of an ugly thing to have to say, but it’s fair I think.

Well, the antags are still playing the game with weapon choice (somewhat.) but "The Horizon can always win" isn't really true unless the HoS is willing to burn 10-20 minutes swapping armor regardless of the fact that a transfer vote is about to happen and that the Antags didn't split their TC on energy and ballistic. They probably should split their buys too from a mechanical point of view, but then that screws with their Gimmick potentially (Sol Marines rocking even a few laser rifles would raise eyebrows. Merging armors could let the Antags choose weapons based on window penetration/injury/capability/lore or at least not worry about whether they're gonna get hard countered.

And if we do really want this for, "the Horizon will always win" we should have 4 of each armor + something for the HoS preferably (even if it's just a plate for the chest carrier and a good helmet and standard limb guards? The HoS shouldn't have to worry too much about limb shots if they have 4 officers.) I caught some stray 7.62 once from across the dining room out of sight wearing standard HoS plate because i had a full team and died almost immediately. If we're going to make armor that important, I should at least have my vital organs protected.

Edited February 19 by Kelnor

[Kelnor]

I also just realized this is kinda mess up lorewise.

Invading Elyra? Good news, just wear standard ablative and you can't die unless you get hit by artillery. (Exageration)

I'm now imagining a firing line of Elyrans in Kevlar wrapped Ceramic plates standing in the open shooting ballistic armed Dominians in ablative doing the same and everyone's just fine.

Edited February 19 by Kelnor

[MattAtlas]

On 19/02/2025 at 10:47, Sniblet said:

It’s been a bit, but last I looked the armor spec game is entirely one-sided. Uplinks only sell “heavy armor,” which is above average against everything, and uplink EVA gear has been deliberately altered so that it’s all identical in protection. Horizon can do the whole armor counterplay game, while antagonists can only choose their weapons and looks (but oh boy, can they ever).

The justifications for this were pretty flimsy (‘Horizon has an armory, the mercs do not’ - except that they do?) and broke down to “so that Horizon can always win.” It’s kind of an ugly thing to have to say, but it’s fair I think.

Armor spec makes an immense difference. You cannot kill someone in ballistic armor with a handgun. I mean that you cannot. When I say that you cannot, I mean that you can’t and it is impossible. They passively outheal the gun in the way of Kirito from Sword Art Online or The Thing from John Carpenter’s The Thing. Longarms are different, but it’s still impossible (by which I mean not possible) to blow off limbs through ballistic armor.

There is absolutely no reason for the armour game to be two-sided because it'd be a trap for the antagonist. Security always has at least two longarms deployed at any given time - there are always two officers with burst rifles and two officers with laser rifles, meaning that buying ablatives or ballistics is essentially useless since you'd just get steamrolled by two other officers with the opposite gun.

Antagonists by default have access to the strongest weapons in the game which justify the existence of ballistic armor by themselves - seriously, 7.62, .50 and 357 are not calibers to be messed with, and those are all calibers accessible for something like 6 or 8 TC from the uplink, not a particularly big sum by any means. It's also entirely possible to kill someone through ballistic armour with a .50 - again, that's a handgun, can be holstered, available in the uplink for 6 TC, and its ammo costs 1 TC.

All mercenaries have to do to bypass the armour issue is buy a singular laser rifle from the uplink. If you don't do it, that's on you for not preparing. A laser rifle will absolutely murder someone in ballistic armour in like 3 shots.

[Sniblet]

14 hours ago, MattAtlas said:

There is absolutely no reason for the armour game to be two-sided because it'd be a trap for the antagonist.

I'm never a fan of "we won't let you do what you want because you wouldn't want to" arguments, especially in roleplay, but anyway...

Quote

Antagonists by default have access to the strongest weapons in the game which justify the existence of ballistic armor by themselves

True.

I invoked handguns, famously always bought but never used by any antagonist that ever faces ballistic armor, so that I could show the audience what a difference correctly specialized armor makes, and also tell a fun anecdote that involved the greatest anime of all time, Sword Art Online.