Medical Gameplay Issues

[Hunt]

Aurora medical, as merged from Bay-brainmed long ago remains reliant on chemistry. While surgery can and is used to solve all severe injuries in the event a chemist is lacking, the positions such as physician and EMT specifically are impacted negatively due to the absence of a chemist. Looking into the issue in general, theories as to why these issue(s) occur becomes further apparent.

Why does nobody play chemist?

Chemist/Pharmacist as a role is mechanically out of anything to do post thirty minutes into the shift. Characters who are pharmacists or chemists will play perhaps a week before moving to a different department or job because chemistry is outright boring. Sure, there are a few individuals who have maintained to be chemistry mains throughout the years but the rate at which they play is so infrequent in the past month(s) that perhaps at best one out of ten shifts seems to have a chemist. There is no present resolution to this, chemistry at its core is busy-work, work that takes thirty minutes and is then over. This busy-work however, is fundamental to 'good' gameplay within the Infirmary, with many positions being reliant on it or made entirely obsolete if a chemist is not around.

How is this an issue?

Many outside the Infirmary/medical mains do not care as to who does chemistry, they care to remain within the round and engaged with the events. Yet, when a chemist is not present, EMTs are severely limited and the same can be said for physicians, which surround noninvasive care techniques (anything outside of surgery.) Techniques which while somewhat feasible without chemistry, usually results in the need for surgeons to handle everything, everyone, and makes physicians outright obsolete. For some archaic reason which I contribute to the voice that some had regarding not losing their chemist characters/spots, chemistry remains to be the only section of any department that anybody outside the CMO can not specialize within. Engineers can handle reactors, electrical, computers, atmospheric pipes (sometimes), etc. Researchers are permitted to be that of weapon, explosive, chemistry, technical, bluespace, etc. specialists. Security is a bit more bland as their differing divisions is between that of investigation and a general officer. Yet, when it comes to chemistry there is absolutely no leverage for any character if even reasonably explained to understand chemistry. This, as mentioned above, I solely contribute to the input some have had in keeping the position restricted in hopes of not making chemists 'obsolete.' Yet, this 'hope' of not making characters obsolete is entirely pointless as the rarity of chemists itself will/can not be resolved, attempting to protect the three chemists characters from being obsolete on the once in a month rounds they play is best put, stupid.

Resolution?

Surgeons are MDs who are specialists within surgical affairs, if we as 'claimed' in defense of chemistry want to follow realism, then surgeons should only be required to operate on the sections of the body they specialize in. Cardio, Neuro, etc. Yet, for gameplay benefit and overall round enjoyment by the player majority we forgo these 'realism' standards or 'HRP' values and permit surgeons to do everything and physicians to do very limited surgery. The same can be said be said for chemists which are permitted to operate Sleepers, cryo tubes, can assist in basic first aidm etc. Yet when it comes to anyone outside of the CMO having experience within chemistry it is heavily restricted, being that of a gamerule and something which staff strictly enforce and has been interpreted as 'powergaming.'

 

Thus, I recommend a change that would resolve both issues noted. Physicians being inadequate and having this weird spot within the Infirmary where EMTs basically do their job for them and surgeons do the rest. Physicians will be permitted and code-changed chemistry access, their wiki page will be updated to say physicians (if the character chooses and can logically explain backround wise) that their character is chemistry competent, can produce the chems and fill pharmacy orders. However, they should refrain from producing an insane stock of chemicals and all the 'advanced' forms that chemists would. One bottle of Peridaxon is fine, but four and another four of Apidemencia is a stretch. If a pharmacist character is to arrive on round? They take authority of the lab and the physician leaves the remaining work to them immediately, ensuring the role is not 'obsolete.' This thus resolves in the most simplistic way the concerns of the role (which is never played anyways) obsolete, the lack of chemists and thus medications as physicians (not surgeons) will be able to get a basic stock produced for them and the EMTs, and brainmed gameplay will not be hellish as it has been for the past month since we can use the chemicals that the system is mostly reliant on.

