Frances

What Kaipov did was still outright very poor play as a member of security. You do not walk alone into a den of antags and start stunspamming the lot out of the blue. Right?

See, the problem is that as realistic as it might seem, I don't think you can simply do that from an OOC perspective. Otherwise, you'd have ops that could just say "well we're attacking the station, we're going to kill anyone who's in the hallways" and then have free rein to gank because "combat zone lol". This wasn't even what happened here. There were vague threats given as best - players can expect to run into trouble, yes, but they shouldn't have to run into somebody who shoots them on sight simply because they were there, without presenting any sort of clear threat.

Okay. I think this is the big problem here. You walk into the ship of a large group of individuals who you know are hostile to you. You are alone. Several of these individuals accost you and ask you for the reason of your presence. You are hoping to arrest said individuals and bring them to justice. What do you think is the best course of action, and why?

Do you remember who the interim HoS was? I don't recall the Vox doing anything particularly hostile up to the confrontation with Kaipov, aside from kidnapping a single person who came willingly (and that nobody on station seemed to give two fucks about).

In that case, his pretty poor handling of the situation still comes to stand. He harmbatoned the Vox for no discernible reason, made no attempt to stand down, and complained in LOOC after the fact.

BYOND Key: FFrances Player Byond Key: TechnoKat Staff involved: None (sent an ahelp, didn't get a reply) Reason for complaint: Extremely belligerent behavior against round antagonists as a warden Approximate Date/Time: June 9th 2015 at approx 6:00 PM EST Roughly 2 hours into a heist round, Viktor Kaipov, station warden, decided to equip himself with a hardsuit and energy carbine, and make his way to the Vox skipjack alone. The Vox had previously left the station after a tense incident where one of their own died in medbay and the crew subsequently branded them as hostile, and all of the Vox had consequently returned to the skipjack. Enter Kaipov, who made his way to the skipjack for an unknown reason, with a carbine and full secbelt, and began almost immediately engaging the Vox in combat until he was killed. One thing possibly worthy of note was that the Vox had a hostage on the ship, though little to no discussion of any kind was engaged over station comms regarding the hostage, and nobody on the crew particularly cared about it. Here are logs encompassing the entirety of the time between Kaipov's arrival and the beginning of the fight: These are some additional LOOC logs which I felt were relevant to the situation: tl;dr: Warden left the brig for no apparent reason, grabbed a hardsuit and a carbine, flew to the Vox skipjack alone, and started trying to robust the Vox without a word.

