Those opium poppies hit way too hard!

[chaotic_idealism]

Recent changes in chemistry were to add tramarine/morphine as a painkiller that's stronger than mortaphenyl and not as strong as oxycomorphine. And, as a side effect, there is now morphine in the poppies.

My thoughts:

• Poppy pretzels just became outright narcotic! Can we instead have poppies contain a few units of perconol, so that we won't get dizzy and high from eating a few poppy seeds? That's silly! Even IRL opium poppies have to be harvested and the sap refined before you can get high from them. It would be far more realistic to get a much milder effect.
• Morphine is a real life drug, but I thought we didn't use those in chemistry. Why don't we just use Tramarine for that strength of painkiller, without adding morphine at all? If the poppies don't need it--and they don't--then I don't see a need to have morphine.
• The Tramarine recipe contains polysomnine, which is a very low-yield recipe. Chemists have to use a LOT of hydrochloric acid just to make a little bit. Of course it makes sense, for balance reasons, not to allow chemists to make polysomnine in bulk; but with Tramarine depending on it, the amounts involved are a little annoying.

[Melariara]

A few years ago, we redid the entire chemistry database so it would not have real names at all. If we're changing the above, is there a chance we can change the names of all the newly added drugs in, if they must stay in? That way, it keeps with the setting and also avoids any horrible connotations with real life drugs.

[chaotic_idealism]

37 minutes ago, Melariara said:

A few years ago, we redid the entire chemistry database so it would not have real names at all. If we're changing the above, is there a chance we can change the names of all the newly added drugs in, if they must stay in? That way, it keeps with the setting and also avoids any horrible connotations with real life drugs.

I think it's just morphine and tramarine that are new. Tramarine isn't a real-life drug, as far as I can tell, and they're functionally near-identical except that tramarine is synthetic and comes with more side effects.

I like the idea of not having real-life names. Hundreds of years in the future, why would we be using the same medications we use now?

IRL, morphine production does start with poppies; but it starts with just opium poppy sap, which isn't very strong. It has to be concentrated to make opium, and only then can you make morphine out of it. So the idea of eating a poppy flower and getting high is a little silly.

Most poppies aren't opium poppies; the sort that you harvest to get poppy bagels won't do more than give you a positive drug test and that only if you eat several bagels. So you shouldn't expect a poppy seed available in a garden seed vendor to be a source of morphine as-is.

I thought of putting perconol in the poppies instead, maybe two units or so, because the having the equivalent of an aspirin produced by a genetically modified poppy (even though the sort of poppy you grow for poppy bagels won't give you real-life pain relief) is pretty consistent with the idea of having a carrot genetically modified to produce oculine, which helps heal eye damage given that it isn't too bad. If you are a species that flies around in space and can't always get reliable deliveries, splicing relatively safe, over the counter medication into widely-available plants makes sense. Have the poppy pretzel and poppy bagel recipes remove it (let's say cooking destroys it), so that you don't eat them and get the message "You taste sickness".

Or just take the morphine out of the poppies, which is simplest, I suppose.

If you wanted to go full-on realism, the poppies would contain perconol, which could be made into mortaphenyl, which could be made into tramarine, which could be made into oxycomorphine. But ehh. Chemistry works fine as-is, really. I don't code, so I can't really insist that a coder work on it just because that's how I'd do it.

Edited November 22, 2023 by chaotic_idealism

[Melariara]

49 minutes ago, chaotic_idealism said:

I think it's just morphine and tramarine that are new. Tramarine isn't a real-life drug, as far as I can tell, and they're functionally near-identical except that tramarine is synthetic and comes with more side effects.

THe same PR that brought in morphine and tramarine also brought in heroin and cocaine, maybe others.

[Fluffy]

21 hours ago, chaotic_idealism said:

Morphine is a real life drug, but I thought we didn't use those in chemistry.

1 hour ago, Melariara said:

A few years ago, we redid the entire chemistry database so it would not have real names at all.