 

Why don't we just change the chemist job?

Chemistry is busy-work, its as simple as that. There are suggestions of making medications orderable from supply? What if we don't have Supply and Command is busy? As much as character interaction is beneficial, more character interaction and better gameplay will occur if this 'busy-work' is resolved by one of the already present medical physicians so the round can continue on. When it comes to chemistry, relying on outside department support tends to loop us back to the issue that we never have chems because the role is absent. 

 

My opinion?

Bay did this a while ago and saw a major improvement in medical gameplay and quality of life. Chemists as a role still exist, for the three who wish to play such, otherwise the player base overall is not punished when those three are not playing as the physician can see to producing the basic stock. Furthermore, for a game/community that uses realism as an argument so heavily in support of chemistry, we are in a setting four-hundred years in the future. None of us have the slightest idea as to what physicians/doctors may know, how medications are produced, etc. in the future. Best form to follow is that of Star Trek physicians/practioneers, they synthesize and produce their own meds, we should do the same, it is simple and leads to the best gameplay without any obstacle.

 

[Marlon P.]

This is a good proposal. Medbay works best when there's enough overlap to let it function even with some job slots empty. Chemistry is the last remaining slot thats stayed specialized to the point of being both inactive as a job while also being vital to departmental functioning.

Its the only medical job i couldnt touch when i did the first medbay reform because of a heightened protectiveness people had to the job.

 

Hopefully that culture has changed enough for the ops suggestion. 

[Alfa1561]

I have no issue with this suggestion. I played chemist a little to learn the role, but I haven't since because as described, its a lot of busywork for 30 minutes and then not much else. While I appreciate that some would fear the role being made redundant and it is a valid concern, giving the chemist/pharmacist the authority over the pharmacy when they're in-round is a perfectly suitable way of settling that issue, and making sure physicians don't just make all the meds needed out the gate also helps with this. I've seen multiple rounds where people go entirely untreated for certain issues because it can only be solved via medicine the pharmacist makes, a pharmacist that isn't in round. This would help keep the gameplay flowing and hopefully ease the pressure on a department that is easily one of the most crucial and often overworked departments in the game.

[Confused rock]

I guess I don't play medical here, but you mention bay and how bay did this. I know the chemistry systems probably have some differences, but having done medical a *lot* on bay, the effect wasn't perfect. Playing physician, the most dreaded part of the shift was making all the chems everyone demanded, and there were still next to no chemists. Perhaps consider giving medical a basic stock of "essential" chemicals instead? If pharmacist was less demanding, and they were more focused on restocks/making specialist chems, perhaps the role would be more enjoyable, though I suppose it's still in essence tedium.

TLDR; my qualifications are dubious but maybe just remove the busywork entirely and give medical free stock of the important chems. Then pharmacist will be more attractive as your first 30 minutes of the round won't be agony.

If you don't do that though I think this is the next best thing!

Edited May 4, 2022 by Confused rock

[Myazaki]

1 hour ago, Hunt said:

Things!

 

I agree with the suggestion overall, I think. Usually I've seen the Chemist role fall to a cyborg player, (or my AI in emergencies) and it hasn't been that fun for the cyborg to be ordered to do chemistry for half an hour. 

This suggestion doesn't help the Chemists, though... maybe chemist players can think of something to add for it, or else it could be changed to some sort of alt-title for Physician (something other than Chemist idk what it would be called).

Some points I want to comment on though:

Quote

There are suggestions of making medications orderable from supply? What if we don't have Supply

This is more of a tangent about game design relating to supply, and not super relevant to the suggestion: If there are no members of a department on board, it's okay for the ship to feel the lack of them -- If we have no medical, no engineering, no security, then we notice it. I get it might be awkward for medical to not have the tools they need, but not everyone needs to have the tools to solve every problem every time.

I'm still going to look at adding some of the basic and mid-tier chems to Supply for any situations where a Chemist/Physician for whatever reason isn't present/making chems/medical is exploded.