Reporting Personnel: Keegan Cox Rank of Reporting Personnel: Chief Medical Officer Personnel Involved: Phoebe Essel Time of Incident: 6/9/2457, 14:00 Location of Incident: Medical Bay Nature of Incident: []Workplace Hazard []Accident/Injury []Destruction of Property []Neglect of Duty []Harassment []Assault [x]Misconduct [x]Other: Overstepping of official powers Overview of the Incident: I arrived on the station at approximately 14:00, being called on emergency due to a reported code blue ((it was nuke, let's just pretend it was an unspecified code blue and no one died)). Moving in towards the station's medical bay, I met one of my doctors standing outside the lobby, without any apparent ID or PDA. Asking them what happened, I managed to garner that the doctor had been handed what was equivalent to a "field demotion" by Phoebe Essel, a lab assistant working on the station. Although the medical roster had two active doctors, a chemist, a virologist, a nurse, a surgeon, and a geneticist present at the time, it seems some of my staff had seen it fit to invite Phoebe Essel inside of the medical bay and hand out medical equipment to her, as they somehow found themselves incapable of performing their regular medical duties. Although Dr. Essel was a lab assistant at the time, I was told she possessed a doctorate of medicine, a fact which was known by several members of the crew, and explained her impromptu "admission" in the medical staff. However, once there, she proceeded to take away another doctor's ID and PDA with the assistance of a detective. This doctor, apparently deemed unfit to work by Dr. Essel, had reportedly been found smoking inside of medbay and engaging in a critical medical procedure without making efficient use of anesthetic (the case of a collapsed lung, which might require immediate treatment depending on its severity.) While I do not condone smoking inside of the medical bay and believe the doctor in question should be put under review, I find it highly inappropriate and a potentially shocking abuse of power that Dr. Essel saw it fit to confiscate the doctor's ID herself rather than going through appropriate channels - there was a Head of Personnel present at the time, who I believe was not contacted at all. The appropriate course of action in this instance would have been to inform security, remove the doctor from the emergency theatre if he was judged to be unfit to practice (assigning him to other duties until he could be evaluated), then immediately refer the matter to the Head of Personnel. Instead, Dr. Essel seems to have taken the matter into her own hands without going as far as to get command or any security personnel involved, or even informed of this incident. While I understand that code blues can be stressful and demanding situations, and that time and context-sensitive actions need to be taken, actions which might sometime bypass corporate regulations or the chain of command, I cannot in a right state of mind condone Dr. Essel's actions. Her observed behavior (as well as the behavior reported to me by the concerned doctor) seems to show she has little respect for the chain of command or proper organization aboard the NSS Aurora. Dr. Essel has also proven to be highly confrontational and argumentative over the medical comms, considering she was not even a member of the department at the time. When I asked her the reason of her presence in medical despite her title of lab assistant, she questioned my intelligence before providing me with a satisfying answer, and called several other members of my staff of terms such as "retarded" and "low-intelligence". Following are excerpts taken from the Aurora's telecommunication server at the time of the incident: Phoebe Essel [Medical] says, "I'll mess with your doctors if they're garbage. That's my duty." Phoebe Essel [Medical] says, "I'm persuing xenobiology because I can, Cox. I doubt you are capable of such mental duress." I was also informed by the involved doctor that she verbally demanded he hand over his ID to her, and that she claimed to be the doctor's superior despite her currently assigned title clearly stating otherwise. ____________ As a whole, I am under the impression following this incident that Dr. Essel shows a clear entitlement towards responsibilities which are not hers to bear, and might want to see herself involved with the station's medical duties even without being part of the medical roster of going through the proper channels to be given an assignment. I would have much less of an issue with this were she not to prove as confrontational and dismissive towards both my staff and the chain of command as she is. Did you report it to a Head of Staff or IAA? If so, who?: N/A Additional notes: ((it's a bit complicated, but if any admins/DOs have OOC questions about the thread, I'd appreciate if you sent me a PM first before posting on the thread because of certain confidentiality issues. I should be able to explain everything fairly easily))

Does Lockie have a robotic brain?

a regular 2:00 crew transfer on Aurora

While punishing these people make sense, I would really like to know why people react that way. What are the IC, OOC, any kind of justifications for acting the way they did. Would be nice to get a reply from those two.

I was hoping for people to begin suggesting solutions. You can either help us, or add to the whining and counter-whining. I'll let you decide which is more useful. As for me, I try to play at least one round a day as HoS and make sure nobody on sec does anything too stupid. However, I believe the problem will only be solved when the general mindset of the department changes, and officers start to cover for each other, instead of having to rely on 1-2 reasonable players being around to keep everyone in check.

I believe Aurora (since I came about, I heard it was different just before) has been about finding a right balance between the two styles. People who prefer calmer roleplay have been getting pushed out lately, but I think it's also unfair for them to make excessive demands of people who want action/antagonists. It used to be there were a lot of people who did chair RP, and now it seems there's a lot of people that prefer action and roleplaying around antag gamemodes. The balance is important, though. If it weren't for these two groups coexisting, Aurora would only be half of what it is today. Building relationships with people gets very boring if you don't get to test them under tense scenarios, and characters who obsess about action without any backstory or semblance of form also get stale incredibly quick. I don't think one playstyle would exist very long without the other, and they are both necessary to support each other and make the game fun.

Just to clarify things, you're afraid the button could encourage people to write burns/disses for the sake of getting likes, and that it thus encourages this type of post, yes?

Whoops, I just understood that. Do people really discuss them like it was gossip? That's sorta silly, I always assumed they were private. Somebody ought to clarify that.

Extended is boring if you make it boring. Most players are waiting for others (mostly antags) to start something. I believe that's likely why I see people complain that nothing happens in extended, and not that nobody plays along with what they're trying to do (well, okay, some people leave to do chairRP, but you can't really say the whole station just disappears to go on dates). A week might be too long (and I don't want to see forced extended for a day on a weekly basis), but I could see this being interesting proven players are given proper guidance during it (whether that be in the form of DOs, events, or just other players striving to make stuff happen.)

