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[Denied] GhostInSpace Detective Ban Appeal

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BYOND Key: GhostInSpace

Total Ban Length: Unknown. Indefinite?

Banning staff member's Key: TishinaStalker

Reason of Ban: ridiculous escalation of force, logging without discussion

Reason for Appeal: My character had an LTL weapon deployed against him and was physically assaulted (grappled, thrown) by another member of the security team and the acting HoS oked it. He was attacked for being in an area he's allowed to be in (based on his security access and his training) and the reason for the attack was that the other character found my character to be a dumb, annoying prick.

I try to play a believable, well-rounded character as per the rules and not a Mary Sue: Gage is 36 years old, a former vice police officer (dealing with junkies and pimps) prior to making detective, but traded in that badge for a cushier and better paying job working for Nanotrasen security. He's recently divorced, and a depressed alcoholic (meaning that I try to have him get a drink whenever he's on shift, either that or he's dealing with a hangover). Basically he's a hardboiled detective who doesn't like to be flexed with.

I do not believe there was any metagaming involved, nor powergaming. I have a tolerance for silliness that is pretty high. I even enjoy silliness to some extent. Gage has engaged in a minor brawl with a bartender for questioning his manlyness, trespassed in the bar multiple times to get his sweet sweet whiskey, and even vented the firing range and almost himself into space one time (accidentally). He has a fixation on detective movies that might be considered a little excessive for someone who is actually a detective, and is inexplicably attracted to Skrell, browsing Skrell pornographic sites when work is slow, which is constantly. When he's on the job or outside the firing range, he rarely pulls out his gun because dead bodies is not a good way to close cases and he didn't get into private security so that he could see MOAR ACTION than he did as an actual police officer.

Does a CSI have the authority to throw a Detective out of the evidence lab, on the basis that said Detective is "not very bright" and "an annoying prick"? I don't know. Does the CSI have the authority to throw a Detective out of their evidence lab simply on the basis that it's 'their lab'? I don't know. Are members of security allowed to physically accost each other if they're OKed by the HoS? I don't know. I'm new to this game.

I do know that the Detective profession has default access to the evidence lab and that none of the CSI's equipment is stored in a locked cabinet (like the Detective's gun, which I notice the CSI doesn't have access to?), and that the Detective spawns with evidence bags, which (to me) implies that collecting evidence factors somehow into the Detective's job. I play this game under the impression that if my character has access to a certain part of the station, they're allowed to be in that part of the station if their reason for being there is plausible (checking security camera footage, medical records, and security records, or experimenting with CSI tools, or prepping the CSI kit in the unlikely event a crime needs to be investigated and the CSI's not on duty, for example). I also play Gage as trained both as a detective and as a forensic investigator- his department within Security is called N.T.I.B., Nanotrasen Investigations Bureau. Kind of like those FBI agents that wear dark blue coats, carry forensics kits, but still have a gun on their hip. (Only when Gage is acting as Detective does he carry the gun though. If he's acting specifically as the forensic investigator then he will obviously be unarmed. Obviously being part of the N.T.I.B. isn't something that garners Gage any undeserved respect or extra authority! It's merely an aspect of his backstory that I like, and an accomplishment in his history that was significant to him.).

Is it within the realm of plausibility that one coworker could have such a degree of animosity towards another coworker that they would use a Flash on them, physically pick them up off the ground, and hurl them bodily out of their office (and then throw a plate at their head)? Yes, I'm willing to accept that. I imagine it's even in the realm of plausibility that said coworker's boss even approves of the action because the other coworker is being a real shit. If these things are within the realm of plausibility, you have to acknowledge that it's also within the realm of plausibility that the party that was grappled and thrown may just be like, "Wait a second I don't have to put up with this crap.", whip out their .38 revolver and try to put a bullet in their coworker's head? Was Gage aiming to kill? Yes. Gage was literally trying to murder the other member of security. It wasn't because his 'prized pen was stolen'. I could've tackled the situation differently, like for example I could've had Gage go WAAAH to the HoS, HOS HOS THE CSI IS BEING MEAN TO ME, but Gage is really not that kind of character. On a more realistic level, I could've had him walk back into the evidence lab and hold up the CSI at gunpoint and demand an apology for that rudeness. But, in that particular moment, I figured if he's going to do something that makes him look like a total unhinged psychopath (demanding an apology from the CSI at gunpoint) then he might as well go full tilt (shoot the CSI in the head).

