Let People Break the Law

[Fenodyree]

There is a problem right now, with not enough antagonists.

There is a rule: The primary goal of antangonists is to DRIVE A STORY AND TO GENERATE INTERACTION. Be creative when coming up with objectives, and try to do things which will be fun for others, not only yourself. Do not resort to the bare minimums of generating a story through mechanical means, either. This means: no unmotivated/not roleplayed out mass murders, etcetera. See the rules below for further clarification.

That's a good rule, in a vacuum. It means that antagonists are expected to make the game fun for everyone else. It also makes playing antag stressful. Even those good at it don't want to do it all the time.

 

In two months of playing security, I have not seen a single arrest of a non-antag, outside of adminbus.

I have also seen a lot of secret rounds, where there were no antags becuase no one wanted to take that stress, round was extended where nothing happened, people got bored and cryo'd.

There's a big emphasis in this server, on extended things being canon. Canon events, canon expeditions.

So let non-antags, break the law. Not in big ways, murder is saved for actual antags, but everything in the minor section? Let it happen, let it be canon and let the consequences also be canon.

 

I would love to arrest someone for trespass, I would love to be arrested for trespass. I wouldn't even mind an admin who sees trespass subtle messaging a security officer, or someone in the department that they feel like checking a certain room.

There's a character that constantly breaks into the kitchen? Into the security records, IC issue. If they get fired, enforce that as canon. Don't bwoink it unless it's actually powergaming.

Offship people get a lot more leeway and therefore offship roles are more fun at lowpop. This is also bad, because we want pop on the main ship. Joining as an offship role, because you can't do your job on station without breaking a rule takes an extra person off the ship.

 

Powergaming = Also know as 'playing to win'. If you're trying to complete your objectives, kill the antagonists, or 'win', at all costs and ignore RP, you may be better off somewhere else. This includes having your character unafraid of death or pain, resistant to any torture, ready to battle alone against a crowd of opponents, or, being unarmed, senselessly attacking a gun wielder or hostage taker. This also includes loading up your character with items 'just in case', for example wearing internals 'just in case' there's a hull breach or plasma leak. Or wearing a spacesuit indoors for no reason. Further, this includes using knowledge that your character would not possess: such as knowledge of changelings, the cult, syndicate, etcetera, and acting on it.

This is a good definition of what not to do, but it's being enforced well outside the text here. Anything your job isn't supposed to do is powergaming and therefore cause for administrative action and I think that's bad.

We've got skills now, check the character's skills, refine over time what the skills permit. Doing that requires that you allow skills to be used outside their job, or you should prevent customizing skills.

It should be pretty obvious over time where the system is being abused. When it's not obvious, subtle message a security officer. That's a lot more fun for everyone involved.

 

Please don't take this as an I got bwoinked and am mad about it.

I'm in euro timezone, and I'd really like actual rounds earlier, which won't happen unless people are allowed to do stuff they wouldn't do on highpop. Maybe that'd inspire someone to join as a secoff to shove the offender in the brig. I remember an old time on bay, where euro timeslot would have regular 15 person rounds and if the roboticist took the mining shuttle down and did it themselves, it was accepted, until a miner showed up.

 

Very stream of consciousness.

tl:dr, Let minor crimes be handled IC.

[Fyni]

People are allowed to break the law. We have multiple instances of it been done, one character even spent 6 months in jail after a weeks long IC investigation by two investigators (one of which was me). Our only OOC rule which prevents it is making a believable character and no self antagging. We even in the rules allow none antag canon murder in theory.

The issue isn't our rules or attitudes as admins.

It's just people are very precious with characters and too cautious to lose them. Higher level crimes can and do lead to IC consequences (character been fired or spending long times in jail) which can be tantamount to losing a character. A serious roleplayer who has invested time in a character very often doesn't want this end for them.

Edited yesterday at 00:39 by Fyni

[Fenodyree]

I have not experienced that. Any actions even close to illegal, I got told not to, with every case the laws I broke being explicitly pointed out.

So, I'm not precious about the character, if I was I'd play a more straight lace character, but I am finding that I feel compelled to be completely law abiding.

[FabianK3]

28 minutes ago, Fenodyree said:

We've got skills now, check the character's skills, refine over time what the skills permit. Doing that requires that you allow skills to be used outside their job, or you should prevent customizing skills.

I think this is important to address: We do not have skills now. Skills are very barebones, the framework was finished, almost all individual skills are still work in progress.

