Lady_of_Ravens Posted yesterday at 06:05 Posted yesterday at 06:05 (edited) BYOND Key: Lady_of_Ravens Staff BYOND Key: YouJustGotOwened Game ID: no clue, probably not important Reason for complaint: A touch over a week ago (I have been somewhat delayed in posting this) I had an unpleasant interaction with YouJustGotOwened in OOC chat. Logs and context are available below, but the gist of the matter is that I brought up a bit of Aurora history — the fact that it used to be the position of the admin in charge of the Tajara lore (HiveFleetChicken) that Tajara have live scorpions for genitals that literally fight to the death during sex — and he took exception, forbidding any further discussion/mention of the topic. Which, okay, it's shocking, sure, but mostly in an amusing, "I can't believe that was really a thing" sort of way. It certainly isn't a topic worthy of being unilaterally blacklisted. After the fact I did some checking, just to be sure, and I haven't been able to find any server rule that this topic violates. It also doesn't fall into any of the "unwritten rule" type categories (which totally should be written, btw, but that's neither here nor there). It's not divisive, or illegal, or obscene, or any of the obvious stuff. And there's certainly nothing sexually suggestive about aliens with live scorpions for genitalia. Quite the contrary, in fact, given that this bit of lore seems to have been generated for the specific purpose of being as non-erotic (one might even say anti-erotic) as possible. So why did YouJustGotOwened forbid the topic? I'm not actually sure. YouJustGotOwened's only justification was that I "do not need to be talking about taj genitalia," which is both technically correct and not an actual reason for anything. Maybe if I had pressed the issue I would have gotten an explanation that amounted to something more substantial than an obvious deflection, or maybe he would have used his authority in a punitive manner. Either way, I would expect an admin acting in their official role to do so based on a clear, well thought out, and logical rational that could be plainly articulated. That really doesn't seem to be the case here. Thus, I'm filing a complaint. Evidence/logs/etc: Here is a log of the interactions between myself and YouJustGotOwened on this topic. Quote OOC Lady_of_Ravens: Oh, here's a weird bit of nostalgia. Anyone remember the Tajara lore lead who's official position was that Tajara have live scorpions for genitals that fight to the death during sex? OOC YouJustGotOwened: We're not talking about that in OOC OOC Lady_of_Ravens: Sure, okay. I didn't mean to break any rules or anything. OOC Lady_of_Ravens: BTW, if anyone doesn't believe me, search "scorpions" in the aurora forums. OOC YouJustGotOwened: I did say not to talk about it anymore OOC YouJustGotOwened: So that does mean not to talk about it at all OOC YouJustGotOwened: OOC Lady_of_Ravens: Yeesh, okay. OOC Lady_of_Ravens: I don't get what the big deal is. OOC YouJustGotOwened: You do not need to be talking about taj genitalia in OOC, regardless of whatever history there is OOC YouJustGotOwened: Just think about it for more than a second Lady_of_Ravens: I don't want to say the wrong thing and be accused of arguing or get banned so I am just going to go for now. Was fun guys. Maybe later. For the purpose of completeness/transparency, I have also included a log of all OOC chatter during the period of this interaction. Spoiler OOC Lady_of_Ravens: Oh, here's a weird bit of nostalgia. Anyone remember the Tajara lore lead who's official position was that Tajara have live scorpions for genitals that fight to the death during sex? OOC ASmallCuteCat: w h a t OOC KingOfThePing: cool thing to read in ooc OOC TheStripes: lets never say that again. OOC Sparta9002: uhm OOC Bochka: What the fuck OOC RandomHomelessGuy: tell me more OOC KingOfThePing: love it OOC Tzui5020: Huh? OOC Lady_of_Ravens: No joke. OOC TheStripes: lets all hide ooc together OOC TonesofBones: oh boy OOC Bochka: I need my daily dose of OOC, Stripes OOC YouJustGotOwened: We're not talking about that in OOC OOC PierogiMan: furred shawty bringing the mortal kombat copy to the boing boing sesh OOC Goolies: Goolies: OOC N. Komaeda: OOC Goolies: Goolies: OOC PierogiMan: omg hi gool OOC Dessysalta: N. Komaeda: OOC Goolies: Goolies: OOC Lady_of_Ravens: Sure, okay. I didn't mean to break any rules or anything. OOC Kelnor: she hit the floor, she hit the floor, then shawty got GATALITY OOC Goolies: kisses pierogi man xxx OOC Casgam1: it's not even goolies being the weird one this time OOC Lordnesh: that's not the real Goolies. The real Goolies doesn't play SS13. OOC Goolies: IM ALLOWED TO GHOST OOC Sparta9002: that doesn't count OOC Sparta9002: stinky OOC Lordnesh: watching people from the shadow realm doesn't count as playing. OOC ASmallCuteCat: what can be put in "tail accessories" for unathi? OOC RandomHomelessGuy: nothing afaik OOC ASmallCuteCat: OOC SimpleMaroon: only tail cloths/prosthetic tails for taj currently OOC ASmallCuteCat: ah, alright OOC ASmallCuteCat: and here i was hoping i could smuggle an entire chocolate cake in my