I don't want to be the dumbass who has to say "in the real world" because that's just dumb, but I do need to point out: In the real world, if you don't like your coworkers, you aren't allowed to use weapons against them or throw them around like a rag doll even if your boss says it's cool. (At least, in none of the jobs I've ever had!). In the real world, you sometimes might have to share an office (or a lab) with a person who's guts you hate. It is the nature of the working world.

I am not trying to cause problems or be a rules lawyer or whatever. I just want to point out:

Fellow member of Security insulted Gage twice (2x insulting an officer on duty? Gage normally lets insults between Security members slide, especially if they're directed at him.)

Fellow member of Security flashed a coworker (Deployed an LTL weapon against a non-hostile crewmember)

Fellow member of Security physically picks up and throws coworker out of the lab (Minor assault and battery? Unwanted physical contact at least. I'm not getting to technical here. Throwing the plate at him was a nice touch.)

This all occurred on a "Go for it." from the HoS.

I will point out that Gage was warned by the CSI that if they didn't leave the evidence lab immediately, they would be physically removed, and Gage ignored that warning (I did this on purpose of course), so I don't mind the CSI flashing and tossing my guy out of the lab. I will point out that I am a new player- I have only been playing for little under a month -and even I am aware that there are different ways to move another character around without resorting to flashing, grappling, and throwing. You can literally pull people, or change your Intent from Help to one of the hostile intents and shove people around. Why did the CSI choose to immediately resort to weapon use and assault and battery of another crewmember (and departmental colleague) rather than, for example, grabbing him by the collar of his jacket and dragging his ass out of the lab? Or repeatedly shoving him out of the lab? Hell, if the CSI wanted Gage out of the lab that bad they could've literally taken his hat off his head and thrown it out the door (his hat is very important to him).

Yeah, I did leave the round abruptly after my character got Robusted. I am not a very Robust player so I try to have my characters avoid doing things that are overly Robust. It was 2:00 AM my timezone. I had to wake up at 8:00 AM. My character had just had their head blown clean off with their own gun. I guess you could call it a "ragequit"? Flipping my keyboard up at my monitor? Honestly I was just like 'Huh, well that was really weird and ridiculous. It's late. Better call it a night.' If I gave the impression that I was upset or that my feelings were hurt, I didn't mean to convey that. It is of course, just a game. I am not the kind of player to go "Oh nooooo, my precious character got killed!" or sit in OOC going "BULLSHIT THAT WAS FUCKING BULLSHIT". If you see one of my characters (not me) screaming "This is bullshit! This is fucking bullshit!" please understand that is their (the character's) current opinion on IC events.

I do want to bring up some complaints I had about the situation. Am I allowed to do this? I don't know. I feel like I am allowed to considering the situation was apparently severe enough to warrant a jobban.

The character who was playing as the CSI had a referential/famous/joke name.

The character who was playing as the CSI ignored a gunshot wound directly to the face, and continued running around the evidence lab. (Avoid pain?)

The character who was playing as the CSI rushed directly at an armed gunman. (Avoid pain? It specifically says 'Continue to run at someone after being shot multiple times.' Gage only shot the CSI once, though, it was in the head and at a very short distance.)

The character who was playing as the CSI, after directly rushing at and flashing an armed gunman while under fire, picked up the (now unarmed) suspect's gun and proceeded to shoot the (again, unarmed and subdued suspect) three times in the head at point blank range, rather than calling for backup, attempting to secure a chokehold, or get cuffs on the suspect. (Killing in self defense is NOT preferred?)