 

44 minutes ago, Fenodyree said:

There's a character that constantly breaks into the kitchen? Into the security records, IC issue. If they get fired, enforce that as canon. Don't bwoink it unless it's actually powergaming.

This isn't only related to powergaming. While breaking into other areas is a good way to start powergaming, there is the issue of doing somebody else's job. Skills, even when finished, won't allow you to do that.
There is a very big difference in breaking into the kitchen to steal food and breaking in to play cook, even if you have the skill for that. The latter is no longer just an IC issue. It may not be powergaming, but it is still not okay.

The issue with trespassing is, that it usually either falls into doing somebody else's job or the start of powergaming. I can see how that may give the perspective things like it are forbidden.

 

We had IC offenses and consequences like drug dealing, constant insults, slander, stealing or other by IC regulations covered actions. Breaking the law is possible and happens.

[greenjoe]

1 hour ago, Fenodyree said:

IC issue. If they get fired, enforce that as canon.

This has happened in the past. Characters who have been arrested many times might eventually be fired by CCIA.

[Fenodyree]

Okay, I'll be specific about the case that crystalized this thought.

I'm playing a weapons scientist, and OOCly, I've done all the modweapons stuff there is to do, no one else joined research this round, it's extended, R&D's done, there's no one for me to bounce off of.

So I think, skills are in! Apparently they set the quality of things you make in the construction menu, I've got high mechanical engineering, improvised guns are a thing, I'll do that, then go over to security and ask to have some ammo and shoot it. Then come up with some science explenation for why this is advancing research.

I look at the recipy and see that making an improvised gun needs wood. OOCly, I know that you can get wood from tower cap spores, and I assume that as that's a weird mushroom only xenobotany has them. And hey, another skill I took, I've got trained gardening, that's enough to grow some mushrooms.

So I break into xenobotany, steal an axe and some towercap spores to grow. Am I doing xenobotany? I'd argue not, I haven't touched the gene machines, or the special spawns.

I have just committed petty theft and trespass in character. If I'd been caught, I'd have been an indignant scientist upset at these officers interfering in what's clearly so minor it doesn't need their attention, and OOCly I'd have been enjoying it, even if I ended with a permenant record mark. Maybe the Captain would need to be called to put my in my place!

 

What did happen, is I get a bwoink, warned not to do another departments job and told not to steal a hatchet and then I leave the round immediately feeling bad.

I then find out post round that the public garden has tower cap spores and I could have just gone there. Now I feel bad for raising a fuss about it and that I the player, am the idiot.

If the Captain had been called and told me that, I'd have been an idiot in character, it'd have been roleplay, and I'd have ENJOYED being dumb.

 

No one else gets to have roleplay if administrators step in, it's the full stop, you broke the rules, end what you are doing.

As long as what's being done isn't actively harming someone else's enjoyment (like a xenobotanist showing up and going wtf, all my plants are grown I have nothing to do), I really think it should be handled ICly.

Edited yesterday at 01:49 by Fenodyree

[maxspells]

These rules are in place to make sure everyone is participating and that all roles are important and needed. Had you tried to interact with other people or departments to get what you needed, this likely wouldn't have been an issue. Intent is important when enforcing rules, and your intent was "I need to get this thing, I'm going to break in and get the thing by myself instead of roleplaying with others to get the thing" which is the crux of the issue and the heart of the rule ie powergaming.

As you put it yourself, had you simply asked someone about where to get wood, they likely would have pointed you to the garden, or even another place you could source wood from. (Like the bookshelves in the library, the chairs and tables in the cafe, etc)

[Girdio]

 I'm a little confused as to what the suggestion is, to be honest. It feels like it's "give more OOC leeway to people to commit crimes," and as others mentioned it happens! We've even had the BSSB involved before. I'm leaving it at that, to repeat what everyone else is said.

From your example, I can't entirely understand why your character would have done that to begin with. Obviously everyone has moments where afterwards they go "my character wouldn't have said/done that," but this kinda feels like your character doing something on OOC knowledge (which you mention). Why would your character be fine breaking into a workplace, and get negative marks on their record over this? 

I get where you're coming from, having more non-antag criminal behavior would be fun! At the same time, like Fyni mentioned, the reason you don't see it all that often is mainly people not wanting to lose characters (however that may be). That's the issue with a character building up a huge arrest record. It becomes less "oh that rascal" and more "why aren't you fired?"