 

51 minutes ago, Confused rock said:

Perhaps consider giving medical a basic stock of "essential" chemicals instead? If pharmacist was less demanding, and they were more focused on restocks/making specialist chems, perhaps the role would be more enjoyable, though I suppose it's still in essence tedium.
 

I don't think increasing the amount of tools medical has at round-start is a good move. It is already quite well equipped to handle common injuries. I would prefer they be given more routes to get what they need than just be given it. The Chemist role would have even less to do, too.

[Boggle08]

Hi, I exclusively play Pharmacist.

I don't see why there should be a place for the pharmacist in your plan, due to the nature of your proposal. Quantitative restrictions are going to be thrown out the window when medical gets pressured. The ones that you need to make in order to fulfill deficiencies in a physician/FR roster don't need to be made in bulk. Putting restrictions on these would completely defeat the purpose of this thread.

Apidemencia, Pneumalin, Dexalin+, Adrenaline, Peridaxon, Mortaphentyl, and Alkysine. These are the important stabilizers medical is naked without, and this is half of my work as a pharmacist. One bottle of Adrenaline and Pneumalin completely fills every autoinhaler and autoinjector that's provided in the pharmacist locker. You're never going to need more than two or three bottles of most of these chemicals, with the exception of Dexalin and Mortaphentyl. 

Unless we make another Giga-chungus permission chart for what you can and can't make as a physician, Making the restriction tied to plausibility and records is not a restriction. I can, and will, make whatever I want because I'll just make a character that can feasibly do whatever I want.

Lastly, the pharmacist's work on paper is just to stock the shelves. That's it. There is some tolerance for us to do GTR work, but you have to defer as much work as you can to the physicians or else you're going to get dirty looks, escalating up to intervention from the moderation. Unless I start the round as a pharmacist, most of the important work is going to be done before I join in; if medical has a beefy roster, I'm going to spend a lot of it sitting on my hands. More than I already do.

The biggest reason why I like playing digital chemistry line cook is because my work matters. This proposal is just going to make the pharmacist into a vague utility if they don't join close to the start of the round. Why not remove them, and defer their old responsibilities to the Physician? 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Boggle08

[Hunt]

Right concerning everything above, here are some general changes I suppose,

 

First off, I know a very few of the player population exclusively play Pharmacist. I am aware that there is no solution to changing chemistry and resolving this issue that does not 'somewhat' make the position obsolete. However, for the very few that do play pharmacists those one or fewer rounds per day that a chemist is in the laboratory does certainly not make up for the absence of chemists and thus medication. Furthermore, quantitative restrictions were suggested as that is what we currently use for all the 'realism' restrictions that the Infirmary is heavily forced to follow. 

While the list of medications also included in your opinion is fairly just, I must reiterate that having those one round out of the six or so that occur each afternoon is not worth making the chemist role somewhat/obsolete. 

 

I will be honest, I am in favor of removing chemist or making the title alternate to the intern position so we can have trainee chemists. However, this will never work as those who do main pharmacist will directly oppose such, as is fine/expected. The simplest solution I can find to the problem is giving physicians, a role which is already obsolete when both EMTs and surgeons are present, the ability to handle chemistry. If a chemist player joins late, they can finish the remaining stock, otherwise with all due respect they should have readied up or joined in the first five minutes. Its a simple solution and simplistic solutions always seem to be the best.

 

[Boggle08]

59 minutes ago, Hunt said:

I will be honest, I am in favor of removing chemist 

Then advocate for that instead. I don't mind upgrading my pharmacist to physician at all, and the alt titles you're describing would allow people to grandfather characters that don't want to do that. Your proposal is going to make the pharmacist as an individual role obsolescent either way, draping it in half measures isn't going to change that.

