Frances Posted August 17, 2015 Author Posted August 17, 2015 You may say "oh, that'll influence to pick extended". No, it won't. The reason that it worked before, was being Aurora was getting 20-30 players, most of the time. Aurora is a rather popular server, and with that, comes more people who are interested in antag rounds, than extended. That's debatable (and comes with the argument that if so few people want to play extended, then why force it so much on players?) Either way, we can agree that the situation we're currently in isn't an optimal one, and if the suggestion I'm proposing doesn't end up fixing the problem, it'd be rather easy to revert to the current system. In the end, it's not the kind of thing that we can really find out without testing it (and I don't think this test comes at a particularly heavy cost). Anyway, let me reiterate my reasoning again. 1. There's a small group of people who want extended-only, another small (and maybe less vocal) group who want antags-only, and a reasonably bigger group of people who I can surmise prefer a mix of extended and antag rounds in varying proportions.2. As a whole, people on the server will always want some amount of extended rounds3. Since extended rounds show up very frequently in secret, people feel no need to vote for extended4. People who want extended rounds vote for secret as they no longer expect extended to win due to the previous clause5. If extended rounds didn't happen in secret, they would become rarer6. If extended rounds were rarer, more people would be tempted to vote for extended once again (the extended crowd, + the antag-and-extended crowd)7. Secret-extended rounds are probably the roundtype that most people can agree they moderately dislike (extended players would prefer straight extended, antag players would prefer antags) Also, reducing the chance of extended through secret without removing it is just putting a patch on a bigger boo-boo, imo. Better to go all the way than take a compromise which leaves weird implications of "extended is still kinda in secret but not so much", since my whole point is that secret-extended isn't a fun gamemode for anyone. Lastly, I'll add that the reason why secret wins so often is because people pile up on it to prevent another antag gamemode such as nuke or rp-rev from winning. So, there. Not optimal at all.
Guest Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 http://puu.sh/jFale/3e7cdd0ff7.png All the gamemodes recorded with the exception of database crashes. An execption must be taken for events where extended is are forced by vote.
Baka Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Why remove Extended Roleplay from secret when roleplay is expected on our server? If someone didn't get their favourite round type, well, tough luck. If someone doesn't know how to/doesn't like to roleplay without antagonists, that's on them. RNG doesn't know about niceties.
Guest Menown Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Why remove Extended Roleplay from secret when roleplay is expected on our server? If someone didn't get their favourite round type, well, tough luck. If someone doesn't know how to/doesn't like to roleplay without antagonists, that's on them. RNG doesn't know about niceties. Exactly. Tell those who enjoy extended tough nuts, it's antag, but then expect to make a compromise for those that want antag. That just doesn't make sense to me. It's for that same reason I hate when people cry about wanting an event or antags added to extended because they don't want extended.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Why remove Extended Roleplay from secret when roleplay is expected on our server? If someone didn't get their favourite round type, well, tough luck. If someone doesn't know how to/doesn't like to roleplay without antagonists, that's on them. RNG doesn't know about niceties. ANTAGONISTS =/= NO ROLEPLAY EXTENDED =/= "PURE" ROLEPLAY This logic is the most pretentious and condescending I see. Roleplay games don't stop being roleplay games when they introduce conflict.
Guest Menown Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Jackboot, Baka didn't say it meant no roleplay. She said that if people don't know how to roleplay without antags, it's on them.
Baka Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 I think you missed the point what I was saying there and went to the absolute extreme.
Jboy2000000 Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Who Meow and Baka said, and Jackboot, no one said that, but roleplaying does get much less fun when nearly every single round day in and day out has a someone with a gun going around shooting or stabbing people, or someone someone eating people's faces off, or something else, because they people have to hide in their departments, or go get killed. I don't see why people bash Extended for chairRP, but its antag rounds that actively make antag rounds because there is NO WAY amtags can involve every single person on station in whatever it is their doing.
Frances Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 Why remove Extended Roleplay from secret when roleplay is expected on our server? If someone didn't get their favourite round type, well, tough luck. If someone doesn't know how to/doesn't like to roleplay without antagonists, that's on them. RNG doesn't know about niceties. If you've read my argument, you can see that I don't actually believe this change would reduce the number of extended rounds, but simply make it clearer when it's extended or not.
Guest Menown Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Most extended rounds are added through secret, Frances. I've rarely seen extended voted for, except for events, or during deadhour. Secret is our go-to now.
