JKJudgeX

I actually like the way that genetics works on Aurora now, and some of the different codebase versions of genetics that have heavily modified it have pretty much destroyed it by including way, way too many structural enzymes for unlocking the powers to ever be anything but a happy accident in like 1/5th of rounds. Any modification I would make to it would actually make it more functional and relevant, and if people already think mild heat resistance, x-ray, and loltelekinesis are overpowered, there's nothing weaker that would be worth the time of sitting at the terminal to unlock. You can already get heat resistance by picking up a suit (or be a diona), x-ray vision comes in goggle form (or use a camera), and telekinesis is pretty tame. Hulk is powerful but so obvious and comes with drawbacks of yelling so using it in an RP setting is virtually never. So, if you want to nerf genetics, I feel like you haven't really considered what you're talking about given that in the time it takes to get those things, many other departments can do things like... let's use the other scientists for example... re-create entire other departments and subsume their abilities, create whole new A.I.s, have full access to all of chemistry, and create bombs that can destroy the whole station and teleport them where they want to blow up from telescience... but... nerf/remove the guy that can glow and see through walls after 40 minutes of work? My biggest complaint with genetics, honestly, is that heat resistance is pretty weak and the glow effect is really obnoxious. Anyway, I'll continue playing genetics without regard to people's desires to limit my character's movement around the station, and the rounds where I'm arrested for it, I'll just do the time or take the demotion. It's not that big of a deal, but I honestly think it shouldn't be done that way because it just ostracizes a crewmate for no good reason other than lol-i-get-to-bully-someone, which I believe to be a mainstay of the enjoyment of this game for a certain unsatisfied portion of the playerbase.

Heh. I thought it was funny. Our sense of humor just doesn't jive. I don't think you need to call it out as cringe-inducing and heckle it and derail a thread with it, unless your goal is specifically to just get the thread locked. I don't even think the word "rape" should come into it, since non-consensual ERP isn't necessarily "rape". That's a whole conversation though, and if you want to continue it (with others - as I'm not interested), I welcome you to create another thread and do so.

Not sure why I'm even replying to you when you said "the admins here are a joke" and rage-quit mid-round last night, but here goes. > necessity Game halts on lack of paperwork? Nope. Sorry I made a joke that you didn't appreciate. I didn't imagine that anyone from the SS13 community would actually take offense to that light, joking implication, nor that I'd be dragged into a big argument about it when it wasn't even the purpose of the thread... I will refrain from jokes in the future on your behalf. If the game wanted paperwork to be a necessity, it could have made the rubber stamp on a sheet of paper an actual requirement before the said machine would function. The CMO could be outfitted with a genetic modification activation injector, such that any genetic modifications would have to be activated by the CMO. Genetic modifications could have been made to only manifest for 5 minutes unless "stabilized" by an injection that only the CMO has access to. The CMO could have been given a Genetic Control Terminal, at which he has the ability to allow/disallow certain genetic powers which would simply make them not manifest at the DNA modification machine, or manifest an effect that clearly indicates that the power has been locked out. Those are all things that could have been done if the gameplay was meant to be that way, or "require approval" of your head for these things... which, by the way, Yesterday I played 4 rounds on Aurora in Science. I had an RD to sign for things 0 times. There was also no HoP in 3/4 of those rounds, and no captain in 2. I kept notes for this conversation. "We need more heads" was said by someone else in OOC, to which I agreed. Some things that I would suggest a CMO does in order to keep good control on his department is INSIST upon a clean SE slot being kept on the geneticist's machine, and, printing out a few injectors of it, in case the geneticist decides to self-modify, now you have a way of undoing it with a simple injection... pro-tip, 9 times out of 10, the clean SEs are in Buffer 1 or 3 on the machine, without you even requesting it. I think everything I said here about genetics and the unreasonable treatment of them stands pretty well. I think ideas such as "delete genetics" are poorly considered, and weaken the quality of the game, since genetics is useful as both a crew helping mechanism (for crews wise enough to request it), as well as a traitor-enhancing mechanic that enables interesting sci-fi storylines and capabilities... I've used a protohuman corpse for cloning damaged people a few times, I've harvested their organs, and I've masqueraded as a protohuman while I was a changeling a couple of times (which I shouldn't have ever mentioned here because it was effective). I've used the genetics advancements to help find hurt people, catch people murdering others, and as a last-ditched hulk-out and fight security tool while playing as geneticist/traitor on many occasions, and all of these were fun for most everyone involved, and did not result in the mass murder of the crew or destruction of the whole ship (I think I've been killed/subdued every time I've hulked). It makes for something awesome for Vox and traitors to steal, and the UI modification capabilities make for interesting RP storylines like customizing a nice UI for yourself or for someone else, changing your identity, or forcing someone else to look like you in an act of psycho narcissism. There's just a lot of good mad science that can happen in genetics, as well as a lot of fun forensic and beneficial upgrades. From what I can see, people really enjoy criticizing other people's playstyles, as this is the conversation that dominates much of OOC back and forth and is this thread. I find it toxic to be as controlling as some people want to be, and those people find it toxic how little control I like to relent. I think we see this in how people treat Tajarans, how I myself react to IPC players who I feel are powergamey, and so on... and it's something the Aurora community, and the SS13 community at large probably needs to work on. While balancing some things out is being discussed for some races/features, I think the discussion of entirely deleting jobs and races from the game is lore-destructive, and as someone mentioned when I half-suggested removing IPCs, wastes everyone's time, which is a good point... This is why I think the movement should be towards balance, and not removal, and I think genetics is fine in that regard, though really not fun to play if we're getting arrested for doing our job and walking to the bar for a break. If I'm going to tolerate your IPC with a shell being in my opinion overpowered and dangerous, I think you can tolerate my geneticist, who has been here for a very long time, having a couple of the powers.