 

If you aren't going to do that, then I have a counter proposal in the form of a list of compounds that would be reasonable for physicians to produce without making the pharmacist totally worthless:

Bicardine

Kelotane

Peridaxon

Cryoxadone and Cloneaxadone

Innaprovaline

Dexalin(Normal dexalin)

Dylovene

Alkysine

Thetamyacin

This selection will be able to mostly cover gaps in medical when there's only physicians, and the access to peridaxon and cryochemicals means that you'll be using that as an alternative to organ surgery you can't cover with your surgery chart. No more than this. Interdependence is a crucial element of medical's design, and this will facilitate it without making the pharmacist unnecessary. 

ADDENDUM: No prescriptions either. That's strictly pharmacist turf.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Boggle08

[Hunt]

Right, I seem to have misunderstood your initial response as what you just stated was practically my initial idea. I do disagree and do not want to see the use ofc Kelotane/Bicaridine. But, my initial idea was and is that physicians have access to make all general medications. A list can easily be composed as to what is general and what is advanced. So I mostly agree with you, but,

I genuinely can not see all this effort and the reasoning behind protecting a role that so few play. I understand some really do enjoy pharmacist for their one round a day and that's great, but when that chemist player isnt there, the entire laboratory is useless and punished the gameplay/fun for the rest of us. I suppose it can be viewed as for the greater good and for more enjoyable gameplay by the community as a whole, chemistry being gatekept should stop. Nevertheless, I am in agreement that for now just separating what chems are general and what are advanced to show what physicians can produce and what chemists can produce is a simple solution to this problem.

[Boggle08]

1 hour ago, Hunt said:

I genuinely can not see all this effort and the reasoning behind protecting a role that so few play. 

I'm actually not that attached to the role, if it means I can just move my character into physician and do what they normally do + surgery steps. If you opened this thread asking for them to be removed and have their responsibilities merged with physician, I wouldn't mind. I don't like the wishy-washy idea of the pharmacist still existing, but the physician being able to completely step in and make everything medical needs to function optimally. Cut out the middleman. Ask for the pharmacist to be removed.

 

If we're going to keep the pharmacist like what your initial post implies, I want there to be a solid reason to have it besides "flavor" or "delegation." When medical is just me and first responders, there's obvious gaps in what we can heal with our roster, and what we're able to achieve is a consequence of our mutual cooperation and skillsets. There's limitations to how well a lone surgeon can stabilize or dress wounds of the patients they receive. Physicians are generalists, and while I'm fine with the idea of them being able to make the chemicals I listed, I don't want them to be able to completely replace a pharmacist. This is equivalent to surgeons behaving like superdoctors and hogging GTR patients.

 

TL;DR: It makes no logical sense to have the pharmacist exist if you're going to make them 100% replaceable with the physician. Either go all in and advocate for their removal, or have a plan for these guys to still be useful to medical.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Boggle08

[RisingValiant]

I'm in complete agreement with that list you made, hell I'd even remove Peridaxon from the list. It gives a reason for physicians and pharmacists to be compelling, where physicians right now are often completely superfluous and pharmacists are so restricted as to be next to necessary. I generally play a surgeon but it's absolutely hellish not having basic meds, the amount of time someone just dies because we have no way to properly treat them is frustrating. Too much of med hinges on this one role. 

I'm honestly in favor of pretty much removing anything from that list that deals with phoron at all, and adding dexalin bottles to the nanomeds. It makes sense that a pharmacist would have specialized training or certifications for handling phoron so as to not blow everything up. And anything requiring complex meds to create being a general no-go.

If I were to suggest a list, it would look like this:

Bicaridine

Kelotane

Inaprovaline

Dylovene

Tricordrazine

Coagzolug

 

With this change I'd also add dexalin bottles to the nanomeds. I'm in favor of general physicians being the only ones allowed to make these besides pharmacists and the CMO, under penalty of suspension or demotion if done without permission. With non-pharmacy CMOs maybe having access to that original list you suggested.

In general I think medical needs to get expanded in what it can do. In general I want something to do in my downtime that isn't staring at sensors, I want first responders to have non-chemical stablization options, as a surgeon I want more than just being a physician with surgery permission, and physician is largely superfluous in many situations. 