This is incorrect, we have real life drug names (or botchered names thereof) both in code and in lore, Dermaline (https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-12454/dermaline-dermatological-topical/details), Dexalin (https://www.drugs.com/international/dexalin.html), perconol is basically a name shift of https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-5341/percolone-oral/details, same for butazoline (https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002602.htm), oculine (https://www.xfarma.it/en/oculine-550-mg-supplement-24-tablets.html), Helmizole is basically (https://www.rxreasoner.com/drugs/helmizol), Lipozine is (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320646#takeaway), Soporific isn't exactly a specific compound but it covers all hypnotics, Thetamycin is basically (https://www.rxlist.com/terramycin-drug.htm), Oxycomorphine is basically (https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a610022.html), adrenaline and saline are well known, Lexorin is basically (https://www.myvmc.com/drugs/lexotan/), Potassium Chloride likewise is a real compound

(And that's not even listing all the reference names to star trek, warhammer and other mediums in general, because it would not be relevant)

 

Their functioning, production etc. do not need to be realistic, it's fine if they come directly from the poppies or don't do what the real life counterparts do, because [...]

1 hour ago, Melariara said:

That way, it keeps with the setting and also avoids any horrible connotations with real life drugs.

[...] it's a game, a game where we shoot, hang, delimb, drug, explode, torture, set on fire, gut, suffocate, cook and eat, and so on, other spessmen, it's not a representation of real life, nor it should be taken seriously

 

They can be renamed / their production changed or not, I am mostly indifferent either way, but this lines of argument on why they should be renamed or how they should be produced instead aren't a solid one, a game loop focused perspective should be used instead

[chaotic_idealism]

Renaming them feels right to me. We're four hundred years in the future, so why would we still be using morphine to relieve pain? Surely we'd have found something either better, cheaper, easier to produce, more profitable, less (or more) addictive.

46 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

it's a game, a game where we shoot, hang, delimb, drug, explode, torture, set on fire, gut, suffocate, cook and eat, and so on, other spessmen, it's not a representation of real life, nor it should be taken seriously

Yes, exactly, a game! Games should be fun. If it's more fun to some of us to have Tramarine instead of morphine, and Joy instead of heroin, and the rest don't mind, then why shouldn't we change the names?

For me, it's mostly an immersion thing; using morphine to help a patient with a broken leg feels as weird as it would be to have my GP tell me she needs to bleed me to re-balance my humors. But I can see how others mightn't want to be reminded of real-life addictions, which hit closer to home than being a space cannibal who makes burgers out of your crewmates. It's the same reason why people don't like killing Ian; it just hits too close to home. Sometimes the ludicrous, ridiculous, mustache-twirling evil, world-ending threats are just more fun than the mundane, tiring, painful things like drug addiction and dead dogs.

I was mostly just annoyed that poppies had been changed to get you high, but yeah, the names are actually starting to bug me now, too. Wacky, futuristic drugs and medicines make things more fun to me.

I don't see the need to change names like dexalin that aren't household words, nor things like "oculine" which are really obvious coinages that have probably been used before and will be used again. Just so long as they sound like they could be drugs used by future space travelers, instead of something awkwardly ripped out of the real world.

Edited November 23, 2023 by chaotic_idealism

[Fluffy]

1 hour ago, chaotic_idealism said:

We're four hundred years in the future, so why would we still be using morphine to relieve pain?

Why wouldn't we? Opium/morphine is pharmacodinamically effective to cover a specific use case, because its biologically effective to do that, it was used for thousands of years before (people used to chew it) [https://www.jstor.org/stable/2842564] and it will likely be used for thousands of years to come, we are aware to great lengths on the biological mechanisms of pain and the pharmacodynamics surrounding it, it's exceedingly unlikely that new drugs will completely surclass current drugs so that they would not be in use anymore, new drugs are most likely going to fill specific niches that they can fill into with better risk/reward profiles, or fields that we're unable to effectively cover currently

 

1 hour ago, chaotic_idealism said:

But I can see how others mightn't want to be reminded of real-life addictions, which hit closer to home than being a space cannibal who makes burgers out of your crewmates. It's the same reason why people don't like killing Ian; it just hits too close to home. Sometimes the ludicrous, ridiculous, mustache-twirling evil, world-ending threats are just more fun than the mundane, tiring, painful things like drug addiction and dead dogs.

