Rescue-borg fixes

[Chada1]

This should probably be archived if no feedback is here to give since my PR is merged and the hypospray issue should be put up as a bug in the issues section of the github too.

[Playbahnosh]

17 hours ago, Chada1 said:

This should probably be archived if no feedback is here to give since my PR is merged and the hypospray issue should be put up as a bug in the issues section of the github too.

Excuse me, but this is not your feedback thread, you just used it as such. It started out as an ideas thread how to fix the rescue module, make it better suit it's purpose, giving it the tools it needs, etc.

[Chada1]

18 minutes ago, Playbahnosh said:

Excuse me, but this is not your feedback thread, you just used it as such. It started out as an ideas thread how to fix the rescue module, make it better suit it's purpose, giving it the tools it needs, etc.

Yes and now a PR that does what the thread is asking for by and large is merged -- The suggestions forum last I checked is for things that aren't actually being worked on, at the very least it should be moved to the projects forum in that sense... but it doesn't really matter much if it is or not, it can stay here in limbo too with people maybe dropping an idea or two if they think of them.

The Hypospray issue has a *LOT* more likelihood of being fixed if it's posted in the issues section of github too.

There's a reason for the things I'm saying, I'm not just saying them.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Chada1

[Playbahnosh]

I just now gotten around to testing some of the new changes, and here are some observations:

- The Jetpack tool and the Speed tool both work. (I still don't agree with borgs flying at all, but regardless, they can now)

- The Mass Spectrometers works as intended. Drawing blood and analyzing it works properly and shows the correct substances in the blood. Thank you!

- The Rescue module got the wrong gripper. It now has the magnetic gripper, which cannot grab anything as far as I tried. It should be changed to the medical gripper.

- The Rescue module's hypo has Dexalin now. Thank you! People now have a significantly better chance at surviving by rescue borg.

- The Medical module has a bunch of clerical tools added for no reason. There is no scenario where a Medical borg would need a QuickPay terminal for example, or any other clerical stuff. It can just record things on the medical record if needed, and grab paperwork from the wall terminal if they really want to. Putting in needless tools just clutter up the interface (now it obscures almost the entire screen) and makes it harder to get the right tools quickly in a pinch. At most, I would keep the pen and the labeler so they can label stuff when working in chemistry.

- Aside from the newly added clerical stuff, the Medical HUD tool should be removed. Setting the sensor augmentation on the Robot Commands tab does exactly the same thing, but that one is a toggle, and doesn't take up a slot, so it makes the hud tool obsolete. The flash tool should also be removed I think. Aside from being borderline useless, I don't think rescue borgs should flash anyone. It doesn't work on hostile mobs or half the antags anyway, and antagonizing antags as a rescue/medical borg is kinda bwoink-worthy.

I didn't have time to do more thorough testing since the round ended, but I hope this helps a bit. I'll test more modules and changes later when I have time. Also, I didn't forget about the rework suggestions for the other modules, but that needs some more testing on my part also. I'll post them as I'm able.

 

2 hours ago, Chada1 said:

at the very least it should be moved to the projects forum in that sense...

I'm totally good with that.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Playbahnosh

[Chada1]

3 hours ago, Playbahnosh said:

I just now gotten around to testing some of the new changes, and here are some observations:

- The Jetpack tool and the Speed tool both work. (I still don't agree with borgs flying at all, but regardless, they can now)

- The Mass Spectrometers works as intended. Drawing blood and analyzing it works properly and shows the correct substances in the blood. Thank you!

- The Rescue module got the wrong gripper. It now has the magnetic gripper, which cannot grab anything as far as I tried. It should be changed to the medical gripper.

- The Rescue module's hypo has Dexalin now. Thank you! People now have a significantly better chance at surviving by rescue borg.

- The Medical module has a bunch of clerical tools added for no reason. There is no scenario where a Medical borg would need a QuickPay terminal for example, or any other clerical stuff. It can just record things on the medical record if needed, and grab paperwork from the wall terminal if they really want to. Putting in needless tools just clutter up the interface (now it obscures almost the entire screen) and makes it harder to get the right tools quickly in a pinch. At most, I would keep the pen and the labeler so they can label stuff when working in chemistry.