Pharmacists need something that isn't just being a glorified vending machine as well, and I think chemistry in general should be more complex, it should reflect the RP restrictions and regulations mechanically. As a pharmacist I have never once used the chemical heater, the analyze function of the chemistry machine feels quite pointless, the mass spectrometer does a better job than the machine with the analyze function, the reagent scanner is almost never used and the chemistry codex suffers from a lack of useful information about the actual medicines. I feel like it should at least show overdose thresholds and symptoms, plus side effects. Why am I pulling up the wiki guide and not the in universe codex supposedly designed for this purpose? Why is this supposedly dangerous job lacking any actual mechanical danger as long as you don't spill phoron and aren't making pryotechnics? Chemistry is consistently described to be dangerous and pharmacists are restricted to the moon and back because of specific education and training they recieve in their degree, which they recieve because it is a high skill role, allegedly. Yet in game it is quite possible the single least dangerous medical profession, and cooking is more mechanically complex.

Chemistry is, in my opinion, nearly impossible to screw up, and I believe that's a problem, I can't burn myself with acids or gas myself with a toxic mixture unless I'm actively trying to do so. The chemistry gameplay loop is just making the same chemicals every shift, in the same amounts, at the same times, the same way. And there isn't any care needed to do it either. If I'm mixing a chemical that bubbles I should need a mask and safety glasses so I don't gas myself with toxic fumes, or get acidic fluid in my eyes. If I'm handling phoron, or mixing with it, there should be some actual risk there given how otherwise dangerous phoron is, vials are completely pointless in pretty much any circumstance, and the only catalyst I can even think of is phoron. Why? It's this point of dissonance between the roleplay and lore portion, and the actual mechanical portion. Cooking shouldn't be easier to screw up than chemistry, and it is, and bartending shouldn't have more risk in it's gameplay than chemistry, which it absolutely does given the number of different ways you can poison someone, accidentally giving an unathi alcohol, for example. And a lot of this doesn't even make much sense in universe. If this medicine is part phoron, why is there not any cardox or anti-toxin involved to neutralize the toxic properties inherent to Phoron, or if not that, why do the side effects not reflect the prescence of Phoron? 

Basically I think the majority of the medical issues have relatively simple solutions, but chemistry is, in my opinion, in great need of an expansion to make the role more engaging and less one-note. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by RisingValiant

[Boggle08]

1 hour ago, RisingValiant said:

I'm in complete agreement with that list you made, hell I'd even remove Peridaxon from the list.

I chose peridaxon specifically because it can function as a less efficient stand in for the other specialized organ medicines we have. Peridaxon can fix a damaged heart, and it can fix broken lungs just as well if put into an auto-inhaler. I also put cryo chemicals up there, because you need to make them in order to make peridaxon, and because this will make using the cryo tube much more useful to a physician that doesn't have access to a surgeon or pharmacist.

I'm wary about the physician being able to make the fortified versions of bicardine, kelotane, and dexalin, because this is a huge bulk of the pharmacist's work. If a pharmacist late joins with this arrangement, it can take all these medicines and quickly fortify them, instead of having to make stuff from scratch. The longer heal time might make it harder to manage pain. If so, this can be accounted for by giving the GTR another bottle of mortaphentyl pills to compensate.

Coagzulog is easy. You just mix innaprovaline, dylovene, and cough syrup like you're making lean.

The idea with my list is to increase the amount of people the physician can effectively treat and stabilize, at the expense of speed and needing to rely on unorthodox  solutions. If there's no pharmacist, the physician can compliment a surgeon. If there's no surgeon, the pharmacist can compliment the physician. It would round out the physician as a generalist: jack of all trades, master of none.

1 hour ago, RisingValiant said:

adding dexalin bottles to the nanomeds.

This is cool, Dexalin is extremely hard on the acetone to make.

[RisingValiant]

7 hours ago, Boggle08 said:

I chose peridaxon specifically because it can function as a less efficient stand in for the other specialized organ medicines we have. Peridaxon can fix a damaged heart, and it can fix broken lungs just as well if put into an auto-inhaler. I also put cryo chemicals up there, because you need to make them in order to make peridaxon, and because this will make using the cryo tube much more useful to a physician that doesn't have access to a surgeon or pharmacist.