Frances Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 Most extended rounds are added through secret, Frances. I've rarely seen extended voted for, except for events, or during deadhour. Secret is our go-to now. 3. Since extended rounds show up very frequently in secret, people feel no need to vote for extended 4. People who want extended rounds vote for secret as they no longer expect extended to win due to the previous clause 5. If extended rounds didn't happen in secret, they would become rarer 6. If extended rounds were rarer, more people would be tempted to vote for extended once again (the extended crowd, + the antag-and-extended crowd)
Guest Menown Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 I can assure you, Frances, people still vote for extended that vote for extended. Secret is voted for by people that like extended, only because something like nuclear or cult or whatever is winning.
Xelnagahunter Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Being able to see the numbers I can't tell you the amount of times secret has won a vote with a single voter over extended. It's always like 12 Extended/13 secret. Not literally always, but it happens a lot.
Frances Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 I can assure you, Frances, people still vote for extended that vote for extended. Secret is voted for by people that like extended, only because something like nuclear or cult or whatever is winning. So you don't believe that if secret-extended stopped happening, people would feel like voting for extended more? It's a theory, I feel like it makes sense on paper, but in the end the only way to verify it is to put it on trial. Is there anything to lose here? If my suggestion actually works, it would be a really nice QoL change for everyone.
EvilBrage Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 So you don't believe that if secret-extended stopped happening, people would feel like voting for extended more? I think this would be the case if everyone knew about it and consciously remembered this during the vote - I find this somewhat unlikely. Think about our regulars who don't use the forums, in addition to more casual players who aren't our typical Aurora citizens, and you'll see why. You could always plaster it on the home page, though, and see how that works out. I still stand by lowering the chance without removing it entirely - part of the splendor of secret is knowing that it's entirely possible that nothing will happen, in my opinion.
Guest Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Fran, most people vote secret to avoid the secular game modes such as nuke, heist, wizard, etc, with defined antagonists that everyone knows from the start. Basically, people dogpile their plan B just so that heist or nuke doesn't get voted. ESPECIALLY when it looks like extended is going to lose. So people vote secret instead. The execution of it is kinda crappy, but I understand the rationale. Also, extended is already lowest priority game mode on secret, tied with nuke. So you don't believe that if secret-extended stopped happening, people would feel like voting for extended more? I think this would be the case if everyone knew about it and consciously remembered this during the vote - I find this somewhat unlikely. Think about our regulars who don't use the forums, in addition to more casual players who aren't our typical Aurora citizens, and you'll see why. You could always plaster it on the home page, though, and see how that works out. I still stand by lowering the chance without removing it entirely - part of the splendor of secret is knowing that it's entirely possible that nothing will happen, in my opinion. I don't see how this would be the case, it seems to be assuming to me. Changing how extended rolls in the secret rotation wouldn't change the more casual players from voting secret for antagonists. Don't take casual as an insult, btw, it just defines the other group of people that play here, and it's not meant to be insulting. Anyway, as I already said, extended has the lowest chance out of potentially rolled game modes for secret. Lowering the chance for it to be rolled even further would be counter-intuitive, and it would either affect nothing or it'd basically accomplish the same thing this suggestion is making.
Guest Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Also, extended is already lowest priority game mode on secret, tied with nuke. Where are you getting your data from? Nuke is tied with Wizard, Cult, & Malfunction. Extended is the least likely to be picked.
Guest Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Also, extended is already lowest priority game mode on secret, tied with nuke. Where are you getting your data from? Nuke is tied with Wizard, Cult, & Malfunction. Extended is the least likely to be picked. I recall Skull telling me extended was tied with cult, nuke and malf when secret is voted.
Guest Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 The number got reduced due to the amount that extended was chosen. Config changes can happen without warning/notification. In this situation it was changed so people wouldn't get bored of extended being chosen a lot, since then the times secret has chosen extended has been very low.
Frances Posted August 21, 2015 Author Posted August 21, 2015 I'm super confused. Did either of you make a typo in their posts? I was under the impression extended pick rate had been increased in secret, to be at an advantage over all other gamemodes. Yet you (Scopes and 1138) seem to be arguing against each other, but saying the same thing. The main problem I was trying to solve while making this thread wasn't how boring secret-extended rounds were, but how rare voted-extended rounds felt, btw. I might not have clarified that enough but I think it's an important thing to focus on.