To reply to inverted, some roundtypes/scenarios are very difficult to make happen if security is constantly trying their best to murderbone you. Cult is fun with fighting, but Nuke tends to end with the 12:50 bloodbaths + bridge bombings that make everyone mad, wizard creates a lot of collateral for little RP, and regular autotraitors get BTFO by sec. Additionally, if being on sec essentially makes you a valid ganking target, I fear a lot of reasonable sec players will stop playing on sec, while those that are looking for combat at every turn will be further engaged to fuel this loop in a way that results in less and less RP. (Which is what you're saying you want to see happen, but there's a minimum of RP even around non-RP combat, and I'm afraid we're going to see sec officers who do not RP at all.) I'm not saying non-RP combat doesn't have its place (RP combat is hard to make happen anyway), but there are a lot of situations which would be much more interesting if both parties made an effort to play along with each other for at least a short while.

I am for complaints/IC reports/whatever being public. Having them being private removes a vast amount of transparency, and can easily give to players the impression that nothing is being done/dealt with (and sometimes that's the case, so I'd rather be able to bump complaints or at least see them.)

You might've missed it but that was obviously paraphrasing/making use of a hyperbole.

It could've been written more eloquently, but it honestly seems to me like nanotoxin was simply sharing his opinion there - an opinion that was related to the present issue. He didn't call Dea out personally, but simply expressed the opinion that posting private skype logs was distasteful. I don't personally agree with him on that front, since the logs were related too, but I don't think anything but his tone can really be held against him.

Seems to me like you took a jab at her (not a terrible one), and she decided to hit back a lot harder. People should be nice to each other. And I say this as someone who's perfectly willing to air other people's dirty laundry when it's relevant to a cause or issue. It's clear that Dea was frustrated at you because of something you previously did, but I just don't find it had its place here. Seriously people just need to chill. Edit: Delta ninja'd me, but as a reply to his post, I basically think this complaint is an appropriate course of action because nobody (staff or not) should be resorting to personal attacks unrelated to the matter at hand on the forums.

I have to back up Sue. Most cases of bad sec also come from players/characters who believe they're in the right to act the way they do; in their minds, their actions don't go against any of what has been put here above the slightest. Same for OOC attitude. What we need is for security to shape up as a department, so that present sec members can show the example to any newcomers. Security seems to be unable to clean up its own mess at the moment, and it honestly should be capable to.

Was present, no officers "went lethal" as they had no lethal weapons at their disposal. Fighting seemed mostly fair, escalation happened reasonably from both sides, and the only victim of the initial fight was a random IAA who I believe simply ended up being punched to death by a few people in the melee.

This is also a problem I've seen. A few officers are too eager to catch antags, but a lot... I, I just don't know what they're doing. On several instances, I played plainly unknown characters, and ended up in the brig simply for being in the wrong place, or because someone accused me of being near someone who died/something suspicious happening. I've been brigged, demoted, kicked out of departments (not even interrogated, though). And the silly thing is this usually starts with somebody outside of sec reporting something (like "help I just saw Bald Baldington with this person's body!") and then sec taking that person's word as gospel simply because they're someone they know and trust ("hmm, scientist McPopular just said they saw you murder someone, off to permabrig with you") without even verifying evidence. You can't brig people without evidence. I ahelp it when it happens, but I feel like this is something that needs to get around until everybody that plays sec understands it, because I see it happen way too often for it to be normal. Even if you're internally 100% sure somebody did something bad, if you don't have solid evidence or witnesses, you can't brig 'em.

The problem I can see with any "lore" solutions to this is that it moves rp-rev a lot more towards "revolutionaries are being hired by the syndicate to fuck over the station". Yes, that and the crew being angry don't need to be mutually exclusive, but in my experience the best rp-rev rounds have always come from the crew roleplaying genuine discontentment, not convoluted syndicate plots.

I spoke to Delta, we solved our different. All is well, and I learned a thing I did not know yet. It seems like the main point that didn't carry through was that the reason why he (in the example I posted about) rushed me while I was holding him at gunpoint was because another sec officer walked in, and he feared the sec officer would try to rambo - he thus panicked and tried to save himself. It didn't necessarily make a ton of sense ICly, but I think it's very representative to another problem the community is facing. Which brings me to another big issue in validhunting - the lack of faith people have in antags or non-antags. And I've heard it from both sides. Antags that do/don't do certain things because they think sec is shit, and on the flipside basically anyone that refuses to take antags seriously because they expect everything antags do to result in failure and frustration. Hm. Seems kinda circular. Anyway, even though some people will always act a little crappy (and should probably be reprimanded or taught better), wouldn't we all be much better off if we actually tried to put some hope into the people we're playing with, instead of assuming for everything to go wrong and take the risk of contributing to the mess ourselves?