You mention trespassing as something minor (which sure, ICly it is), but I can't see the SCC wanting to keep someone KNOWN for breaking into places around. "How long until they break into something critical?"

Sure, the SCC may employ really shady characters, but as long as they're not breaking regulations they're not screwing over the SCC. The same can't be said for Johnny, after he runs off from his job to get drunk, and gets arrested every shift.

Edited 23 hours ago by Girdio

[Fenodyree]

6 hours ago, Girdio said:

Why would your character be fine breaking into a workplace, and get negative marks on their record over this? 

Because they don't consider it important. Because not everyone follows the rules. Because they could and didn't think they'd get in trouble. Because it was the only way they knew.

There are loads of IC reasons. Real people get in trouble all the time! I'm not arguing there shouldn't be consequence, just that the first consequences should be IC.

If your character does get a huge arrest record then... they should get fired! In character! If they continue to play the character after that, then staff shoud step in.

SCC doesn't want to keep someone known for repeatedly breaking into places around and has enforcement on ship to deal with it in the short term.

Except, if staff step on it immediately (the first time, in this case), there will never be a repeat record Security won't get to have fun, the investigator won't get to keep a canon case file on a serial troublemaker. Your head of staff won't get to pull you into an IA meeting. Even someone who doesn't care if they lose their character will not do it.

 

6 hours ago, maxspells said:

"I need to get this thing, I'm going to break in and get the thing by myself instead of roleplaying with others to get the thing" which is the crux of the issue and the heart of the rule ie powergaming.

Which is a problem, if it's the norm and not the exception. The very first line, Playing to Win, is the bit that matters. If a players actions shut down an antag, that's bad. If its being done explicitly to avoid roleplay, that's bad. If it's being done when there's someone who's job is explicitly to do the thing you're breaking into do, that's bad.

There's obviously a point it becomes not okay, but that point isn't the first time it happens. Not on a low pop round, where there isn't someone in the department. Not when everything done was well within skillset. Not when no one was actually upset by the action.

 

Intent is important, the intent was to engage in a niche system, do something outside the norm and then get people involved in it.

 

Lets spin out three examples.

1: Exactly what happened. I get stopped immediately, nothing at all happens, for anyone.

2: I do know the garden grows wood, I go and grow it, I go take the result to security and we shoot it for a bit, playing with the new system. This is fine.

3: I don't know, I break in, a mod sees this and subtle messages security that a patrol over there feels like a good idea. I get in trouble and make a fuss, now the investigator has to prove exactly what I did. Someone points out they can be grown in the garden, everyone laughs in LOOC, a fine gets paid, then we go shoot the gun which might explode. I get a little note in the records about the fine which persists between rounds.

 

Which of these three examples would you prefer to be playing your security officer in?

 

In case one, you've turned sub-optimal play into no play.

In case two, this is the platonic ideal if no one ever makes a mistake.

In case three, you've turned sub-optimal play into things to do, for multiple people and enforced the rule without the person involved even knowing.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if the rules were enforced using IC systems? Aurora can do it, unlike most RP servers, as the examples people have given make clear. Most servers can't do that, it's a strength, clearly.

Checking someone hard OOC the first time, should be reserved for when their actions have upset someone. Had there been a xenobotanist, who ahelped, I'd deserve bwoinks.

 

I don't want to get bogged down in defending myself, if the line is drawn in the sand and I stepped over it, sorry.

But the line shouldn't be drawn exactly at that spot.

It should be a wiggly line, with security officers, IA and heads of staff guarding the other side of it, with admins standing a little further back with their very big sticks for when that's not enough.

The first recourse shouldn't be an OOC one, when IC is more fun for EVERYONE, including the person breaking the rule.

Edited 17 hours ago by Fenodyree

[Fyni]

Right. I'm going to straight up say what I said before, again, because you seem to have missed the point. And I am going to spell it out more clearly.

You are allowed to play a criminal character. You are allowed to break regs.

Everything you're saying "could" and "should" happen, HAS happened. From extended drugs investigations and jail time, to a deluge of petty crimes leading to a firing. CCIA literally have nearly 300 cases in the past 5 years of IC policing IC issues - very often criminal activity - it's kind of their job. I'm not even going to mention the perhaps thousands of canon arrest records which don't reach the CCIA. Just because you've not seen it, does not mean it does not happen.

 

What this thread is about, it seems, is you are unhappy with been bwoinked for what the mod team reasonably agrees is minor powergaming.