I'm wary about the physician being able to make the fortified versions of bicardine, kelotane, and dexalin, because this is a huge bulk of the pharmacist's work. If a pharmacist late joins with this arrangement, it can take all these medicines and quickly fortify them, instead of having to make stuff from scratch. The longer heal time might make it harder to manage pain. If so, this can be accounted for by giving the GTR another bottle of mortaphentyl pills to compensate.

My worry with peridaxon, and indeed anything requiring phoron, is it's an extremely hard to make chemical, requiring several compound medicines in order to create. The issue with this is that- logically - if someone can make peridaxon, they should be capable of making pretty much anything. Saline plus is an absolute cakewalk compared to peridaxon, pneumalin is too. And a physician can already treat the lungs and the heart through surgery, them having to use dylovene for the liver and kidneys is a fair trade-off in my mind. And peridaxon won't save a necrotic liver anymore than dylovene would. 

[Hunt]

Under this post you will find my advised list and what I personally believe, from experience playing medical outside of pharmacist. The left side, being general medications, is the entire list of resources/compounds that a physician should be capable of producing. The right side is that of advanced medications, this list contains everything only pharmacists can produce. 

 

The general issues I have found to note from the recent discussions above is concern, once again, about making pharmacist obsolete. The role is already obsolete post-thirty minutes, if a chemist late joins and somebody already saw to the basic stock, there should be no issue. Once again I reiterate that concerning oneself with gameplay and majority of all, being able to produce the basics such as Butazoline, Dermaline, Dexalin Plus, and Mortaphenyl greatly contributes to the experiences of both EMTs and Physicians along with the players they interact with during medical responses.

 

What I would like to remind those above is, chemist is not played. No matter the few who do main pharmacist, a majority of rounds go without a chemist, further punishing the players that do play during those periods. As I also said above, the role is already obsolete after the basics are made and its entire existence is that of busy work. The current list and suggestion is to provide chemist mains their slot to keep their character, so that they can still be useful in producing a wider variety of chemicals. In all honesty, I would rather see the role removed entirely and physicians just made the OG chemists, but I do not believe an absolute role removal to be in favor of some community members and thus this is the next best option. I get you want to keep chemists 'valuable', but placing them on this pedestal of them being the only to produce things like Dexaline Plus, Butazoline, Dermaline, etc. seems to just be an attempt at ensuring those players who have do play chemist once out of every ten rounds have more to do while the rest of us who play frequently without a chemist do not get the benefit of having those medications. 

 

I am also not in favor nor in any form support dexalin being a starting resource. Many chemists already power-rush the NanoMed Plus machine stock of Inaprovaline and Dylovene bottles to decrease their cartridge use in the laboratory itself, this would just occur with Dexalin and I am not a fan of it. The most frequently used medications in the Infirmary should be producible by the physician, their entire position is reliant around these noninvasive tools. We can label Butazoline, Dermaline, Dexalin Plus, Mortaphenyl as 'difficult' all we want, but they are the most used medications and forcing the player base to use the less effective compound because the rare two rounds a day chemists shouldn't feel obsolete is placing the enjoyment of others over what I at least see as the majority.

At the end of the day, a core concept of this issue is that people do not play pharmacist. It is busy work, it is thirty minutes of work and then your round consists of an hour and a half of RP with nothing else. I can for one say and I am sure I speak for others who have to play during the frequent pharmacist absences, it is not fun being limited because people do not play the boring role. If you want to play your pharmacist, join at rounds start. If you join an hour in, restock or make advanced medications. If you are there at round start the laboratory is yours, if you are not, you missed your chance to produce the basics and your absence does not punish the rest of us, that is how I see it. 

[Boggle08]

Advocate for removing the role instead. You by your own admission believe there's barely enough characters for the role to continue existing. Allowing the role to continue to exist when all the chems you listed in that physician list are pretty much my entire workload is a disingenuous compromise. I will never be behind this, unless you advocate for what you're actually asking for.