The problem with this line of argument, is that it goes to no discernable end, should we remove guns? We have not one, but two actively fought wars right this moment, gun violence existed and has gone for basically forever, not to mention the laundry list of gun related crimes; should we rename broken bones, because it could remind people that they broke a bone IRL? Or remove CPR altogether, because who knows how many people have seen someone die and trying to be resuscitated with CPR unsuccessfully and they might be reminded of it?

Should we remove broken lungs with people suffocating, because it might remind players of someone they knew or in their family that suffocated and died for not being able to breath, eg. for covid-related complications?

I have seen my dad suffocate to it, and I have seen the unsuccessful CPR done, should I go ahead and wipe both things out of the game, or give them funky space names, because they could remind me and who knows how many other of that? No more "John Sol gasps x20"?

You don't receive Cardio-Pulmonary Resuscitation but Pneumo Air Injection with Hand-Assisted Rhythm now? You don't shoot a gun anymore, you use a directional high-velocity ejection device to project a metal mini-rod? You don't shock with a defibrillator, you allow an electron imbalance to equalize through a patient from a battery-powered high-capacity capacitors bank? Should we make the animals unable to be killed, because people who likes animals might be remembered that they get killed, also to make food? Rename or remove meat from the game due to that? Where's the objective, meaningfully differentiating line where this argument can't be used anymore?

 

Would it makes a difference if it's called Morphene, Morphino, Norphine or what have you? We already have Oxycomorphene, for years, and noone beats an eye, despite Oxymorphone being a real drug, an addictive narcotic drug at that that is between 8 and 10 times more powerful than morphine

Do we need to implement newspeak to avoid any possible reminder that reality exist and it can suck? I don't think so, opening the flood gates to this argument being a valid one to change or remove things might as well lead us to have the teletubbies universe of friendship and magic instead of a SS13 space dystopia, because there's no clear end on the extent to which this can be used, and puts people that don't agree with it in a though position to rebuttal against it

 

This is not to say that the name or production method shouldn't be change either, we can indeed change those if there's a good reason to, but this one, in my opinion, isn't one

[GeneralCamo]

6 hours ago, Melariara said:

A few years ago, we redid the entire chemistry database so it would not have real names at all. If we're changing the above, is there a chance we can change the names of all the newly added drugs in, if they must stay in? That way, it keeps with the setting and also avoids any horrible connotations with real life drugs.

This was explicitly rejected by Matt Atlas, who was a human lore deputy at the time, with the reasoning that they wanted an element of grittier realism w.r.t drugs and alcohol in Venus. Head staff were also fine apparently with the names. 

All of the drugs added did have proposed alternative names in response to concerns about the names, which were scrapped after discussion with developers. If the names wish to be changed again, I would advise a lore canonization app for Venus and Vysoka, the source of the lore for the names. 

 

As for opium poppies, I didn't intend for the pretzels to be medicated as such. Ideally I would prefer a different method of harvesting the chemical that isn't the seeds, but my understanding of crop code is admittedly extremely limited. I can look into the recipe and see about doing an override on the resulting reagents however. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by GeneralCamo

[chaotic_idealism]

22 minutes ago, GeneralCamo said:

As for opium poppies, I didn't intend for the pretzels to be medicated as such. Ideally I would prefer a different method of harvesting the chemical that isn't the seeds, but my understanding of crop code is admittedly extremely limited. I can look into the recipe and see about doing an override on the resulting reagents however. 