Guest Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 The main problem I was trying to solve while making this thread wasn't how boring secret-extended rounds were, but how rare voted-extended rounds felt, btw. I might not have clarified that enough but I think it's an important thing to focus on. You made it clear, but changing the options in secret will not change how people vote. If you think it feels rare that voted-extended rarely happens, how will removing it from secret make it any different? You have a feeling that it's rare, that's your problem. There is nothing to focus on here. Please take another long think about this. Most of our players do not visit the forums, they do not have forum accounts. Most of them just play and don't worry about any of this. This suggestion is a 'Remove this because I don't see voted it enough' I am very unlikely to make this change, because the reason for it makes no sense. I was questioning Delta's info because he isn't one of the server staff, yet he talks like one of them.
Frances Posted August 21, 2015 Author Posted August 21, 2015 I dunno how many times I've tried to explain this, so here we go again. It used to be that you didn't see extended happen often in secret. People usually voted secret to get antags, and extended to get extended. At some point in the past few months, people started voting for secret to get extended, or more precisely to get a chance at extended and prevent an antag gamemode (nuke, cult, etc.) from passing. Due to the lack of people voting for extended, the chance for secret to pick extended was increased. I'd like to bring the voting balance back to the old ways, where secret almost assuredly resulted in antags, and people would vote for extended to get extended, not secret. Removing extended from secret would encourage the people wanting extended to actually vote for it (and not secret). This change could easily be made clear through a server login announcement, and with the amount of discussion this topic has gotten, I'm fairly sure everybody in OOC would be quickly informed of it. (Also, it's only a "removal" in semantics - I'm not trying to get rid of anything, simply shift the balance of the voting system.)
Guest Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 I understand exactly what you are trying to do,but secret is secret, there is going to be a chance of no antags in secret. Extended is already the lowest gamemode selected in secret, I can't remember when extended wasn't in secret. Since I have had access to the server box extended has been an option in secret. People started voting secret because they don't want to play the gamemodes that is winning at the time (Which is usually Nuke, Ninja, Cult. From my observations) They would much rather have the chance of some antags or no antags than a bunch of people who are running on the station just to blow it up or shoot things. (Taken from comments in OOC) If anything, I would make the votes invisible so you can't strategically vote against other people. Everyone gets to vote on what they want and will only know what will win when the timer runs out. That is the way to balance the voting system, make sure you only vote for what you vote for and not what others are voting for.
Frances Posted August 21, 2015 Author Posted August 21, 2015 I understand exactly what you are trying to do,but secret is secret, there is going to be a chance of no antags in secret. Extended is already the lowest gamemode selected in secret, I can't remember when extended wasn't in secret. Since I have had access to the server box extended has been an option in secret.Are you sure about that? I remember distinctly Skull increasing the chance of extended being picked in secret, not lowering it. So do other people I've asked. Also, claiming "it's always been this way so we shouldn't change it" doesn't seem like a good counter-argument to my proposition, unless you're saying something else I don't understand. If anything, I would make the votes invisible so you can't strategically vote against other people. Everyone gets to vote on what they want and will only know what will win when the timer runs out.That is the way to balance the voting system, make sure you only vote for what you vote for and not what others are voting for. Specific antag gamemodes would never win through that, they only do through strategic voting. That's make the server run only a mix of secret and extended, which... might be a downgrade? At least right now you have the advantage that people can group together if they want to run a certain gamemode.
Guest Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 It wasn't made public as I said in my previous post. The number got reduced due to the amount that extended was chosen. Config changes can happen without warning/notification.In this situation it was changed so people wouldn't get bored of extended being chosen a lot, since then the times secret has chosen extended has been very low. Extended is the LOWEST option on the list, proof? http://puu.sh/jJJa9/60461812b4.png I'm not saying that it has always been that way, but what you are asking is removal of something from what is meant to be a random selection of gamemodes that no one will know what the round is until after it's been going for a bit. The only reason gamemodes like RP-rev and Mutany are not in the list is because of the same reason Malfunction fails to start sometimes. Remember when we put Mutany into secret and the server was stuck in the lobby screen for 15 minutes because there were never any heads of staff/captains? You said you wanted it back like the old ways, that is what it is currently set to. People should ready up more at start of round in order for more gamemode possibility. You would be surprised on the results of secret voting, since no one would be able to see what others vote they would vote what they want.
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