JKJudgeX Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 BYOND Key: JKJudgeX Staff BYOND Key: Ezuo Game ID: bPA-bxLR Reason for complaint: I, as a Loyalist, arrived on the escape shuttle to find Preston Prestoff shooting a proto-kinetic accelerator at Bloke Two, who was firing back with a .45 signal pistol... on the shuttle. Them being right in front of me, I assumed this was Rev action because I didn't see an L over their heads (and there was prior discussion regarding a potential mutiny, Bloke Two being a very likely potential mutineer, between myself and another Loyalist, as well as on general comms), and decided to intervene and disarm the situation for crew safety. I cable-cuffed Preston, pushed him into a locker that was a couple squares away and standing open (I have no idea why it was there), closed the locker, realized I had a welder, and welded him into it, getting ready to proceed to deal with Bloke Two, who was also acting as an antag (neither of them were). I am adminhelped by ezuo, who proceeds to ask me why a Surgeon would locker-weld a guy. I explain that I am an antagonist, Loyalist, and he was acting like a rev right in front of me, shooting people, so I was disabling him. He proceeds to act as though using a welder on a locker is an unreasonable action for a surgeon. I explain to him that anyone can use a welder on a locker, and this is not at all uncommon or out of the norm, especially for an antagonist. I have never heard of anyone saying that a specific skill is needed to weld a locker shut, so I challenged the concept. I asked in OOC if anybody knew that a surgeon couldn't weld a locker shut, which Ezuo then proceeded to accuse me of being "salty" for, and pulled out the "Don't be a dick" rule (thus calling me a dick, which, that's pretty fun to do over nothing). Evidence/logs/etc: Here is the evidence of what I arrived on the shuttle to: Preston Prestoff fires the proto-kinetic accelerator! Preston Prestoff fires the proto-kinetic accelerator! Bloke Two fires .45 signal pistol! The chemical shell misses Preston Prestoff narrowly! The chemical shell misses Vincent Corvo narrowly! The chemical shell explodes in a bright flash! Vincent Corvo attempted to disarm Preston Prestoff! Vincent Corvo attempted to disarm Bloke Two! Vincent Corvo attempted to disarm Preston Prestoff! Vincent Corvo is attempting to put cable restraints on Preston Prestoff! And since there was an open locker right there and I had earlier picked up a welder that was laying in the hall, a convenient opportunity to get Preston out of the way presented itself and I took it. Additional remarks: I'm not trying to be argumentative here, clearly the two non-antagonists shooting each other with flares and proto-kinetic accelerators at the end of the round was something that should have been addressed by Ezuo, but instead he chose to address me and start making up this rule that you can't locker-weld someone unless you're an engineer or something. He told me that his ruling was final, and if I had a complaint about it to bring it here, so, here it is, since he wanted it so bad... but, in all honesty, is locker-welding someone really going to require a specific skill? Honestly? Like, you have to have Amateur "Construction" skill to use a welder at all? I've never heard that and see this "rule" being broken in every other round. The construction skill doesn't even seem to be geared towards something as low-level as "welding a metal locker door shut", which is something a junior high school kid could very, very easily accomplish. If I had to guess what happened, I think Ezuo made a knee-jerk reaction to my robusting/lockering of Preston, thinking I was just randomly fighting on the shuttle, at first not realizing that I was an antagonist, and for whatever reason refused to relent (I think his ego got involved) when I informed him of the fact that I was an antagonist who thought these guys were part of a mutiny)... which is another reason I'd like to stick this complaint, because I don't think a good sign of a moderator is one who can't acknowledge their mistake, pump the brakes, and back off, especially on something as trivial and in response to a very poor end of round scenario, anyway. Also, I got noted for this exchange, which should have not even happened, IMO, once he realized I was an antag dealing with non-antags acting like antags on the shuttle. So, there you have it. What I'd like to see next: I would like a strong clarification as to whether an antagonist locker-welding someone who is shooting at people and fighting other crew is outside the range of acceptable actions unless that antagonist has a specific skill. And, I'd also like the note removed. Thank you for your time and patience.