I know that I have slipped up and broken the rules myself sometimes. (I think I used "robust" ICly a couple times, and some other stuff) But I think in this particular case, my character's actions were within reason. I wasn't trying to gank the character and I wasn't acting out of pure meanness.

I don't know why I wasted so much time making my case here. I didn't even get to do one round tonight. I wasted my entire evening on this nonsense. Hopefully the necessary parties find it satisfactory.

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Right, after reading all that, I'd just like to point out the main thing that got you a ban:

You were treated with non-lethal force. What was your response? Draw a revolver loaded with .38 LETHAL rounds and unload them into the CSI's head over a tiny, frankly extremely absurd, dispute between the two of you. Tell me how all of that tells you "Time to murder my coworker without consulting administration at all" because I highly doubt you had a perfectly sane, rational excuse for that.

Now, that being said. The main cause for job bans from detective is horrid abuse of your weapon. Want to use it on an armed suspect that's fleeing and you have no other choice BUT to fight? You betcha that's fine. Firing on your co-worker because they kicked you out of their lab? Nope. Job banned.

This isn't an issue that stating "I'm new to the game" will get you out of. This is an issue of using common sense and complete and total lack of knowing the rules. Why?


On a more realistic level, I could've had him walk back into the evidence lab and hold up the CSI at gunpoint and demand an apology for that rudeness. But, in that particular moment, I figured if he's going to do something that makes him look like a total unhinged psychopath (demanding an apology from the CSI at gunpoint) then he might as well go full tilt (shoot the CSI in the head).


Lemme state the following:


Characters must be believable, and well-rounded. No insane or psychotic characters.


If you think that a normal, sane person will pull someone at gunpoint for an apology, then you are horribly mistaken. You made mistakes. You broke the rules. You got punished for it. What are we going to do about that?

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In the future, before taking such a drastic course of violent action, I'll ask a question over adminhelp. If I still think it's in character even after getting a "NO." then I'll Pray for forgiveness before and afterwards and maybe the Gods will have mercy.

Is it necessary to ask permission before I change intent to Harm?

EDIT: I was in the process of writing up a huge, multi-part post with diagrams that explained why I didn't need to be banned from detective, but I scrapped it because I didn't want to sound like a hostile know-it-all.

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Derp, thread didn't show up for me under my unread posts until Doom sent it to me.

See, one issue. If you get a no, but you still do it anyway, then expect a ban because mercy doesn't apply when you deliberately go against orders. Second off, I mean, if you want to. Not necessary unless you're going to do something like blow somebody's head off because they forced you out of their work area.

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Honestly, I don't have that great a desire to play the Detective profession or even the character that I played the Detective profession in. So far I have found each of the professions, and each of my characters entertaining and enjoyable to play.

My dispute is a matter of principle to me because the ban has been placed on my username rather than the character that took the action. If the ban had been placed on Gage Marshall the character I could understand that decision because it would mean an IC repercussion for my character's actions, for example he was deemed too erratic to wield a firearm or kicked out of the department. I even made it clear that I was willing to say that Gage was dead, and that his actions were deemed so vile that Nanotrasen simply refused to clone him (or if they cloned him, immediately fired him) and I could simply make a new Detective character. The fact that the ban is on my account I find slightly upsetting because it tells me you think I'm incapable of playing an armed character without resorting to inappropriate violence.

I asked you (and by you I don't mean just yourself but the server's administration ((though I did ask you, TishinaStalker, personally over Byond messenger [after you contacted me first]))) about the potential for getting unbanned and I was told that it was not possible to discuss the matter through in-game means, I had to appeal on the forums. I asked if it was possible to make a new Detective character and you told me that I couldn't, and that if I attempted to circumvent my ban by using a new login the ban would be server wide. I asked if it was possible to earn access to the job again through IC actions, and I was told that if I attempted to have my character talk to the HoP to get his job back, I'd be server banned.

Personally, I think a disgraced Detective begging the HoP (or the HoS) for their gun and badge back (and getting categorically denied) would be a pretty fun scene, but that's just my opinion. Now, I really like Space Station 13. I really like playing the Detective. I don't like the game or the profession enough to bother to register a new account just to be able to play the Detective immediately.

