Staff Complaint: IncognitoJesus

[incognitojesus]

And no I'm not ignorant, the Quote isn't even bad. The incident that you referred to his hardly offensive to anyone, and has no meaning to my complaint. A group of men tasked with defending the group, defended the group from a attempted mutiny, and did nothing wrong except for fulfilling their duty. Hitler congratulated the SS, and his quote later became the motto of the Warden SS. So please, tell me how I'm ignorant for thinking otherwise of the quote? Did you even bother to fucking read the info that you posted? "It's on fucking Wikipedia." so what? What does it matter?

Your ignorant post regarding the Waffen SS motto and the Stennes Revolt is laughable, and completely lacks purpose in the argument against me.

This. All of this, is irrelevant to the complaint at hand, which is that you believe the warning was untrue and absurd.

The warning said that you said Nazi-related things in OOC.

You said Nazi-related things in OOC.

As for the IC incident, I'm waiting on the staff member who told me so to speak up on it. Until then, I don't see what your argument is. You weren't cherrypicked, considering the others were spoken to and Tytos was muted from OOC, much as yourself.

[spacevoidagent]

And no I'm not ignorant, the Quote isn't even bad. The incident that you referred to his hardly offensive to anyone, and has no meaning to my complaint. A group of men tasked with defending the group, defended the group from a attempted mutiny, and did nothing wrong except for fulfilling their duty. Hitler congratulated the SS, and his quote later became the motto of the Warden SS. So please, tell me how I'm ignorant for thinking otherwise of the quote? Did you even bother to fucking read the info that you posted? "It's on fucking Wikipedia." so what? What does it matter?

Your ignorant post regarding the Waffen SS motto and the Stennes Revolt is laughable, and completely lacks purpose in the argument against me.

This. All of this, is irrelevant to the complaint at hand, which is that you believe the warning was untrue and absurd.

The warning said that you said Nazi-related things in OOC.

You said Nazi-related things in OOC.

As for the IC incident, I'm waiting on the staff member who told me so to speak up on it. Until then, I don't see what your argument is. You weren't cherrypicked, considering the others were spoken to and Tytos was muted from OOC, much as yourself.

 

Yes I know that is all non-related to the complaint, that is what I was telling Vittorio.

I don't think I really made any really offensive, worse then PG-13 remarks, relating to Nazis. I learned about the Nazis when I was 8, and more when I was 10, and 12. I merely said a Military Motto, a slogan regarding concentration camps, and a marching song. I never made holocaust jokes about ovens or summer camps, or anything of that sort. I can understand the holocaust and all being a touchy subject, but it's history, and we aren't supposed to forget it. If anyone was offended by my 'Nazi' remarks, I apologize.

I still believe the warning is Untrue, sure I made some 'Nazi' remarks in OOC, but none of them were particularly offensive and not rule breaking. I also still think the 'report' I was making Hitler jokes IC is absurd, and I look forward to seeing proof of the 'jokes' I made.

[Frances]

In my opinion, maybe the warning was more because you kept talking about things you were asked to stop talking about?

There's a reason why OOC shouldn't have long, pointless memetic discussions about Hitler (because it skirts the line of the unacceptable by spamming OOC with things that are borderline not "PG-13" - including dildos, hate speech, and yes, holocaust jokes).

You didn't actually make any holocaust jokes (just encourage people to continue discussing a topic closely related - and leading - to something similar for pointless reasons), which is why this alone didn't deserve more than a tap on the shoulder. And since you kept talking about it afterwards (translating a Hitler quote after being told to stop talking about Hitler probably isn't the best idea), you got the warning above a tap on the shoulder, which is, well, an actual warning.

That's about as well as I can explain it but perhaps someone else can put it better.

[Doomberg]

Preface: The rules are not a catch-all. No, "do not talk about or reference Nazi Germany" is not specifically written in the rules. This does not automatically make the act okay.