I'm glad you like the new tools minus the jetpack, and also the reason many 'borgs have clerical tools as of now is purely for the roleplay aspect of being able to print papers/do paperwork for Crew if the 'borg wants, so you can like, advertise on walls for a blood drive and roleplay stuff like that, write down symptoms, and those sorts of high RP things. I think it's very important for that sorta stuff even if they have no mechanical use whatsoever which is why I gave it to Service, Research and Mining.

Also the gripper was an accident, I was trying to code the 'borg able to put a new gas tank into their jetpack, and accidentally left it in, it's actually the engineering gripper, I'll be bugfixing that.

3 hours ago, Playbahnosh said:

- Aside from the newly added clerical stuff, the Medical HUD tool should be removed. Setting the sensor augmentation on the Robot Commands tab does exactly the same thing, but that one is a toggle, and doesn't take up a slot, so it makes the hud tool obsolete. The flash tool should also be removed I think. Aside from being borderline useless, I don't think rescue borgs should flash anyone. It doesn't work on hostile mobs or half the antags anyway, and antagonizing antags as a rescue/medical borg is kinda bwoink-worthy.

I didn't have time to do more thorough testing since the round ended, but I hope this helps a bit. I'll test more modules and changes later when I have time. Also, I didn't forget about the rework suggestions for the other modules, but that needs some more testing on my part also. I'll post them as I'm able.

I could remove the HUD and have 'borgos rely on Sensor Augmentations, but those AFAIK actually do different things, which is weird and honestly that should probably be changed, the sensor could do the same thing as the HUD, it wouldn't hurt anything. It's just a holdover that it doesn't I think, from eons ago.

ALSO I agree a Rescue 'borg doing anti-antag things should be bwoinkworthy 100%, but the flash is actually useful, here's what you have to do -- Instead of clicking people with it, click the flash itself, it'll do an AOE blind, and then just ZYOOM away, it works on people in voidsuits and other stuff too.

O And that's basically the only change, the PR only changed the Rescue rn, I'll probably be PRing new stuff for the other modules eventually but this was just a quickfix for Rescue that also gave other modules clerical tools.      

 

[Playbahnosh]

2 hours ago, Chada1 said:

also the reason many 'borgs have clerical tools as of now is purely for the roleplay aspect of being able to print papers/do paperwork for Crew if the 'borg wants, so you can like, advertise on walls for a blood drive and roleplay stuff like that, write down symptoms, and those sorts of high RP things.

I like the sentiment, but I think it really doesn't fit the stationbound role as a whole. IMO borgs are built for a specific purpose, aka the job their module stands for. They need the tools to do that exact role and nothing else, and that's important. This is why we have several different modules and not just one mega-borg. Also, we already have a module that does clerical stuff, like paperwork. If a borgo really wants to bother with paperwork, they can just switch over with a reset board. Giving all those tools to other borgs just needlessly clutters up the tool inventory with stuff they really shouldn't even use and dilutes the role as a whole. Think about it, why would a mining borg have a QuickPay terminal, paper dispenser or whatever else? It makes no sense. It just needs to be good at one thing: mining. That goes for every module. I know you just wanna give the player some more things to use, but ICly it goes against what stationbounds are, which is a tool made for a specific purpose. And again, borgs can always just reset into another module if they wanna do something else, a lot easier than crew can, who need to bug the HoP/Captain if there is even one, etc. IMO if people want to do something else besides their job, they can play crewmembers. Borgs need a wholly different mindset and way of RP-ing because of their nature, and I really want to keep that intact.

Also, I did more testing and research and I'll be posting a borg rework megathread where I'll share my plans for stationbounds as a whole, and we can discuss this in more detail.

2 hours ago, Chada1 said:

I could remove the HUD and have 'borgos rely on Sensor Augmentations, but those AFAIK actually do different things, which is weird and honestly that should probably be changed, the sensor could do the same thing as the HUD, it wouldn't hurt anything. It's just a holdover that it doesn't I think, from eons ago.

The sensor augmentation does exactly the same as the HUD tool, only you can toggle it between different modes or off, so the HUD tool in the inventory is actually worse, since it takes up a slot. Although the Security HUD mode is still selectable on the augment menu, which I think should be removed from there.