tail accessories OOC SimpleMaroon: lmao OOC Sparta9002: use tail as a third hand OOC Lordnesh: be bug and just have third hand OOC Sparta9002: b u g OOC Lady_of_Ravens: BTW, if anyone doesn't believe me, search "scorpions" in the aurora forums. OOC Casgam1: :dread: OOC YouJustGotOwened: I did say not to talk about it anymore OOC YouJustGotOwened: So that does mean not to talk about it at all OOC YouJustGotOwened: OOC SimpleMaroon: tomasa brb OOC Lady_of_Ravens: Yeesh, okay. OOC Sparta9002: bruh OOC Lady_of_Ravens: I don't get what the big deal is. OOC YouJustGotOwened: You do not need to be talking about taj genitalia in OOC, regardless of whatever history there is OOC YouJustGotOwened: Just think about it for more than a second OOC Cash7800: average ss13 player OOC CatsinHD: My burden OOC Lady_of_Ravens: I don't want to say the wrong thing and be accused of arguing or get banned so I am just going to go for now. Was fun guys. Maybe later. Additional remarks: I don't actually expect anything to be done based on a single complaint against an administrator who has been around for quite a while, but I also don't appreciate being "Owened" and see no reason to remain silent on the matter. If nothing else, this is provides a record that can be referenced later as required. Edited yesterday at 06:29 by Lady_of_Ravens Formatting.
Owen Posted yesterday at 12:26 Posted yesterday at 12:26 You were not banned for this, you were not given a warning for this, you were not given a note. You were not even bwoinked about this. You were just told to knock it off in OOC, as your logs reveal. There was nothing hostile about this either, though you still apparently do not understand that it is not appropriate to be talking about tajara genitalia in OOC (regardless of the history of the server). You were told to knock it off and then seemingly left acting like I was going to ban you for this if you stayed any longer. 6 hours ago, Lady_of_Ravens said: Additional remarks: I don't actually expect anything to be done based on a single complaint against an administrator who has been around for quite a while, but I also don't appreciate being "Owened" and see no reason to remain silent on the matter. If nothing else, this is provides a record that can be referenced later as required. I am not sure what you expect to be done here. There is no world where you're going to be allowed to discuss genitalia or sexual topics in OOC. This is not an 18+ server, and tajara sex is certainly an 18+ topic. I've got nothing else to say here until the handling staff members take the complaint. 2
CampinKiller Posted yesterday at 14:22 Posted yesterday at 14:22 Myself and @Loorey discussed this. 8 hours ago, Lady_of_Ravens said: So why did YouJustGotOwened forbid the topic? We are not an 18+ server, we do not allow the discussion of topics of a sexual nature, especially genitalia (real or fake alien), on the server. It is an obscene topic of discussion, one that I'd daresay should quite obviously not be brought up. Further, Owen did not even give you a note for this (rather generously, considering the topic of discussion), and we didn't find there to be any issue with his behavior in OOC. The reason he was telling you to not talk about it was pretty clear cut, this was not a nuanced situation at all. If there is nothing else, this will be closed in 24 hours.
Lady_of_Ravens Posted 8 hours ago Author Posted 8 hours ago Yeah, but is it actually obscene and/or 18+? Nothing I said would fall outside the range of what you might find in a biology textbook, a nature documentary, or (if you prefer a slightly more extreme example that remains below the 18+ bar) shown on an episode of Rick and Morty. Are the reproductive cycles of xenomorphs or tarantula hawks something you would consider obscene or of a "sexual nature"? What about sexual orientation, intersexed people, or other expressions of atypical sexual dimorphism? How about the use of sex-related profanity? No, seriously, I'm genuinely asking. Because while I wouldn't consider the existence or mention of any of those things to be inappropriate or obscene, I also know that there are a wide variety of cultures and values represented on the internet, and there exist people would consider most (possibly all, though I did try to include at least some items in the list that really should be safe by any standard) of them to be quite objectionable. So while you can say that it's obvious or clear cut, the truth is that it's actually not. If it was obvious, I would never have brought the subject up in the first place. Which really is what my objection here is about. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a server having a rule forbidding the discussion of anything of a "sexual nature", though some further specificity really is needed there. What isn't cool is expecting players to follow undefined rules based on the unknown cultural standards of some subset of the admin/mod population. Or well defined rules that are well known and agreed upon among the entirety of the staff but which are undisclosed and so can only be guessed at or inferred from observed judgements.