It's okay, you added literally nothing to this discussion that was even remotely on topic... so, back pedal harder, please.

Tone policing, political correctness, and being offended by everything may be the "in" thing to do in your crowd, but, where I'm from, a joke's a joke and we don't play the *gasp* "offended" game. You think I'm civil and unintelligent because I made a certain joke? That really just makes you uncultured and highly pretentious, in my book, but, I didn't come here to trade lightly veiled insults. People of intellect can discern jokes from intentionally hurtful statements. Watch a stand-up routine sometime. Also, non-consensual ERP isn't even remotely "rape", so climb down off of your amazingly high horse for a minute. Further, you can't say "literally ERP/rape" when I never actually said rape. What is wrong with you people and not understanding the word "literally", and jumping to liken non-consensual ERP in a low-fidelity 2D video game to actually being as bad as something like actual "rape". Are you trying maybe just a little too hard? Maybe? I don't need to sway people into my line of thinking, btw, it's the line of thinking to which the vast majority of SS13 players from Aurora, and every other server, already prescribes... paperwork is dumb and serves no purpose when there's a request console right there with the forms, and a radio attached to everyone's head. Nobody appreciates having to walk the stations length 2-3 times in order to get that exosuit you're sitting on for no reason when the whole thing could have been handled with 2 sentences on comms, or a request on the console. I really wish there was a magical way I could pull the data for how many times a Ripley has been made and delivered to mining without paperwork vs. with paperwork. I assure you, the former would be over 90%. Same goes for almost everything else. Paperwork can also be used in a meta-way, using it to push off players you don't like, while not worrying about it for others. That's reason enough alone to forego it when there are like 4 other ways to get clearance and permission for stuff.

nope, you made a terrible analogy. I don't really see why ERP-rape has to be involved with discussing paperwork. Oh, it doesn't *have* to be. I simply found it hilarious to do so. I was making the joke that paperwork is a fetish that you're pushing on someone. Smart people got it.