2 hours ago, Chada1 said:

ALSO I agree a Rescue 'borg doing anti-antag things should be bwoinkworthy 100%, but the flash is actually useful, here's what you have to do -- Instead of clicking people with it, click the flash itself, it'll do an AOE blind, and then just ZYOOM away, it works on people in voidsuits and other stuff too

I'm really not sure about this. Having a straight anti-personnel device such as the flash on anything other than the secborg is bad. It's useless on most antags, only blinds normal people for like a second, and doesn't even stun anymore. It's nothing more than a mild annoyance if anything. Also, antags don't care about borgs, unless you are actively trying to stop them, which you shouldn't even do because 4th law and bwoink. People who even dare play stationbounds know better than to try, since validhunting as a borg is insanely obvious and completely bad-faith RP. The only scenario I can imagine where a borg could lawfully go up against an antag is when they're attacking a crewmember in plain sight, and you call 3rd law. But even then, it's extremely thin ice. I've already been bwoinked for doing exactly that.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Playbahnosh

[Chada1]

1 hour ago, Playbahnosh said:

I like the sentiment, but I think it really doesn't fit the stationbound role as a whole. IMO borgs are built for a specific purpose, aka the job their module stands for. They need the tools to do that exact role and nothing else, and that's important. This is why we have several different modules and not just one mega-borg. Also, we already have a module that does clerical stuff, like paperwork. If a borgo really wants to bother with paperwork, they can just switch over with a reset board. Giving all those tools to other borgs just needlessly clutters up the tool inventory with stuff they really shouldn't even use and dilutes the role as a whole. Think about it, why would a mining borg have a QuickPay terminal, paper dispenser or whatever else? It makes no sense. It just needs to be good at one thing: mining. That goes for every module. I know you just wanna give the player some more things to use, but ICly it goes against what stationbounds are, which is a tool made for a specific purpose. And again, borgs can always just reset into another module if they wanna do something else, a lot easier than crew can, who need to bug the HoP/Captain if there is even one, etc. IMO if people want to do something else besides their job, they can play crewmembers. Borgs need a wholly different mindset and way of RP-ing because of their nature, and I really want to keep that intact.

Also, I did more testing and research and I'll be posting a borg rework megathread where I'll share my plans for stationbounds as a whole, and we can discuss this in more detail.

I'll hold off on arguing against this point even if I very much disagree with it and have very intricate reasons of why just because it'd be better to wait until you post the next thread to say ? We can have a more productive discussion there.

1 hour ago, Playbahnosh said:

The sensor augmentation does exactly the same as the HUD tool, only you can toggle it between different modes or off, so the HUD tool in the inventory is actually worse, since it takes up a slot. Although the Security HUD mode is still selectable on the augment menu, which I think should be removed from there.

I'm really not sure about this. Having a straight anti-personnel device such as the flash on anything other than the secborg is bad. It's useless on most antags, only blinds normal people for like a second, and doesn't even stun anymore. It's nothing more than a mild annoyance if anything. Also, antags don't care about borgs, unless you are actively trying to stop them, which you shouldn't even do because 4th law and bwoink. People who even dare play stationbounds know better than to try, since validhunting as a borg is insanely obvious and completely bad-faith RP. The only scenario I can imagine where a borg could lawfully go up against an antag is when they're attacking a crewmember in plain sight, and you call 3rd law. But even then, it's extremely thin ice. I've already been bwoinked for doing exactly that.

If 'borgs don't have a flash, they can resort to lethal means immediately according to laws as a last resort, that's not good, also I'm glad it's considered bad faith roleplay, I've been trying my hardest to push 'borgs into that direction, and last I checked the sensor augmentations actually were different, they actually showed the antag-hud overlay (For medical/security if you had the visor) and not the sensor. I C tho.

[Chada1]

As of now, the hypospray voidsuit/hardsuit issue may be being fully fixed, you can see the bugfix by Mya here: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/10523

[StationCrab]

Borgs should retain its flash. It has its uses. The clerical tools are a welcome change for all modules, they aren't for everyone, but I use them in my RP when I can.

Rescue flying is fine, you can't do your job without it. There are areas of the station a borg can't reach or escape from without a jetpack, and these areas are frequently visited by clumsy miners with broken legs.

The changes are great, my only slight worry is that Rescue can do 95% of chemistry tasks now, but that may not be a bad thing for when there is down time. The medical module still retains it's niche of surgery, so having both capable of chemistry shouldn't be too bad.