There is a line between playing a criminal character and breaking the IC rules. Breaking into areas you don't have access to, to gather materials you don't have access to, using skills outside of your job role (note these rules have not changed. Is your character a telescientist or a weapons scientist again?) "just becase" is the issue. And I note I added the word minor above - this is not something you were issued any punishment over, just talked to over.

 

So what crimes can I commit?

I cannot provide an exhaustive list - I am merely going down the regs and pointing out ones I think are fun. so here is a few examples.

Spoiler

Minor

• Petty theft. Taking things from other people lockers, or that they leave on a table.
• Slander. Pretty obvious.
• Vandalism. Again, pretty obvious.
• Illegal Search. Security is not immune to canon reg breaking.

Medium

• Failure to execute an order.
• Assault.
• Organizing a Breakout.
• Mistreat of Prisoners
• Contraband - see my above notes. People have gone to IC jail over this. And yes, people were interviewed about smuggling drugs to an offship criminal gang.

High

• Mutiny. Please note, we have a canon mutiny which lead to many firing and borgings. All canon.
• Murder. Yes, you're allowed to canonically murder someone in an extended round.
• Corporate Espionage. This one is esaily done accidentally right now, with top secret info flying around.

I wrote it on some of those, but these are all permissable. There is a reason people joke about Suvek "Warcriminal" Tokash. It's not something he did in an antag round, but something which happened canonically, with serious consequences.

The difference is, all of this must be done with serious roleplay intent and with a character set up for it. If John Sol, doctor, not an antag, ran into the bar and started trying to kill someone, we'd bwoink them. If John Xanu bwoinked us first, said "John Biesel and I have been fueding for months. We've been talking OOC and we think the freud justifies a murder. Here is a brief summary of months of IC canon antagonism between the two, also you can ask their player they're up for it. Can we do an IC murder?" we might allow it.

We as modmins are not here to be your enemy, to enforce arbitrary rules. We're here to ensure everyone has as much fun equally as possible. As Maxspell said, we have to ensure foremost that other people are not having their roleplay and mechanical oppertunities missed. In the xenobotany case, a more roleplay forward way would have been to approach an engineer, maybe offer them a bribe to help you get the item. It create a roleplay situation, brings people directly in, lets the engineer do their job.

I rambled a bit myself but I'm going to end this post with

Don't be afraid to bwoink us first and ask / talk things over. You'll find we can be permissive, or offer alternative options for what you want. This is a surefire way to avoid been bwoinked over something you're doing, if that is something you are worried about.

Edited 14 hours ago by Fyni

[maxspells]

2 hours ago, Fenodyree said:

There's obviously a point it becomes not okay, but that point isn't the first time it happens. Not on a low pop round, where there isn't someone in the department. Not when everything done was well within skillset. Not when no one was actually upset by the action.

2 hours ago, Fenodyree said:

But the line shouldn't be drawn exactly at that spot.

It should be a wiggly line

Rules exist to pick up where systems fail. In a roleplay video game with infinite combinations of possibilities it is impossible for us to draw a line in the sand for every combination of circumstances that may or may not come up. It's up to the moderation team to handle these on a case by case basis.

The line is wiggly, and in my opinion and the opinions of the moderation team involved, you stepped over it. Which is fine and it's not a big deal. Still, we are here to enforce a standard and quality of roleplay, and it falls apart if we just let people do whatever without stepping in and rely on CCIA to handle everything. Not everyone is going to agree with where the lines are and it's fine, we get it. We understand the line is wiggly which is why you likely weren't noted or banned or given an official warning, as context matters. Intent matters.

Will hacking be against the rules when the new skills system is finished? Depends on the context, but the intention of skillpoints was never to allow people to sidestep roleplay or the reliance on interdepartmental cooperation.

[Fenodyree]

1 hour ago, Fyni said:

Using skills outside of your job role (note these rules have not changed. Is your character a telescientist or a weapons scientist again?)

This is thoughroughly mean spirited considering both are Scientist jobs, which you've just stated are job skills and the rules havent changed. Forgive me for playing with all the things in my department. Want me to make a new character for every different facet of the job? I wonder why there are so few science players.

I've made every possible effort for this NOT to be confrontational before this, reached out privately and got asked to post it publicly. So thanks for that, moving on.

 

I shouldn't have given a real example. That's been latched onto and your taking this as me being defensive.