Ever been to a doctor's office and been given the clipboard to fill out a medical history? how about watching a server write down your order at a resturant? What about taking a stock order for inventory? Seating charts, military dossiers, records of all sort. These are all kept in paper format. What? You may have intended this a a joke, but given the examples I posted you are saying that anyone without 100% digital conversion is a third world country? this statement is simply rude and might easily be considered offensive to some who might live in less fortunate circumstances than other larger nations. My final note here is about this. You can rebel about paperwork OOCly all you want, but as far as I'm concerned it's stricly an IC part of the game. No heads? Well paperwork likely isn't getting done. Do you have a chill captain and no DO's watching over everything? You might be able to get away without paperwork. Do you elect not to have paperwork when it's requested/required that you do? Well I'll file paperwork, to have the paperwork stamped to have the arrest warrant signed so you can go to the brig. 1) Doctor's Office: For about 10 years, my doctor's offices and nearby hospitals have all used tablets and computers on carts to record information. Again, sorry, but the future is paperless. I haven't used paper outside of a sticky note in years IRL, and this is being a fully functional adult. 2) You think I was rude? I ended my sentence with a ... indicating that it was a joke or not to be taken seriously. Will you actually address the issue at hand and stop trying to witch-hunt for a second, or, were my points so spot-on that you have no meaningful reply that justifies the use of paper and pens on a damned space station? 3) On your final note. It works like this... ICly, my characters think paperwork is outmoded and bullshit, and my characters tend to not have the highest respect for authority. While I'll bother to ask for permission to cover my ass, if I can't get it, chances are I'm going to do what it was I needed/wanted to do even without the permission, even if it puts me at risk of arrest by security. Which is fine, because I just go along with the arrest, do my 5 minutes, and go back to whatever it was I was doing. Not every character is a jobsworth, and not every character panders to jobsworths. My proposition is simple. Instead of giving someone an antiquated, poorly thought out sheet of paper to fill out with a pen so that it can be spaced when needed as part of that "paper trail", when someone stops by engineering and asks to borrow a pair of insulated gloves for 10 minutes because they are doing electropack research, type one of these three things: 1) say "I'm just a douchebag, and I like to obstruct people, and the answer is just flat out no. Aren't you glad I'm honest?" or 2) say ":e Steve wants some insulated gloves for 10 minutes for electropack research. Is that alright, CE?" or, failing those... 3) say "; Steve wants some insulated gloves for 10 minutes for electropack research. Are there any heads who object since the CE isn't present?" any of these may be followed up or preceded by say "Would you mind putting in a request over the request console?" <-- and boom, you have an unshreddable, uneditable, untrashable "paper" trail. Or, lastly, you just give him the insulated gloves and go back to actually working. All of these are valid IC ways to go about a request without being slow. Now, OOCly, my resistance to paperwork is part of my effort to cut back on the amount of Jobsworths on station by not being one, because I don't enjoy that particular style of RP. In real life, there are only a few Jobsworths in a given organization, but it's my perception that in SS13, there are far, far more. This slows things down and complicates them, and I just prefer playing the game with people who understand that while we are playing an HRP station, real time is still being wasted, and when the end-impact of what we did in that little 5 minutes here, and little 10 minutes there, could have been accomplished with radio messages and request consoles in 1/10th the time, we've done nothing but wasted time which we could have spent actually RPing instead of walking from end to end of the station a few times and dicking with paper.

this just in: being forced to do paperwork is literally rape this just in: Someone was unable to read the words "sort of thing" and tried to spin some meaningless snark but ended up looking foolish by misusing the word "literally".

1) "getting permission" is NOT paperwork. I mentioned at least 3 different, non-retarded ways to ask for permission from heads. The fact that you didn't read them speaks more about you than it does about me. Trying to wrangle my words into something unreasonable paints you pretty poorly. 2) I didn't insult "your" "target player base". I insulted people who insist on ridiculous paperwork. I "HRP" it up as much if not more than most people I encounter on this server, and I don't ask for paperwork. I'm the target audience. You just said you hate paperwork and you think you're the target audience. *boggles* 3) "Cultural Norms" ... The paperwork is not a cultural norm. It's a giant time-waste that should have been handled with the standard requests console or radio comms because those things accomplish an identical goal in about 1/50th the amount of time, and they also allow permission requests to easily percolate upwards in the event of a missing head, "Mike asked for a laser cannon from R&D but there's no RD... HoS? HoP? Captain?". 4) The lack of self awareness? hahah. Okay. Nice burn-piece, but, your lack of reading comprehension renders the rest of your attack and unnecessary disparagements meaningless. Sorry.

I've seen a feature... I think it was on paradise, where you can "threaten to push the button" with a remote signaler. If you are shot or attacked, you push the button automatically, even on stun... so, a similar feature exists.

I never said I wouldn't give it out to be used, but giving out experimental IC-ly unstable and possibly dangerous powers out like candy defies common sense. As for the other stuff, you are welcome to develop digitalized paperwork. Please, do take up coding, I'm sure it's a very easy thing to do. I mean, I live in a third world country, I'm so underdeveloped and can't code in a complicated system for request consoles. Enlighten us, ohh Great One. Find an alternative to paperwork. Edit: I like this, but am sadly aware of how hard it is to code this stuff. I am welcome to develop "digitalized" paperwork? Thanks. I'm not sure how I became the "Great One", but, I am a programmer, I have run and coded for a couple of SS13 servers, and if I wanted to make paperwork for SS13 through the request consoles, I could probably do it in a few hours. Sadly, I don't want that paperwork. Do you want to know why? It's pretty simple: The Request Console ALREADY IS THE PAPERWORK. You choose a department, message or high priority, write what you want, and then validate with your ID or use your rubber stamp, or both. It's quick. It's convenient. And it really, really beats going and getting a form and plugging in all kinds of extraneous, useless information. Also, changing the genetics stuff the way you are talking about would really ruin the job even further, so, no thanks. If you want to do paperwork with someone, because that scratches your gaming itch, that's cool, but when they don't want to, you've sort of pushed it into a non-consensual ERP sort of thing. There's absolutely no reason that the request console, or even a radio message or PDA message wouldn't have done the trick and been way more convenient. I'll never do paperwork, because I'm not a knob.