Catnip Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 Heya, I'll be handling this complant. I had a talk with Ezuo regarding this incident, and he will be posting his piece shortly regarding what we spoke about. For now here are the PM logs, as well as the note that is currently on-record. PM Logs: PM: Ezuo/(Ri'zara Mi'ran)->JKJudgeX/(Vincent Corvo): Hey, you got a minute? PM: JKJudgeX/(Vincent Corvo)->Ezuo/(Ri'zara Mi'ran): Yeah what's up? PM: Ezuo/(Ri'zara Mi'ran)->JKJudgeX/(Vincent Corvo): I cant help but notice how you cable-locker-weld combo'd that guy. As a doctor, of all things. Can you please explain to me why you did so? PM: JKJudgeX/(Vincent Corvo)->Ezuo/(Ri'zara Mi'ran): I'm a loyalist, he was attacking someone with a proto gun on the shuttle. I was thinking he was one of the people who were planning a revolt, so, I disabled him. PM: Ezuo/(Ri'zara Mi'ran)->JKJudgeX/(Vincent Corvo): The cable cuffs were fine, and the disabling were fine, but lockering and welding them was a bit too much. The cable restraints would have been fine, wouldnt they? PM: JKJudgeX/(Vincent Corvo)->Ezuo/(Ri'zara Mi'ran): What does that matter? I found the welder on the way to the shuttle on the floor and there was an open locker right there on the shuttle. It was just convenient, plus, I thought I was gonna have to deal with another guy right after. PM: JKJudgeX/(Vincent Corvo)->Ezuo/(Ri'zara Mi'ran): Loyalist is an antagonist, btw. PM: Ezuo/(Ri'zara Mi'ran)->JKJudgeX/(Vincent Corvo): Being an antag doesnt exempt you from rules. I'm well aware that loyalists are counted as antags. PM: JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX)->Ezuo/(Ezuo) An loyalist locker-welding someone who is acting like a rev is in no way breaking any rule. PM: Ezuo/(Ezuo)->JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX): You're still only a doctor, and its kind of poor form, in my eyes. Its adding another level of difficulty to the escape in a way that requires welding (outside a doctor's perview of skills). PM: JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX)->Ezuo/(Ezuo): Welding a locker shut is not out of the skill range of anyone on the earth with a welder in their hand. PM: JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX)->Ezuo/(Ezuo): Further, you can get out of a welded locker with just like a minute of struggle. PM: JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX)->Ezuo/(Ezuo): Further, he was NOT an antag, SHOOTING a guy on the shuttle. PM: Ezuo/(Ezuo)->JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX): We're not talking about his actions. We're talking about your actions. I think you'll find that welding isnt a universal skill. At best, your doctor would have gotten some burns, and eye damage from not wearing protective gear. It was uncalled for, as they were already taken out of the fight. PM: JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX)->Ezuo/(Ezuo): He was in that locker for less than 50 seconds, and being welded in a locker after SHOOTING SOMEONE ON THE SHUTTLE is 100% okay. Sorry, but it is. PM: Ezuo/(Ezuo)->JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX): Have you read our rules? PM: JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX)->Ezuo/(Ezuo): Yeah, I've played here for way longer than you. PM: Ezuo/(Ezuo)->JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX): Oh, you have? Then you would have seen this passage at the very top: the word of Moderators and Administrators ingame is final, and not up for debate past a certain point. If you take issue with an ingame ruling, you are expected to submit a staff complaint about it, or to contact a Head Administrator about it after the round has concluded. PM: JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX)->Ezuo/(Ezuo): k, Staff complaint incoming. gg. PM: Ezuo/(Ezuo)->JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX): Please try and keep your salt to a minumum, both in here and in OOC. There was a concern raised last round about a few of your statements, which looked fine at the time, but it will become a problem if you continue this trend of hostile, salty comments. PM: JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX)->Ezuo/(Ezuo): Salt? Hostile? I said nothing salty or hostile. PM: Ezuo/(Ezuo)->JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX): You made passive agressive comments based off false assumptions. Assumptions such as you being ahelped, and passive agressive comments concerning the ability of doctors to use welders. PM: Ezuo/(Ezuo)->JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX): Do I need to quote to you the very first rule on the rules page? PM: JKJudgeX/(JKJudgeX)->Ezuo/(Ezuo): Thanks for calling me a dick, Ezuo. Note:
Ezuo Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 Alright, I've taken a step back to look at the situation, and here's what I've come up with. First off, the Preston and Bloke interaction was built up to prior in the round, and was properly escalated, so there was no real problem with that. In regards to my response to your actions, there was a lapse in judgement here, yeah. I have a heavy bias against combos like that, since they rely solely on mechanics, and make 0 sense irl. I saw something I had an aversion to, and thought I'd nudge them in a better direction. Of course, this nudge and further arguments were made without a solid basis, and were quite flimsy. Pulling at straws, as it were. As the situation stands, I see that there's a problem here, so I'll take away the note regarding the locker-welder combo. I still, however, take issue with your demeanor and the way that you let the PMs spill into OOC. I wont go into detail about that here, since the focus of this complaint isn't about you, but a note will be retained about that. In closing, there was a mess up here on my side for sure. I jumped in with my argument before getting a solid basis, and I'll be sure to find a base before the argument in future.
Catnip Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 With that said, the note has been expunged. I'd like to thank you for bringing this to light, and apologize for any inconveniences. The thread will remain open for 24 hours before being archived in-case there is anything left to be said.
JKJudgeX Posted July 22, 2017 Author Posted July 22, 2017 I'll also note that I don't think I was being "prickly" in OOC or passive aggressive. I was legitimately asking if people knew that a surgeon was not allowed to use a welder, and also trying to ascertain whether I had been adminhelped (which was my assumption, though the player told me he didn't after I stated that he was fighting on the shuttle and then adminhelped me in the previous round). I think there's a certain level of sensitivity here, where every possible statement or action in ahelp and OOC was being taken as some kind of serious affront to Ezuo, when in fact it was just me stating my case. I didn't call names or make suppositions, other than that I feel like he didn't realize I was a Loyalist when he first ahelped me... This is my second issue with a Trial Moderator recently, and I wouldn't have even brought it up if not for the permanence of the notes. When they are being signed on, is there any kind of discussion about the fact that noting someone's account is semi-permanent, and you've got players here who have been around for a long time, and little notes like this will have an impact on future rulings and things like whether they are considered for mod or admin positions. So what I'm saying is, can we chill with the notes that I have to come and contest on the forums to get expunged, because, this is not the fun part of SS13. Now I feel ineligible to apply for any kind of other whitelists or positions, because I'm apparently a bad person that gets noted a lot. Thanks.
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