Now, you were referencing said regime - this isn't something you can deny, considering you specifically mentioned the Waffen SS, Hitler quotes, and the rather famous phrase that was literally displayed at the entrance of Auschwitz. I will not get into explaining why the Nazis/SS/Hitler weren't okay guys, because that's a talk we really, REALLY shouldn't need to have, and it's also not relevant to the issue at hand. The bottom line is: This is not about morality or political correctness. The moderator in question or one of his colleagues asked you to stop or change the subject, yet you did not cooperate even after an OOC mute, and you were thus warned.

And before you move on from questioning the validity of the punishment and instead choose to question the staff member's logic in asking you to stop discussing this, allow me to ask: Do you really believe that it would be a good idea to greet a hypothetical new player with cries of "Arbeit macht frei" in global OOC? Is it really inconceivable that this could be bothersome, or that it might just create a pretty terrible first impression?

[spacevoidagent]

Preface: The rules are not a catch-all. No, "do not talk about or reference Nazi Germany" is not specifically written in the rules. This does not automatically make the act okay.

Now, you were referencing said regime - this isn't something you can deny, considering you specifically mentioned the Waffen SS, Hitler quotes, and the rather famous phrase that was literally displayed at the entrance of Auschwitz. I will not get into explaining why the Nazis/SS/Hitler weren't okay guys, because that's a talk we really, REALLY shouldn't need to have, and it's also not relevant to the issue at hand. The bottom line is: This is not about morality or political correctness. The moderator in question or one of his colleagues asked you to stop or change the subject, yet you did not cooperate even after an OOC mute, and you were thus warned.

And before you move on from questioning the validity of the punishment and instead choose to question the staff member's logic in asking you to stop discussing this, allow me to ask: Do you really believe that it would be a good idea to greet a hypothetical new player with cries of "Arbeit macht frei" in global OOC? Is it really inconceivable that this could be bothersome, or that it might just create a pretty terrible first impression?

I'm trying to tell you, I myself was never told directly to stop other then once. After I was told to stop I complied, and stopped talking. Shortly after this, someone asked "English?" of the Quote I posted, so I thought it would be okay to translate it for them, so I did. I was then muted and given this warning. Until we have logs, I believe I was only told once to stop.

Well no of course it wouldn't be good to greet a new player with cries of that, but so many other topics are discussed in OOC they have a chance of being greeted with anything. From abortion jokes, to slavery, to furrys and ERP. Surely those would make a bad first impression as well?

One of the things I like about this community, is the OOC community. The group of players is broad and different, and thus makes for more interesting discussions about things like History, Jokes, Technology, and even Tactics of the War against Terrorism and ISIS. Until we directly violate the rules or directly offend someone in OOC I think we should be able to talk about these things, and post songs and such. As far as I can tell, nobody was offended and the only people asking us to stop was staff because they apparently saw several other staff attempting to silence the group. Should we have been muted? I don't think so, the discussion wasn't hateful, slanderous or toxic. Everyone was getting along, and it wasn't like we were starting a race war by screaming "Aryan race forever!" and "Heil Hitler!". So yes, I can conceive why you wouldn't want players to be greeted with calls of "Arbeit yacht Frei.", but don't fathom why talking about 'Nazis' and German WWII music is such a problem that OOC needs to be muted.

[EvilBrage]

I think I know how this went now.

 

Void: I wanna be Wafen SS lol

Void: Meine Ehre heißt Treue!

Void: Arbeit Macht Frei!

Void: Hue hue they will never know what it means.

> PM from IJ: Stop that, I know what it means.

> PM from Void: Aw okay.

Bystander: English.

Void: Work makes you free!

> Void has been warned by IJ.

 

There comes a point in time where we have to exercise common sense.

I'm sure that at some point in your head, you probably thought to yourself "hm, maybe saying I want to be part of the Waffen SS isn't such a good idea." That's because it wasn't - I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we'd like to keep our racism and divisiveness IC in both state and relevance. Want to enslave the entire tajaran race? Feel free to boldly state that, but don't be surprised if a few of those #TajLivesMatter activists try to claw you in the face.

See what I did there?

[spacevoidagent]

I think I know how this went now.

 

Void: I wanna be Wafen SS lol

Void: Meine Ehre heißt Treue!

Void: Arbeit Macht Frei!

Void: Hue hue they will never know what it means.

> PM from IJ: Stop that, I know what it means.