Moreover, with the physician being able to self supply like that, while the pharmacist still exists is a disgusting overstep into their lane. You'd throw a fit if I started hoarding the GTR as my pharmacist, same here applies in concept. The difference is the only way to step back out of my lane is if you were to dump the entire fridge.

I should also mention that being able to perform the surgery steps you can with the physician, in addition to being able to make that selection makes the physician extremely powerful and independent as a job role. There's very few problems you can't solve with a physician using a full chembelt. I can self supply and do GTR shit as a pharmacist, but it balances out, because I don't get surgery.

I know that having no pharmacist is crippling, and I at the very least want to see physicians manufacture some rudimentary chemicals to compensate, but this interdependency we have in the department is intentional. You're not supposed to do everything, and if the medbay isn't fully staffed, it's not supposed to be this perfect machine that is 100% stocked and ready for every injury on the planet ever. If there's gaps in the roster, improvise. If you don't have a hammer, use a rock. The division and interdependency in medical is not for "realism" reasons, but because people used to hoard work and gatekeep people who didn't follow a strict, clique meta out of being able to help.

We've been using this system for over a year or two now, and I've seen plenty of pharmacists. Population droughts or deficiencies come and go from departments as time wears on. Several months ago, engineering was so empty, they overcharged the master SMES to the point where no one even needed to set the engine. It turned out to be a bad decision and overturned. Now, it's bustling. The deficiencies you're seeing right now might just be a transient issue.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Boggle08

[Triogenix]

I'm not the best at putting my thoughts on topics like these into words, but what this essentially looks like is a band-aid solution to a root problem, the root problem being that pharmacist is agonizingly boring to play. An old pharmacist main once told me "I do the chemicals as fast as possible so I can get out and actually roleplay", this still seems to be the case, doing chems after your third round as pharmacist is just clicking buttons in a certain order you know by near heart, it's stupid and annoying. I would rather see the root problem fixed, then have a short sighted solution such as this merged. I don't have any ideas for this beyond ones that have been denied already, I haven't been playing much medical as of recent, and I apologize I can't be of more help besides pointing out issues with this suggestion. If I think of anything I'll be sure to throw it here or on another thread.

[Hunt]

So we either combine chemist to that of physician and thus remove chemist or we bandaid the problem, cause I have not seen nor personally have any recommendations to fixing the role which is inherently boring on most servers. So I suppose, is there anybody against it being removed?

[Boggle08]

Removing the role and redistributing the work is the most straightforward solution. The amount of time it takes to stock the fridge will probably get halved on average, since you're now more likely to get two physicians to tag team the dispensers. My only concern then would be addressing the potential powercreep that would come from this solution.

For the pharmacist to stay, they need to provide some other service or utility that doesn't come from a chemical dispenser, besides putting on a belt and turning into a spare medical intern.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Boggle08

[Ramke]

I'm a pharmacist main.

Instead of letting physicians start doing chems and complicating it even further by forcing medical to be even more of a red/green spreadsheet of who can and can't do what, I would suggest looking for alternatives such as adding a "medicine package" to Operations cargo orders, so the department could purchase chems if there is no chemist available that round. It could also be considered to just have a random set of chems at the start of the round in storage, but not something that would invalidate the pharmacist role.

Alternatively, I would be in favour of merging the pharmacist and physician roles. That would solve the pharmacist's job ending in the first 20 minutes, and the lack of access to chems for physicians that cause trouble during rounds where no pharmacist is present. Pharmacist-physicians (pharmaceuticalist, chemical practitioner or w/e other fictional name) could be permitted to produce chems and act as a general practitioner, while the "normal" physician would retain the ability to perform non-advanced surgery. This is somewhat already the case, but in the current "meta", pharmacists are likely going to get struck down for treating patients in GTR when there's someone else available. I would imagine this would encourage players to pick between they would want to attend GTR and produce chems, or attend GTR and assist with surgery. Basically a pharmacist power creep that would turn it into an alternative to physician, with the same priorities for treating patients.