Have the poppies contain only nutriment, but mutate into opium poppies, which contain very small amounts of morphine.

[chaotic_idealism]

1 hour ago, Fluffy said:

I don't think so, opening the flood gates to this argument being a valid one to change or remove things might as well lead us to have the teletubbies universe of friendship and magic instead of a SS13 space dystopia, because there's no clear end on the extent to which this can be used, and puts people that don't agree with it in a though position to rebuttal against it

Changing the names won't make the game any less gritty. Look at Rimworld; its cocaine analogue is called Flake or Yayo (obscure slang names for cocaine, apparently), and its marijuana analogue is called smokeleaf; I have yet to hear of any of those names hindering the war crimes in the least. Or look at Fallout, with its Jet and Psycho and Med-X. Nary a Teletubby to be seen.

There's no floodgates to worry about here. Just a preference for a futuristic world with drugs named things like Med-X and Yayo rather than morphine and cocaine. Or, in SS13, hyperzine and tramarine.

It's all about the atmosphere. When you say "cocaine", you bring in all the associations we have with the stuff. You grab a chunk of the real world and bring it into the fantasy. Suddenly there's drug-sniffing dogs and celebrity parties and Sigmund Freud all over your space game. It's jarring. But you change the name just a little, you call it yayo or whatever, and it works much better. Look at the names of things, in general, the food and drinks and the other medications; they're either very generic, refer to the lore, or made up entirely. I'd like to continue with that theme, that's all.

[Fluffy]

24 minutes ago, chaotic_idealism said:

Look at Rimworld; its cocaine analogue is called Flake or Yayo (obscure slang names for cocaine, apparently), and its marijuana analogue is called smokeleaf; I have yet to hear of any of those names hindering the war crimes in the least. Or look at Fallout, with its Jet and Psycho and Med-X.

It's not only limited to hindering things to happen, but on unconscious associations; you also don't know if and how much they hindered it, because they don't have, had and likely will ever have them, they are also fundamentally different games: One is top down management (and anyone who played The Sims knows how we tend to treat those), the other is a post-apocalyptic single-player (76 excluded but basically) game, in neither you have the urgency to treat anyone else, nor you have to take multi-step treatments, you hit yourself with funny syringe and some stat goes up or you tell faceless mob 1 to go treat faceless mob 2

32 minutes ago, chaotic_idealism said:

Suddenly there's drug-sniffing dogs and celebrity parties and Sigmund Freud all over your space game.

All of that exist in lore, Venus in particular, but yes dogs likely are still used to find drugs, celebrity parties still exist and still use drugs, Freud exist because he lived before the timeline diverges, and various societies still have drug problems the same if not worse, it's a dystopia after all

And fun thing, it also works in reverse! Imagine if in this famous scene of Saving Private Ryan

Spoiler

 

The guy was asking for "nortil" (or whatever, made up name) instead, quite a bit less impactful now isn't it?

Hearing someone screaming for morphine associates the sense of urgency, the idea of dread and pain, and a constellation of emotions that was transmitted with association through literal decades of movies, books, games, documentaries and so on

Hearing something like "Mortaphenyl" only carries the association of "mix this and this to make it, reduces pain by a good amount", with hardly any phatos associated to it, "funny spessman dies, next round funny spessman is back / new spessman will arrive if it's canon" is what you associate it with at worst, which is why the one above was described as "horrible connotations with real life drugs" and "hit closer to home", and this one is not, that exactly shows that the grittyness, the perceived pathos, is indeed affected by the name and its portrayal in media or otherwise, I do not believe this is a deniable point

It's not a coincidence that calling for adrenaline or CPR feels different than calling for a fantasy drug or fantasy name procedure, adrenaline is also associated with the urgency of the emergencies that we saw in movies or otherwise, because it's part of the advanced life support (ALS) protocol, we saw it happen over and over in movies, TV series, game cinematics, read in books, etc.