> PM from Void: Aw okay.

Bystander: English.

Void: Work makes you free!

> Void has been warned by IJ.

 

There comes a point in time where we have to exercise common sense.

I'm sure that at some point in your head, you probably thought to yourself "hm, maybe saying I want to be part of the Waffen SS isn't such a good idea." That's because it wasn't - I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we'd like to keep our racism and divisiveness IC in both state and relevance. Want to enslave the entire tajaran race? Feel free to boldly state that, but don't be surprised if a few of those #TajLivesMatter activists try to claw you in the face.

See what I did there?

There comes a point where you have to exercise common sense, and don't make up bullshit dialogue and read all my previous posts.

Once again, wishing to be in the Waffen SS doesn't make me racist. How many times to I have to explain this?

[rrrrrr]

You are literally quoting what was written at the main entrance of a concentration camp. You are a vile racist. And before you say anything about Japanese internment camps, consider this. 2,000 people died in all internment camps across the west coast.

1.1 million Jews, Poles and Romani were killed at Aushwitz. They are in no way comparable.

[Guest]

There comes a point where you have to exercise common sense, and don't make up bullshit dialogue and read all my previous posts.

 

Except, this is exactly how it came off to people. You effectually lost sufficient respect points in some people eye's that you dropped from 'random dude that RPs I guess' to 'a completely vile, racist Wehrmacht sympathizer.' It doesn't matter what you think you said, you came off as an offlandish, racist douche. You made a comment that immediately made you easy to hate.

 

Once again, wishing to be in the Waffen SS doesn't make me racist. How many times to I have to explain this?

 

It actually does, considering the Waffen-SS was a creation of the Nazi party, and not of the German army. It is a fascist, extreme-authoritarian regime that materialized in an effort to crush the ideological enemies of the Nazis. And what were the ideologues that the Nazis preached?

Oh yeah, something about the Aryan race and that everyone else was inferior or something and didn't deserve to live.

No, you are a racist, but that's your problem, not mine. I'm glad the administration and moderation have taken steps to stop people from abusing their right to share ideas.

[spacevoidagent]

You are literally quoting what was written at the main entrance of a concentration camp. You are a vile racist. And before you say anything about Japanese internment camps, consider this. 2,000 people died in all internment camps across the west coast.

1.1 million Jews, Poles and Romani were killed at Aushwitz. They are in no way comparable.

Alright, so quoting something or someone makes me a vial racist? Lets use that logic, and put it into other situations, then shall we?

“You cannot run faster than a bullet.” – Idi Amin, so using your logic and branding me as a evil racist, what does this quote brand me as? A murderer who shoots people in the back? A sharpshooter? A sniper? What?

“One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.” – Josef Stalin, what does this quote make me? A communist? A mass murderer? Please, enlighten me.

“We need not fear the judgement of history. Who, after all, speaks today of the extermination of the Armenians?” – Adolf Hitler, how about this one? Does this make me a Nazi? A vial racist? Or someone that stood up against the massacre of the Armenian people? A Historian, perhaps?

[spacevoidagent]

There comes a point where you have to exercise common sense, and don't make up bullshit dialogue and read all my previous posts.

 

Except, this is exactly how it came off to people. You effectually lost sufficient respect points in some people eye's that you dropped from 'random dude that RPs I guess' to 'a completely vile, racist Wehrmacht sympathizer.' It doesn't matter what you think you said, you came off as an offlandish, racist douche. You made a comment that immediately made you easy to hate.

 

Once again, wishing to be in the Waffen SS doesn't make me racist. How many times to I have to explain this?

 

It actually does, considering the Waffen-SS was a creation of the Nazi party, and not of the German army. It is a fascist, extreme-authoritarian regime that materialized in an effort to crush the ideological enemies of the Nazis. And what were the ideologues that the Nazis preached?

Oh yeah, something about the Aryan race and that everyone else was inferior or something and didn't deserve to live.

No, you are a racist, but that's your problem, not mine. I'm glad the administration and moderation have taken steps to stop people from abusing their right to share ideas.