[RisingValiant]

I'm very much in favor of offering a boost to the pharmacist role like Ramke described, where they're permitted to go into the GTR and help treat people. On the other hand Hunt I think the list you suggested is absolutely absurd, at the current moment that's beyond what a CMO can produce and it's far and beyond what I think is even remotely reasonable.

[Hunt]

Right a few more things to address,

 

1. CMOs are not limited by any means outside of a players personal preference as to what they can produce, that list of 'general' is actually what most CMOs produce, the basics as defined by the chemistry wiki. Unsure where you got this idea or basis that CMOs are limited at all.

 

2. Because pharmacist players do not want to see their role made obsolete and rather have the role merged with that of physician, I will go through with that.

 

3. Pharmacists are allowed to help in the GTR on a request basis, if the CMO or another physicians asks for your help, you are permitted, that is already written on the Pharmacist job-guide page.

 

4. With no offense to any suggestions specifically, pursuing resolutions to this problem that over-complicate or make the problem more compound than it is I am not in favor for, personally. As I mentioned and stated above, reliance on an outside role for your job to function especially a role that is an entirely different department usually results in your gameplay enjoyment being tarnished.

 

Simplest answer you have all agreed on is merging Physician to Pharmacist, so I suppose thats why ill PR. Please, do remember that while you main pharmacist, you may be only playing one to two rounds a day at maximum. This usually results in a serious absence of pharmacists. I completely understand you main and enjoy the roll, what the issue is what do we do when you are not there, that being a majority of the time. Please, try and look at this from a lens of the gameplay and players in the round overall outside of the pharmacist role which rely on medical which relies on pharmacy, which is usually absent.

 

At the end of the day, I have played roughly two rounds within the afternoon per day on average the past five days. That is ten rounds within the past five days, two of which I can remember having a pharmacist. 20% of the time a pharmacist is there would, in my opinion, is a fair percentage to the overall player experience, that laboratory is usually empty.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Hunt

[Lucaken]

Removing the role entirely, even with alternatives introduced (like giving physicians their duties) just feels like we're moving the problem, not actually fixing it. There may be physicians in this thread and in-game that feel perfectly fine spending their first 30 minutes making meds like the late chemists did, but I guarantee you it will not last. 

We should consider any option that doesn't involve butchering the role structure before anything else. I personally support Ramke's basic medical package from cargo - it's flexible to alleviate rounds without chemists at the start and can still have chemists latejoin to make complex stuff. We can then at least consider longer-term options for 'fixing' chemistry, AKA making it not boring.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Lucaken

[RisingValiant]

I also feel like merging the role makes phys really super-doctory. There are already some rounds where I do literally nothing as a surgeon, rounds where there are injuries, it's just 90% of my job can be done more easily with chems. Brain damage? alky, punctured lung? pneumalin. I think part of the problem is how chemistry is basically just making the one fix to any problem and then you're done. I think it's just way way too simple right now to be engaging long-term. And what happens if someone comes to the GTR and the phys is busy making chems? either way something's getting neglected. 

[Hunt]

Based on a recent discussion of such in relay, going to bring up and hope we can all agree here.

Those who play pharmacist do not want the role gone, I understand.

Those who play surgeon do not want to be obsolete, I understand.

Those in and outside medical do not want physicians to become mary-sue, I understand.

Adding the basics to supply extends the reliance issue to that of supply for physician/EMT to enjoy their role.

What if, in the CMOs office is a locked wall locker that starts with 4x of every basic medicine and 1x of some advanced medications and the locker is called 'Emergency Medical Stock'. Which chemists/players can ignore if chemists are on-duty and can be used for the frequent rounds without a chemist. This ensures pharmacists still have a slot and can restock the missing emergency supplies, surgeons will not be obsolete as only the basics will be there, physician won't have chemistry access but will have the medicines to make them useful.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Hunt

[RisingValiant]

That sounds fine to me