Just one minor thing to point out (besides the fact that mechs and weapons aren't given out to anyone, so this example isn't entirely true). Anyway, yes, cargo has access to Ripleys, security has access to weapons, medbay has access to chemicals and syringe guns. All of this equipment is placed under heavy restrictions, though. You see a miner messing around with a Ripley? They're probably headed for a jobban. Security messing around with weapons? Definitive jobban. I might not mind geneticists being held to the same standard under some of the rationale described here, but this would basically mean they couldn't use their powers to mess around. And the way things are, right now, powers don't really have many consistent uses apart from making funny things happen (which is arguably the entire purpose of science). Also no no no please never give all of security x-ray vision on a HRP server, antags will just get shredded with that. 1) Mechs are given out to both mining and medical all the time without paperwork. I work in science and see it happen all the time. I never said weapons were distributed, except for TO security when they request, from R&D. We make the security guys stun revolvers ALL THE TIME and don't bother with the paperwork... so, there's a bit of difference between your version of reality and how the game is actually being played on Aurora and elsewhere. "Heavy" restrictions as you mentioned are pretty light compared to, "if you're caught with your own equipment, you are arrested and threatened with being fired unless you stay in one room". That's how we should treat virii from Virology, not heat resistance or telekinesis. 2) "messing around" with a Ripley? "messing around" with weapons? I'm talking about being arrested for *having* abilities and being outside of genetics. That's not "messing around". I'm talking about equipping security and detectives with x-ray to help them find someone who is murderboning, without doing the slow paperwork process and letting them murder a couple more people. Yes, I see the "omg antags tho" whining, I play an antag all the time and it would suck if people have x-ray. The hyper-active, unchecked police-A.I.s (metagaming, bad RPing, IMO) on this server make that pretty bad already, a couple security guys having it isn't going to hurt that much more. Hell, the antag himself should be able to stop in and request it if he has a good reason. I get it, the time that geneticist walked by your office and TK'ed a tool away from you for 20 seconds was a big deal to you. It shouldn't have been. Unless he harmed you or did it every round. Also, let's talk about the power level of genetics. The only truly "powerful" thing they have access to is Hulk, and it's not even that great. The smash through glass and walls and such is powerful, but, as I said, a Ripley can do that too and be nearly bulletproof. Also, I've been careful to make exception for Hulk and am okay with it being disallowed from being handed out. Beyond that you have TK, Heat Resist, and x-ray. X-ray is the only other one that even matters, and there's already an A.I. and 500,000 cameras to look at via security terminals that can do this. Meanwhile, in science, those laser cannons, guns, bags of holding, bluespace beaker grenades, flamethrowers, toxin bombs, ED-209's, and other things that can be essentially made at will are not being mentioned as "overpowered"? The things THEY are restricted from carrying around in the hall are VASTLY MORE DESTRUCTIVE than anything geneticists can create, even Hulk. So, let's say this... Hulk... should be treated like the Laser Cannon. If you're in the hall with it, you're in deep shit. Everything else the geneticist can do is able to be distributed quickly and efficiently by request to the geneticist, whose job should carry professional authority and communication with other members of the crew, just like every. other. job. (Except for Assistant). Otherwise, my original point stands. Why would you want to work in a small, shared office (clone lab is medbay's), where everything that you create is disallowed from appearing anywhere, without you going to jail for it? It's just dumb. So... suddenly, "remove genetics"? That sounds pretty much un-fun. It's a fun job if it isn't allowed to be openly abused by security.

This. As someone who plays a captain and often deals with misuse of powers, bringing paperwork to me and making me think you are a serious scientist is enough for you to run around with powers. Otherwise, it's enough to take into account how your average hulk ends. Smashed walls, constant shouting over comms and eventual violent escalation when the person is asked to fix themselves. I swear, three out of four times a power leaves geneticist results in a breach of regulation or an violence. The powers themselves are not for station's use, unless a real emergency is in question, which is why I'll usually deny it being given out to anyone, with exception to signed test subjects. Some goes with high profile research materials, except it's harder to enforce as there are more people who are able give them out. So here's the case in point. You have a whitelisted player who is Captain openly stating that he will usually deny giving out the powers to anyone. So you have a job, that produces things in-game, that can be "legally" used pretty much never. No other job does this as their main thing, or as their only thing (unless you count cloning, which is done without the geneticist all the time.) This results in a pretty lame job. And again, I'm not saying OMG geneticists get to free-hulk everrrryyyoonne! I'm saying if I want to give a security officer or detective x-ray because he asked for it, or if I want to walk around with heat resistance because I found it and didn't feel like turning it off, and plus it's superior genetics, why would I be arrested for that? What's the IC rationale? You're annoyed that I'm glowing? That's cute, I'm annoyed that your head is a television. You don't get arrested for it. You're annoyed that I am powerful and dangerous? That's cool, your mechs and borgs and hardsuits are powerful and dangerous, too... when was the last time someone got arrested for making a Ripley to give to mining? Then why are we busting geneticists for giving out powers besides hulk? Have you noticed that I'm making an exception for hulk here, since it comes with behavioral and speech modifications, I have no problem with it being restricted to genetics lab and only on CMO/RD approval. The paperwork stuff is dumb for everything. It's a huge waste of time, and paperwork doesn't even exist at regular jobs like this anymore. It's called an e-mail, and it's called the request terminals. If you still have physical paperwork at your real job, please step forward 15 years to the year 2015, or move out of the third world country you live in.