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/ss-soldiers-have-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/

[Guest]

>Referring to a blog as a reliable source

>Said blog only sources an autobiography, expecting people to believe its contents at face value

>Sigh

Your citations do not adequately defend the fact that the Waffen-SS still had a nasty reputation for brutality, murder of innocent civilians under the guise of an ideologue, and a tool of the Nazi regime.

At any rate, the way this complaint is going, the majority of people here are probably going to remember you as a Nazi sympathizer. Whether that's right or wrong is up to you, but the way a moderator dealt with you was just.

Go spread your authoritarian crap elsewhere, nobody wants or needs it.

[Tenenza]

So, can we stop arguing about if it is/isn't racist?

Because it seems to me that so long as people /think/ it's racist and are offended by it, then there isn't much to debate.

It's like, a common courtesy thing.

Like, let me give a real life example:

Old friend of mine, their father was seriously alergic to bees. Their father got swarmed by bees when my friend was young, and died as a result. Some other friends of mine were making jokes about bees (Reason why) while my old friend was standing there. My old friend tells my other friends that it's not really funny to them because it's reminding them of their father, and politely asks them to stop. I then tell my other friends that failure to stop making bee jokes will result in immediate expunging (see above for why). Everyone then makes jokes about gaint lizards. (See above again).

[spacevoidagent]

>Referring to a blog as a reliable source

>Said blog only sources an autobiography, expecting people to believe its contents at face value

>Sigh

Your citations do not adequately defend the fact that the Waffen-SS still had a nasty reputation for brutality, murder of innocent civilians under the guise of an ideologue, and a tool of the Nazi regime.

At any rate, the way this complaint is going, the majority of people here are probably going to remember you as a Nazi sympathizer. Whether that's right or wrong is up to you, but the way a moderator dealt with you was just.

Go spread your authoritarian crap elsewhere, nobody wants or needs it.

 

And what have you referred to? Nothing except for your own personal thoughts and beliefs. My citation highlights that all Waffen SS were not savage murderers, or brutes. If you overlooked this, you should read it again. Waffen SS were held to a high standard, and were punished for violating prisoners in concentration camps. Not all of them were bad.

The complaint was fine until you came along, like some of the others, went out of the context of the complaint, and branded me as a racist, Nazi, and a fool. You brought nothing productive to the complaint except for your morals taught to you. If all Waffen SS are bad, are all the US Marines murderers too? You know, they committed the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam?

Here, read this blog as well, it has more sources if that is all you seem to care about. http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.com/2013/02/waffen-ss-war-criminals-great-soldiers.html

[Guest]

Lol, I'm done arguing with you.

If you're going to be an absolute twit and fail to take responsibility for your own actions, then that's your perogative. I await your next staff complaint because you weren't allowed to be a bigot in an open community.

[spacevoidagent]

Lol, I'm done arguing with you.

If you're going to be an absolute twit and fail to take responsibility for your own actions, then that's your perogative. I await your next staff complaint because you weren't allowed to be a bigot in an open community.

What kind of response is that? Just because I have information that reinforces by claims you suddenly decide to stop? It looks like someone realized they were wrong. And where did I fail to take responsibility? And I a a Bigot? You are the one attacking me, because I believe that not all Waffen SS are evil people. Do you even know the definition of a bigot?

big·ot

/ˈbiɡət/

noun

a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.

[Tenenza]

Alright, the stoppings are happenings now.

Let's re-rail this thread back to the whole: Was Incog right in giving a warning?!?, and not the name-calling and bickery-backery-dickery.

[spacevoidagent]

Alright, the stoppings are happenings now.

Let's re-rail this thread back to the whole: Was Incog right in giving a warning?!?, and not the name-calling and bickery-backery-dickery.

I agree.

[Tenenza]

As well, I'm going to make the call that:

1: Whether or not spacevoidagent as a person holds beliefs that are offensive or racist is not the focus of this thread. If you wish to argue that their being or not being offensive or racist undermines their arguement, then please note that it does not, and that if you wish to complain about spacevoidagent's conduct or character, do so in a seperate thread.

2: This thread is not about if what spacevoidagent posted in OOC was racist or not. This thread is about if IncognitoJesus was justified in giving them a warning regarding those posts.