In fact all this has accomplished is derailing the main point and had you reiterate what I already knew. If this was an administrative complaint, it'd be a complaint!

I'll quote me, admitting fault so we can ignore it.

I am guilty of powergaming.

 

13 hours ago, Fenodyree said:

Please don't take this as an I got bwoinked and am mad about it.

3 hours ago, Fenodyree said:

I don't want to get bogged down in defending myself, if the line is drawn in the sand and I stepped over it, sorry.

 

You have tools, that aren't a bwoink.

Your whole position, is that actions should make and require roleplay.

 

1 hour ago, maxspells said:

We are here to enforce a standard and quality of roleplay, and it falls apart if we just let people do whatever without stepping in and rely on CCIA to handle everything.

I firmly agree with the first part and nearly completely with the second part.

You do however have a resource that you should use, the players in the round. CCIA does not have to handle everything.

There are security players, command players, who would love to have things to do.

Is subtle messaging a security player to go check out a place OOC in IC? Yes.

So is a bwoink, an OOC action that affects what's happening IC.

 

If it's not severe enough for an admin note, and no one's ahelping don't bwoink. Mention it to someone in round.

You have prevented prevented the undesired behavior, involved multiple people and leave better feelings all around.

If someone's response to that is poor, bwoink away. You'll learn plenty about the situation just from watching thier response IC.

 

That's the suggestion, which I already regret making.

Edited 13 hours ago by Fenodyree

[maxspells]

1 hour ago, Fenodyree said:

I shouldn't have given a real example. That's been latched onto and your taking this as me being defensive.

We are simply using this example and explaining the reason why it's behavior that we need to step in for. We don't want to encourage or permit people to sidestep roleplay or other departments and players in order to get what they want.
 

1 hour ago, Fenodyree said:

 

If it's not severe enough for an admin note, and no one's ahelping don't bwoink. Mention it to someone in round.

If we handle it this way, then it would make the behavior feel like it's something we want to encourage/permit albeit it with possible IC consequences. We do not want to encourage this behavior in the context you provided, so it was handled OOCly. You disagree, and we understand that so we can agree to disagree on it, but pretty much everyone from a moderation background and the players in the thread have all unanimously agreed with where the line has and is. We are not attacking you, we get it it's a complicated game and it's hard to learn where the lines are.

The reason it's not severe enough for an admin note, is purely because we want to allow a lot of breathing room for players to get a feel for these things as they are learning, and players who refuse to acknowledge the lines, or repeatedly step over them despite being talked to about it, then we would absolutely escalate it further.

You are bringing up a potential rules change and a culture change, which isn't a bad thing. We're not attacking you about it, but in the examples you gave, giving players leniency to bend the rules in those aspects are not something we are probably going to entertain for the sake of server health.

 

1 hour ago, Fenodyree said:

Forgive me for playing with all the things in my department. Want me to make a new character for every different facet of the job? I wonder why there are so few science players.

Also want to note that science is not unique in this, this has been the standard for every department. Physicians cannot do surgery, investigators cannot arrest, engineers cannot set up atmospherics, hanger techs cannot go mining, etc. The correct answer is, yes. You should make new characters for each facet of the job.

[Fyni]

47 minutes ago, Fenodyree said:

If it's not severe enough for an admin note, and no one's ahelping don't bwoink. Mention it to someone in round.

If server rules are broken, we are obliged to bwoink people. Bwoink is the most minor possible action from us - not even a punishment - but one we need to do. Even if no further action is taken, it lets a player know they over stepped. This is done with the best possible intention - to allow a player to grow. My own past has plenty of these mistakes, and the careful explaination of what I did wrong by the admins of that time helped me grow as a player too. The lines is admitedly very hazy, and it's via small corrections like this that I myself was able to develop like I have. For minor ones, we even let it play out IC still.

Without the example which actually happened which you want us to ignore, I'm not sure what this thread, "let people break the law", is for? You've created made up hypotheticals while ignoring the hundreds of real examples of us allowing people to IC break the law and for IC security to deal with it. It's even happened once this past week, though you may not have been around to see it.

I'll leave this thread with the two points I said already but you seemed to have ignored.

We already do allow characters to break IC laws. It's happened a lot including MAJOR regulation breaks.

Doing so should be done with the best of roleplay intentions. You are not allowed to break the rules to accomplish these. If in doubt, ahelp to ask. We really don't mind. We are usually permissive with good reason, or can provide recommendations on alternatives.