I'm 100% in support of limiting IPC roles for gameplay balance AND RP reasons. I think their lore should be changed to make them less better than all other races at everything but drinking contests and naked spacewalking.

You'd be surprised at how aggressively coders can move if they want to. You linger on a personally fueled argument while glancing over what I proposed, which is neat, but not productive towards a reasonable end goal. The two initial changes that I outlined are super simple to implement, and I'm of mind to do it once I finish some major moving for another code project. 1) I wasn't talking about coding speed. I'm a programmer, myself, professionally and a hobbyist (with some experience in SS13 Paracode codebase). I was talking about the long process of re-balancing due to having to carefully chip away bit by bit, and test, and let the community have some feedback, and so on and so forth, because it's rare for big sweeping changes to be done all at once... plus all the gnashing of teeth when you take away someone's antag-immunities, and everyone threatening to quit due to nerfs and so on and so on as from any given big multiplayer game with "classes" that have to be rebalanced from time to time. 2) I didn't just "glance over" what you proposed, I just didn't have a reply for it because I don't think either of your two options are enough, nor would they be if combined. There just should have never been a race that requires no breathing and has no bloodstream/organs/bones that is not rule-shackled to the A.I., immobile, handless, unable to communicate, or otherwise fundamentally crippled... - and by "should have never been" I mean to be in compliance and in balance with the rest of the regularly available jobs and races. So, all I could have really said in a reply would have been "yeah man,either of those is a good start, I wish it was already in."

I've admitted this. More than once. I think this'll be the third time, in fact. But I think you're exhibiting an emotional overreaction to losing, with a far more destructive end intent. SS13 was fine after IPCs. It's only since they've gotten a little bit more popular on Aurora and expanded the group that uses them into Shells that people started complaining about them. I don't have any destructive end intent. I want the game to be balanced between players in terms of power levels of their characters to some reasonable degree. I just don't feel like IPCs belong. I think it's a little "high fantasy" for me. You know how in D&D sometimes you have the DM who lets everyone make vampires, werewolves, and dragon men, and gives out high level magic items and spells like candy? That's fun for SOME players... but it ruins the game for many others. "My Half-Orc, Half-Troll regenerates the damage and retaliates, swinging his dual two handed swords with one hand each using his innate monkey grip racial ability, yeah!" ... "I roll d20 to swing my longsword." It's not that it isn't fun because you dislike half-orc, half-trolls... it's that now suddenly your character is very dry and weak by comparison, and you begin to think things like... "Wow, this party would be better off if it were entirely comprised of Half-Orc, Half-Trolls." and then the quality of the universe comes into question, and soon after you're thinking, "Man, this D&D game would have been a lot better with that other DM, who very rarely lets anyone make special race characters and always makes them pay a fair and crippling price for the privilege." I feel like IPCs are just that, and the game would be better if they were toned way down. Yes, I want you to be able to play your character and go through all the motions of pretending to be Lt. Cmdr. Data. Go ahead. I'm really not sure why that means you need to have a character that's easily 2 or 3 times more innately robust than everyone else. If you can't grasp that, and it doesn't make sense to you, then I'd rather you just play a different character altogether, thus my comment about removing them entirely, because I realize that now they are in, whittling them down to reasonable will be a very, very long process that we'll not see the end of before we all no longer play SS13.