3: As arguements about whether or not the posts were actually racist or offensive have been rather unproductive, further arguements must address specifically not the falseness/truthfullness of the offensiveness/racism in the posts, but if IncognitoJesus was correct in responding their his belief that the posts were offensive/racist and/or if IncognitoJesus should reasonably be expected to judge the contents and message of the posts differently.

[Tenenza]

Yeah, we're /not/ going to continue talking about spacevoidagent and what they do or do not believe in this thread. Make your own complaint thread if you really want, but any further off topic and unconstructive remarks will be binned.

[incognitojesus]

I don't exactly see why the complaint was warranted, seeing as you have the issue with the warning itself. You were warned for violating rules and continuing after staff told you to stop. That's how the rules work, you violate them and disciplinary action is taken because of it. You can debate whether or not you meant to reference the genocide of over a million people, but the point is, staff took it as though you were being inflammatory, with at least one person mentioning that they felt personally offended due to their nationality, and thus you were spoken to and warned. The others who were performing said action were also spoken to by other staff members, so it's not an issue of cherrypicking, as some in this thread have commented, albeit for what reason they found, I have no clue. I've been cordial to you over OOC, so there's no real evidence of any sort of personal vendetta or what have you. I carried out what the entire moderation staff at the moment agreed would be the best course of action. The warning is true, you can't deny that. You did make Nazi-related remarks in OOC and even after OOC was muted, you translated it, which you shouldn't have done. Just because you're asked to do something by another player, doesn't mean you shouldn't, and definitely doesn't grant you immunity from the probable consequences surrounding that action.

[TechnoKat]

Well, IJ did everything good as staff should. Why get into heavy detail and start arguing as if it's some sort of science theory?(honestly just makes you look dumber, especially with all proof already given against you and easily solved. I've had quite a laugh as it was taken deeper.) I'd do the same IJ did.

[EvilBrage]

[angry inane response]

 

I'll make this simple for you. Here's what the rules say:

-Keep the OOC chat PG-13. Violence is expected in-game; this is SS13. However, avoid bringing up hateful or overly sexual topics.

 

Here's what you said:

I then said "I wish I was in Waffen SS." and "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" which apparently is unacceptable and offends people.

 

And then here's what I said:

There comes a point in time where we have to exercise common sense.

 

The conversation covered by the warning wasn't a meritorious discussion into the history of the swastika before it was adopted by the Nazi party. If you are truly so daft as to fail to realize that what you said could be potentially offensive, and then think you could somehow convince other administrators that quotes adopted by Nazi officials - as well as expressing the desire to be one of them - are not offensive or "hateful," then I don't think this is the server for you.

[Guest Menown]

I'd also like to point out, there is an absolute difference between the Waffen SS and the Wehrmacht.

The latter was the actual army, while the SS were initially the bodyguards for Hitler, then they became known for doing really nasty things to der juden. So, one, you knew what you were saying, two, you knew what you were saying, and three, you knew what you were saying.

If I said I'd like to become a member of ISIS, I'd probably get fucking slapped and sent back to my pet carrier.

Long story short, watch what you say, and when you're caught being a jackenape, say sorry and stop breaking the fucking rules. Lawyering them won't help you when you have this much evidence against you.

[spacevoidagent]

[angry inane response]

 

I'll make this simple for you. Here's what the rules say:

-Keep the OOC chat PG-13. Violence is expected in-game; this is SS13. However, avoid bringing up hateful or overly sexual topics.

 

Here's what you said:

I then said "I wish I was in Waffen SS." and "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" which apparently is unacceptable and offends people.

 

And then here's what I said:

There comes a point in time where we have to exercise common sense.

 

The conversation covered by the warning wasn't a meritorious discussion into the history of the swastika before it was adopted by the Nazi party. If you are truly so daft as to fail to realize that what you said could be potentially offensive, and then think you could somehow convince other administrators that quotes adopted by Nazi officials - as well as expressing the desire to be one of them - are not offensive or "hateful," then I don't think this is the server for you.

http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.com/2013/02/waffen-ss-war-criminals-great-soldiers.html