In regards to your accusation that I made a psychotic and / or insane character I simply say no, I didn't. Gage Marshall isn't psychotic or insane. He doesn't sit at his desk thinking about the best place to plant a bomb in the brig. He doesn't contemplate ways to murder his fellow security team and station coworkers. I didn't have him start that round thinking "Today I'm going to shoot one of my coworkers." and I didn't go into that round thinking "This round I'm going to murder a fool for no reason." If Gage Marshall was psychotic or insane I simply could've had him pick up the hatchet from Hydroponics (any of the times he has worked there) and go to town on the first person he saw (and get Robusted immediately because, again, my combat skills are poor). I don't have him take actions like these because he is not a psychopath and he's not insane. He's got issues, sure, but under normal circumstances he wont shoot a coworker in the face.

Getting blinded by an LTL weapon, grappled, and physically thrown by a coworker is not normal circumstances. My character was in a messed up situation and I chose to have him react poorly. However, I wasn't the one who chose to elevate a situation from Green intent and just talking to Yellow intent, nonlethal weapons, and physical violence. That was a choice that the other player made, which I responded to by elevating to Red intent, lethal weapon use, and physical violence. I'm not saying it was heroic or badass. I'm saying that I intentionally had my character make a bad move because it was in character for him to do so and my characters aren't flawless sculptures that never make mistakes. In this particular instance it led to this character's death. But apparently this is enough to warrant a jobban? I would like to point out that just because I had my character react violently to a particular situation, it doesn't have any bearing on my ability to portray the character in future rounds or other situations.

I didn't come to your server (and by your server I don't mean you personally but I mean you, the administration, and the playerbase of the server) to kill characters, to act like an edgy tough guy, to get into OOC arguments, to settle old grudges (I have none) or to start feuds over a roleplaying game. I didn't come to this server because I wanted to get into arguments with the administration over rules and minor in character events that (by the rules that are posted on your own server) shouldn't even be considered canon and is against the way I desire to develop my character. I especially didn't come to this server to waste time on your forums, though I was considering putting in whitelist applications for aliens. I didn't come to this server so that I could point my finger at established characters or regular players and say "Hey, you're being bad, don't do that." I didn't come to this server to send an Adminhelp every time I see somebody breaking the server rules, though I try very hard to abide by them. I didn't come to your server to beg for attention OOC, IC, or on your forums.

I especially did not come to your server to get into arguments over rules when the administration changes said rules before I can point out what a glaring contradiction it is to have a rule that says "No insane or psychotic characters." and then just a little ways below it "Murder and assault is acceptable but must be RPed out." Anybody that would plan out and execute a violent attack on another person whether or not it leads to the victim's death is likely a psychopath regardless of their reasons. However, I should stress again that Gage's actions were unplanned. So now it's "Conflict is okay, but it must be believable"? Conflict? Any conflict? So am I allowed to say looc "You know, I'm sorry, but this argument our characters in just isn't believable to me, let's null and void it okay?" An argument is a kind of conflict is it not?

The only reason I came to this server is because it advertises itself as a Heavy Roleplay server.

Now I feel the need to point this out again:

Yes, my character refused to leave an area that he has access to and is trained to be in. Please explain to me how openly insulting a person, ordering them to leave, and then physically assaulting them without discussion facilitates the enjoyment of everyone in the round? (Which as I understand it is one of your server's rules?)

Yes, my character attacked another character with his gun. Like a traffic light, when you take a situation from Green and word use to Yellow, weapon use and physical assault, it's only natural that the situation escalate to Red and lethality.

On the topic of lethality: my character was attempting to kill the other character, yes, but I should point out again since it has apparently gone overlooked that it was my character, who was blinded, disarmed, and in an erratic state, that was executed without mercy by the heroic CSI who, as I pointed out in my original post, broke the rule on reacting to pain and killing in self defense.