Loorey Posted 7 hours ago Posted 7 hours ago Hi. I’ll try to break this down although it’s really hard for me to understand how this is not obvious, I’ll do my best. You mentioned the lack of specifics, let me first of all quote out of our rules in regards to this; “Violence is expected in-game; this is SS13. However, avoid bringing up hateful or overly sexual topics in OOC channels.” While I will agree with you that this rule is very unspecific, it still applies here. Our rules are a general foundation of standards in the community that we uphold so we can ensure that everyone can play together without bother or exposure to things they should not be exposed to. Our rules cannot, and will not ever cover every edge case, which leaves a lot of room to argue sometimes, thus we tend to make decisions that may seem a bit less transparent at times. Regardless of that I think it’s fairly safe to say that it’s socially not normal nor acceptable to enter a public space, a public space where not everyone is an adult either, and talk about these things unprompted. Not in any case, ever, and I’ll defend this for as long as I’m a moderator here. This is not a cultural thing either, it’s simply a social standard in a majority if not all modern societies. We do not want you or anyone else to talk about these things here. Regardless of whether you agree, or not. Regardless of whether you consider it acceptable, or not. While these topics may be considered “okay” to talk about within your friend groups, you have to remember that while there may be friends of yours on the server too, it’s still a public space that is welcoming of everyone. Especially if talking in the OOC chat. Let me close this with the argument you made about these things being in a book about biology; Yes, they teach you these things at school (usually), that’s because the teacher in this case has the educational mission to prepare you for the future / your future life, where you may be confronted with such things. But they do not drag these things out of context and focus on teaching. I understand your argument, but I would say it does not at all apply here. I hope this explains our view on things, and I can almost guarantee you that our Modmin team will agree with all of this.
maxspells Posted 6 hours ago Posted 6 hours ago 3 hours ago, Lady_of_Ravens said: There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a server having a rule forbidding the discussion of anything of a "sexual nature", though some further specificity really is needed there. What isn't cool is expecting players to follow undefined rules based on the unknown cultural standards of some subset of the admin/mod population. Or well defined rules that are well known and agreed upon among the entirety of the staff but which are undisclosed and so can only be guessed at or inferred from observed judgements. One of the primary focuses on being a moderator here is making sure this server is a safe space for anyone under 18. We handle this strictly and usually come down hard on these kinds of things. I feel like being asked politely to knock it off is an extremely non-intrusive example of enforcing this rule. Attempting to springboard off being NICELY told to knock off the genitalia talk into some kind of soap box stance about our rules of "there are children on the server please don't talk about sexual things" not being clear enough for the average player makes this whole complaint feel disingenuous. If you are honestly and truthfully confused about our rules on sexual content, or are having genuine difficulty understanding what topics would be appropriate to bring up in front of children, please refrain from saying anything that might be borderline or ahelp first to check just in case before saying anything that might be borderline. A good standard that could help you would be to view the the server like the very very strict corporate workplace it is in the lore. If it might make your coworkers uncomfortable in a real life example, or get HR called on you for saying it or talking about it, you probably shouldn't talk about it here.
CampinKiller Posted 4 hours ago Posted 4 hours ago 4 hours ago, Lady_of_Ravens said: What isn't cool is expecting players to follow undefined rules based on the unknown cultural standards of some subset of the admin/mod population Let's be clear, you were the only person who didn't recognize this issue, as in your own OOC logs: Quote OOC ASmallCuteCat: w h a t OOC KingOfThePing: cool thing to read in ooc OOC TheStripes: lets never say that again. OOC Sparta9002: uhm OOC Bochka: What the fuck OOC RandomHomelessGuy: tell me more OOC KingOfThePing: love it OOC Tzui5020: Huh? OOC Lady_of_Ravens: No joke. OOC TheStripes: lets all hide ooc together OOC TonesofBones: oh boy OOC Bochka: I need my daily dose of OOC, Stripes OOC YouJustGotOwened: We're not talking about that in OOC If you're not capable of seeing the issue with basically randomly saying to a group of strangers "Hey, do you know about scorpion penises?" then I don't know what to tell you. Locking and archiving.
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