I've admitted this. More than once. I think this'll be the third time, in fact. But I think you're exhibiting an emotional overreaction to losing, with a far more destructive end intent. SS13 was fine after IPCs. It's only since they've gotten a little bit more popular on Aurora and expanded the group that uses them into Shells that people started complaining about them. I don't have any destructive end intent. I want the game to be balanced between players in terms of power levels of their characters to some reasonable degree. I just don't feel like IPCs belong. I think it's a little "high fantasy" for me. You know how in D&D sometimes you have the DM who lets everyone make vampires, werewolves, and dragon men, and gives out high level magic items and spells like candy? That's fun for SOME players... but it ruins the game for many others. "My Half-Orc, Half-Troll regenerates the damage and retaliates, swinging his dual two handed swords with one hand each using his innate monkey grip racial ability, yeah!" ... "I roll d20 to swing my longsword." It's not that it isn't fun because you dislike half-orc, half-trolls... it's that now suddenly your character is very dry and weak by comparison, and you begin to think things like... "Wow, this party would be better off if it were entirely comprised of Half-Orc, Half-Trolls." and then the quality of the universe comes into question, and soon after you're thinking, "Man, this D&D game would have been a lot better with that other DM, who very rarely lets anyone make special race characters and always makes them pay a fair and crippling price for the privilege." I feel like IPCs are just that, and the game would be better if they were toned way down. Yes, I want you to be able to play your character and go through all the motions of pretending to be Lt. Cmdr. Data. Go ahead. I'm really not sure why that means you need to have a character that's easily 2 or 3 times more innately robust than everyone else. If you can't grasp that, and it doesn't make sense to you, then I'd rather you just play a different character altogether, thus my comment about removing them entirely, because I realize that now they are in, whittling them down to reasonable will be a very, very long process that we'll not see the end of before we all no longer play SS13.

The thing about Chemistry? You can help science/robotics by giving them sulphuric acid if they can't or don't want to go to the research station. You can help the rest of medical, a great deal. You can help the geneticist with hyronalin. You can help hydroponics by making good fertilizer and giving it to them and no one needs to sign for that. You can help virology with mutagen, too, I think. You can make and replenish people's space cleaner and help all departments that way and the Janitor. You can exchange things with hydroponics and the bartender and chef to create more rare and interesting things. These are all just simple examples of ways that you can directly contribute and interact with various crewmembers. These are fun things, these are what SS13 is all about, especially on a Role Playing station where you want to have an opportunity to see and interact with coworkers. Sadly, there's nothing that a geneticist can do that is like any of those, except for occasionally clone someone, which the rest of the crew will do when there's no geneticist anyway. And suddenly, paperwork, and "No" and "you can't leave your office with your things"... just kinda lame when you hear that or get warned by security, and on the way back to genetics KTHUNK KTHUNK KTHUNK Ripley just walking by. Like if X-ray got into the wrong hands, dun dun dun.... but that Ripley, man, those can't cause AAAAaaaany problems . All of these things, no one signs anything for.

The thing about Chemistry? You can help science/robotics by giving them sulphuric acid if they can't or don't want to go to the research station. You can help the rest of medical, a great deal. You can help the geneticist with hyronalin. You can help hydroponics by making good fertilizer and giving it to them and no one needs to sign for that. You can help virology with mutagen, too, I think. You can make and replenish people's space cleaner and help all departments that way and the Janitor. You can exchange things with hydroponics and the bartender and chef to create more rare and interesting things. These are all just simple examples of ways that you can directly contribute and interact with various crewmembers. These are fun things, these are what SS13 is all about, especially on a Role Playing station where you want to have an opportunity to see and interact with coworkers. Sadly, there's nothing that a geneticist can do that is like any of those, except for occasionally clone someone, which the rest of the crew will do when there's no geneticist anyway. And suddenly, paperwork, and "No" and "you can't leave your office with your things"... just kinda lame when you hear that or get warned by security, and on the way back to genetics KTHUNK KTHUNK KTHUNK Ripley just walking by. Like if X-ray got into the wrong hands, dun dun dun.... but that Ripley, man, those can't cause AAAAaaaany problems . All of these things, no one signs anything for.

You are correct, given enough time a sufficiently intelligent population of sapient robots would make humans obsolete. This is a major problem we have with the IRL possibility of AI development, and a burgeoning truth in-universe. People are scared about robots replacing jobs that aren't merely menial labor anymore. With regards to this universe not being that high tech, you're simply incorrect. This was made a part of Aurora's lore some small while ago now. We have full-conversion cyborgs like Motoko Kusanagi and Data-esque androids. The Skrell had them first and discontinued production as a result of exactly the problems you're suggesting are kind of the case now. They're just waiting for the situation to blow up with humans like it did with them. I don't disbelieve you when you say, 'I think stripping these out would be better for the game.', but I do think it's significantly self-centered based on your immediate experiences, and ultimately more detrimental to a large number of players than it is helpful. This is normal. I'm not saying you're wrong to feel this way. I am saying that it tints your desires, just as my playing IPCs tints my desires. But my desire doesn't excise a large portion of the playerbase's favored character type to make things easier on a minority of active players (antags). In this regard, further debate is largely pointless. You're pretty much set in your ways, and I'm set in mine. I think you're just exhibiting emotional attachment to the race. SS13 was fine before IPCs. It worked well, it was great, the gameplay was fun a little bit more often in my opinion. I'm not saying it's ruined because of IPCs, but I'm saying with the implementation on Aurora, it's really taken a dip. Why do you think someone made this thread? Why do you think there are threads like this all the time? My statement was saying that as they are currently implemented, I'd prefer them be gone completely. I'm totally cool with them staying to be RP'ed as... with much closer to normal attributes and vulnerabilities. Too powergamey.