I have no idea if the CSI character was an antagonist or not, and honestly I don't care. It doesn't matter who you are: if you openly disrespect and lay hands on an armed security officer, things are going to get violent very quickly and somebody may even get shot.

What is an issue to me is that I, me, the player, was banned from playing Detective for the actions I chose to have my (entirely fictional) character react to. I made it clear that I was open to IC consequences for having my character act rashly, I even made it clear that I was open for him to be permanently dead (killing Gage off is not an issue to me, it's only his name that I particularly like and I got it by hitting Random like 50 times), and apparently neither of these solutions are acceptable because the matter has gone beyond IC?

For who, exactly?

Let me give you an example. Let's call it "The Case of the Three Detectives", okay?

Imagine I have three characters:

1. Gage Marshall - 36, Detective, alcoholic, depressed, possible symptoms of PTSD, divorcee.

2. Mage Garshall - 63, Detective, clean and sober as a whistle, loves his family (he has a wife and like, I don't know, five kids? One of them is an adopted Tajaran and another is an adopted Unathi). He walks with a cane because he got shot in the kneecap and consequently he absolutely hates guns. Never even brings the revolver out of the cabinet.

3. Nao Toshiro-gane - 17, Detective, part-time Japanese schoolgirl. Dresses as a boy. Has blue hair. Always uses rubber bullets in her gun.

Now, I trust you can see how all three of these characters are distinctly different from each other and how each character might react to and handle situations differently. And, therefore, I trust you can see how banning me, the player of the characters in this example, might imply that each character is going to react the same way to different circumstances?

Now let me give you a different example. Let's call it simply "The Case of the Three Characters".

1. Gage Marshall - 36, Detective, alcoholic, depressed, possible symptoms of PTSD, divorcee. Likes: his job a little too much. Dislikes: his ex-wife Colette. Loves: Tomatoes mothafucka!

2. Jake Stahl - 27, Cargo Technician, relaxed, though with a possible criminal past, and a workplace thief as well. Likes: tools, building things. Dislikes: Working very hard. Loves: Dogs!

3. Spencer Price - 22, Nursing Intern, pacifist, believes in free love between human and aliens, bisexual, strong support of Nanotrasen. Likes: reading books. Dislikes: it when people smoke in the medbay. Loves: Practicing medicine!

I trust you can see how all three of these characters are different, and how they will react differently to different situations, and how by banning me from playing one of their professions (for the reason that the character is insane and / or psychotic) is implying that I'm incapable of making a character for that profession that isn't insane and / or psychotic. If you're suggesting that I'm incapable of making a character that isn't insane and / or psychotic, I need only direct you to the two other characters that I currently play that haven't been banned from their professions for psychotic actions (despite having plenty of opportunities to harm innocent characters ((and for Jake Stahl, even choosing to use nonlethal means over lethal means in a round of Revolution. Why would Jake Stahl the Revolutionary decide to use a tazer gun over a lazer gun? Because Jake Stahl, even as a Revolutionary, has no military or combat experience and is not a violent criminal, and because I as a player think it is more RP friendly to attempt to take a member of security hostage in an ambush rather than outright kill them.))).

I've wasted enough time on this appeal as it is, especially since I don't feel as if I should even have to appeal, because appealing means I'm guilty of something and the only thing I feel I'm guilty of is having my character react in character to an in character event. Thanks for your consideration.

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Guest Menown

The issue is you escalated to unreasonable levels. If you get flashed, and thrown out. Call security to detain him for illegal blocking and minor assault.

You don't pull our your gun and try to blow the guy's face off. That isn't how you solve a non-violent dispute in the real world, and it certainly wouldn't fly here.

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After some consideration, I have noticed that I am clearly not breaking through to you on the issue about breaking the rules. Not just that, you're clearly not seeing how (frankly) stupid your actions were. Refer to Meow's post above that hits the nail on the head really well. Misuse of the detective's revolver will get detective's job banned from it.

Appeal denied. Feel free to appeal again if you wish, but not until you understand that it stopped being an IC issue the moment you started shooting at a person because they forced you out of their workstation.

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