You are correct, given enough time a sufficiently intelligent population of sapient robots would make humans obsolete. This is a major problem we have with the IRL possibility of AI development, and a burgeoning truth in-universe. People are scared about robots replacing jobs that aren't merely menial labor anymore. With regards to this universe not being that high tech, you're simply incorrect. This was made a part of Aurora's lore some small while ago now. We have full-conversion cyborgs like Motoko Kusanagi and Data-esque androids. The Skrell had them first and discontinued production as a result of exactly the problems you're suggesting are kind of the case now. They're just waiting for the situation to blow up with humans like it did with them. I don't disbelieve you when you say, 'I think stripping these out would be better for the game.', but I do think it's significantly self-centered based on your immediate experiences, and ultimately more detrimental to a large number of players than it is helpful. This is normal. I'm not saying you're wrong to feel this way. I am saying that it tints your desires, just as my playing IPCs tints my desires. But my desire doesn't excise a large portion of the playerbase's favored character type to make things easier on a minority of active players (antags). In this regard, further debate is largely pointless. You're pretty much set in your ways, and I'm set in mine. I think you're just exhibiting emotional attachment to the race. SS13 was fine before IPCs. It worked well, it was great, the gameplay was fun a little bit more often in my opinion. I'm not saying it's ruined because of IPCs, but I'm saying with the implementation on Aurora, it's really taken a dip. Why do you think someone made this thread? Why do you think there are threads like this all the time? My statement was saying that as they are currently implemented, I'd prefer them be gone completely. I'm totally cool with them staying to be RP'ed as... with much closer to normal attributes and vulnerabilities. Too powergamey.

I like Data and Motoko Kusanagi, too. Quite a bit. That doesn't mean that I should get to play them in Space Station 13 at everyone else's expense when I show up with their super-abilities. There's nothing wrong with IPC's as a model for a character, or being synthetic for RP reasons. I enjoy that as a possibility myself... but the way that it is delivered with the IPC is just sucky and OP. I'd have no problem if there were more drawbacks and limitations to IPCs. Appeals to realism and consistency are constantly thrown in people's face in this game when they RP something a way that someone else doesn't like or think is consistent. That's every day. I get to have my input as well, and I prefer the game having a lower tech threshold that makes sending humans to research stations a sensible thing to do, since my characters are important, too, and someone making my characters pretty much obsolete sucks to me way worse than someone making your characters closer to normal should suck to you.

I like Data and Motoko Kusanagi, too. Quite a bit. That doesn't mean that I should get to play them in Space Station 13 at everyone else's expense when I show up with their super-abilities. There's nothing wrong with IPC's as a model for a character, or being synthetic for RP reasons. I enjoy that as a possibility myself... but the way that it is delivered with the IPC is just sucky and OP. I'd have no problem if there were more drawbacks and limitations to IPCs. Appeals to realism and consistency are constantly thrown in people's face in this game when they RP something a way that someone else doesn't like or think is consistent. That's every day. I get to have my input as well, and I prefer the game having a lower tech threshold that makes sending humans to research stations a sensible thing to do, since my characters are important, too, and someone making my characters pretty much obsolete sucks to me way worse than someone making your characters closer to normal should suck to you.

Cat's pretty much out of the bag on this one. There are a bunch of IPCs in Security because a lot of us got our start playing Security Cyborgs and eventually decided we wanted to play unslaved synthetics. It didn't have anything to do with them being OP, it had everything to do with us playing beep boop robots and both wanting and having the opportunity to take it farther. You'd be getting rid of some of the best people on the IPC whitelist if you denied them these roles, and the overall solutions you present strike mas a pretty spiteful. I've been one of the people in this thread who pointed out that IPCs, in light of relatively recent changes, do have a bit too much in the way of resistance to being messed up. Especially now that Robotics can reassemble them, same as a human can be cloned. While my contribution to this discussion is biased in the positive direction, I think yours is more so in a negative one, as your rant is ultimately heavily influenced from being cornered and apprehended by an IPC before you could pull out a revolver and blast him to bits. And I guess, maybe other instances of having a real hard time dealing with IPCs? I don't think it's unreasonable that maybe different race types require different approaches, and I don't think it's unreasonable that a Psychiatrist maybe doesn't have the gear to silently take down a robot when he gets cornered by one. It's more than being miffed at being busted by several times in a row with no recourse, or, not having the best access to everything and having the only targets available be IPCs that I can't quietly dispatch without major planning... It's also that they are clearly better at most jobs around the station, too. It's just an overpowered, overplayed, powergamey, valid-hunter's dream of a race, put into the code by someone who really, really likes robots and androids. I don't mind that they are there. I mind that they are there as security and command. They require extra robustness and special consideration to overcome, and we are playing a game where we frequently must overcome one another. My solutions aren't "spiteful", and I wouldn't call that a rant. I just think that this is an HRP server, and that races shouldn't be made with overpowered attributes and immunities, since we're supposed to be RPing, not comparing stats... So when your stats and immunities are so out of whack, and then there are like 5 or 6 of you on board... the "game" part of our RPG suffers in quality. I only post with hopes of making that more enjoyable. You won't find many antagonist players out there who appreciate the idea of 3 or 4 IPCs in security/command positions at the same time. The wiki even says they shouldn't play command positions. I think that's a reasonable limitation for them. I wish it was adhered to. Again, not out of spite, but just to make the game a little more fun and equitable. Also, for Lore reasons... as I feel they really make humans and borgs pretty much obsolete. Fully sentient, roaming, super artificial intelligence androids are pretty crazy high tech... with the shells, you're talking about Data from Star Trek, and this universe isn't that high tech. So it doesn't jive that way, either, and I find that troublesome... could someone have created one and it be as rare as the A.I. or as expensive or even more expensive? Sure, that makes for some cool stories, they are great sci-fi antagonists and protagonists... of course!... But like, 5+ of these guys on the station at once? Just saying it's a little much.

Cat's pretty much out of the bag on this one. There are a bunch of IPCs in Security because a lot of us got our start playing Security Cyborgs and eventually decided we wanted to play unslaved synthetics. It didn't have anything to do with them being OP, it had everything to do with us playing beep boop robots and both wanting and having the opportunity to take it farther. You'd be getting rid of some of the best people on the IPC whitelist if you denied them these roles, and the overall solutions you present strike mas a pretty spiteful. I've been one of the people in this thread who pointed out that IPCs, in light of relatively recent changes, do have a bit too much in the way of resistance to being messed up. Especially now that Robotics can reassemble them, same as a human can be cloned. While my contribution to this discussion is biased in the positive direction, I think yours is more so in a negative one, as your rant is ultimately heavily influenced from being cornered and apprehended by an IPC before you could pull out a revolver and blast him to bits. And I guess, maybe other instances of having a real hard time dealing with IPCs? I don't think it's unreasonable that maybe different race types require different approaches, and I don't think it's unreasonable that a Psychiatrist maybe doesn't have the gear to silently take down a robot when he gets cornered by one. It's more than being miffed at being busted by several times in a row with no recourse, or, not having the best access to everything and having the only targets available be IPCs that I can't quietly dispatch without major planning... It's also that they are clearly better at most jobs around the station, too. It's just an overpowered, overplayed, powergamey, valid-hunter's dream of a race, put into the code by someone who really, really likes robots and androids. I don't mind that they are there. I mind that they are there as security and command. They require extra robustness and special consideration to overcome, and we are playing a game where we frequently must overcome one another. My solutions aren't "spiteful", and I wouldn't call that a rant. I just think that this is an HRP server, and that races shouldn't be made with overpowered attributes and immunities, since we're supposed to be RPing, not comparing stats... So when your stats and immunities are so out of whack, and then there are like 5 or 6 of you on board... the "game" part of our RPG suffers in quality. I only post with hopes of making that more enjoyable. You won't find many antagonist players out there who appreciate the idea of 3 or 4 IPCs in security/command positions at the same time. The wiki even says they shouldn't play command positions. I think that's a reasonable limitation for them. I wish it was adhered to. Again, not out of spite, but just to make the game a little more fun and equitable. Also, for Lore reasons... as I feel they really make humans and borgs pretty much obsolete. Fully sentient, roaming, super artificial intelligence androids are pretty crazy high tech... with the shells, you're talking about Data from Star Trek, and this universe isn't that high tech. So it doesn't jive that way, either, and I find that troublesome... could someone have created one and it be as rare as the A.I. or as expensive or even more expensive? Sure, that makes for some cool stories, they are great sci-fi antagonists and protagonists... of course!... But like, 5+ of these guys on the station at once? Just saying it's a little much.