120 Seconds to Mutiny - Zulu's half-complaint about end of round chaos

[Zulu0009]

BYOND Key: Zulu0009
Game ID: ciV-dGHs
Player Byond Key/Character name: Shirin Abbasi (I think), partially Karl Voigt
Staff involved: None, unless the players of those characters are staff
Reason for complaint:
After being given a strike on the relay for briefly complaining about the issue, I was told to make a complaint. At the very end of the round, when it's usually preferred to not do anything major, my character, C.S.S.U. 32 Detective, was arrested for mutiny and mistreated because of miscommunication, which I am complaining about because, frankly, it feels like sometimes people will pull off something big just before the round ends, since it won't be canon anyway and the round is ending. I will now take you through a timeline of events during that round.

It's a vampire round, it's a mess. A reporter seems to be writing stories following one of the vampires. Hell breaks loose, there's fights everywhere, the security team is ordered to arrest the reporter for mutiny, key word during this entire complaint. They are detained, brought in and when the Warden asks me "What crime?" I tell him "There's no basis for mutiny. Sedition." technically, I, an investigator, have no basis to arrest someone or charge them, so the Warden either didn't know this, assumed I was relaying the HOS' orders, or took my suggestion. Right after, I say in the radio: "We're doing sedition for the reporter, since there's no basis for mutiny." to which there is no response. After the Warden asks if the reporter can write from the brig and the HOS says no, I ask playfully "Is it no for sedition or for reporting in the brig?" also to ensure that it was clear that the reporter was being charged with sedition, not mutiny. No response. Why was I adamant on him not being charged with mutiny? Because he had not been doing anything that falls under, or justifies mutiny, and it didn't make sense for me or my character to say "sure, sentence this guy to death by marooning because he wrote some articles," and despite that, I did not charge them myself. Because I can't. Like, physically, I cannot.

The round goes on, fifteen minutes pass, the bluespace jump passes too. I have had no interactions or involvement with the reporter at this point aside from suggesting sedition as a charge, calling them bald as a fellow bald (IPC gang) and casual conversation. The reporter is released because the time is up (I later realized that someone thought I released them prematurely, I did not). The HOS finds out, and I tell them that they weren't charged for mutiny, because there were no grounds, and specifically said "Fight me over it" because it fit the character. The HOS storms over, yelling, and tells me I'm suspended for my insubordination, despite the fact that I, an investigator, cannot charge people with crimes, and the Warden did all the work. I am then arrested over failure to comply, so I calmly follow the Warden into a room to take my things, see previous sentence. My charge is then moved from that, to aiding and abetting, to mutiny, because I had the gull to joke and lightly jab the HOS for such a bogus charge based on an actual mistake. See previous sentences. Karl Voigt then comes in, not sure why, calls me useless and tells me I should be killed ("Should be able to remove your positronic") even though my character and his have never met, and leaves. The Warden takes my things and right before the round ends, states that he's not sure he wants to charge me, after I recite the mutiny charge description word by word (I am a law enforcement synthetic after all). The Warden and I have a laugh when I say "Oh, this is the part where I hand over my badge and gun to the brass" and call him punk. Best Warden.

Now, I'm completely fine with corruption, bad policing, discrimination, whatever, because it's fun and it creates drama. In fact, I was over this mishap five minutes after it ended, the strike on the relay came after I said that I was done and I didn't care (the strike was warranted, I bitched too much lol). But the thing that kinda pisses me off is: would this have happened in the middle of the round? Would this HOS have charged me for mutiny and sentenced me to marooning or cyborgification at one hour into the round? Sure, one could argue that yes, it'd have been fun to see how the security and the ship would react, but if the XO was fine with it without even knowing what happened, damn, my odds are fucked. I guess this complaint is partially a vent and partially me saying, hey, can we not do this shit again? Please don't start something like this at the end of the round, like, literally the last 120 seconds of the round. If you wanna do the bad cop and try to charge someone like that, find another round. If your character is too angry and NEEDS to punish someone "too much" and charge them like that, maybe break character and don't do it. In addition, would they have done it if the round was canon? If the Detective IPC was now actually charged with mutiny? Would that character have risked a corporate hearing and possibly jail time for that mess just because they were too pissed off?

Once again, this isn't a complaint meant to ask for punishment, just trying to wave in the wind and ask that end of round stuff is avoided, because 90% of the time it feels exaggerated and memey. I have nothing against the person who plays the HOS, if they just got too angry, that's cool, if they actually stand by this... damn, HOS is ruthless, and very uncaring of her career lol; personally I'm fine, I was just a little pissed off because it felt like I was suddenly the enemy of the ship with two heads of staff insulting me, being charged with mutiny for effectively doing nothing - just a lot of stuff that could have been avoided had the HOS just asked like, two questions, but other than that, this is water under the bridge. Just water that I hope doesn't pass under it again, you know?
Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? No, I was too busy trying to talk while the HOS raised my charges and while I was having my things taken from me, plus, literally the last 120 seconds.
Approximate Date/Time: 16/07/2022 at roughly 0400 (glorious GMT+2)

[MattAtlas]

Here are our rules on end of round conflict:

Quote

Security is allowed to conduct legitimate arrests during End of Round procedures. This includes performing arrests on the escape shuttle.

Conflict is permitted to continue elsewhere on the station, and in the escape-arm/shuttle if there's prior roleplay involved.

Therefore, this entire debacle happening at round end does not really break the rules if it has proper reasoning.

I will say, from a cursory look of the complaint, it does seem like the charge on you was justified. However, @Faye <3 could you please comment on your side of events (specifically, why a mutiny charge was chosen, and why the IPC was charged with aiding and abetting instead of something else)?

8 hours ago, Zulu0009 said:

The HOS finds out, and I tell them that they weren't charged for mutiny, because there were no grounds, and specifically said "Fight me over it" because it fit the character. The HOS storms over, yelling, and tells me I'm suspended for my insubordination, despite the fact that I, an investigator, cannot charge people with crimes

It is not really a good look for you to say "fight me over it" to a HoS. Under any circumstance ever this would have gotten you arrested. The rest of your sentence does make it seem like you were specifically aiding the detainee by going around a HoS' order and suggesting a new charge.

[restricted]

Karl's player here. He suggested mutiny because under his understanding Zulu had watched the Reporter, who at this point had been brigged and set free at least three times (all of which while 32 was active) be set free by the janitor bot. Karl suggested it because he was tired of bullshit, it was allowed under aiding and abetting, and most importantly after a chaotic round where near every single antag had to be viciously murdered, two security officers were lost, and he felt his own life at danger multiple, he was just done being nice. There's a point where corporate regulations get fuzzy. That entire round was fuzzy and 32 decided to be a piece of shit to Abbasi during it.

If I can go on a tangent however of what I have seen of 32 the character tends to ignore security or authority figures and attempt to achieve its own goals. The character does not tend to work with the department and this sort of action is perfectly in character for them.

Edited July 16, 2022 by restricted
I did in fact have more to say

[Faye <3]

Hi, sure. I can go over this and give my thoughts.

11 hours ago, Zulu0009 said:

Warden asks me "What crime?" I tell him "There's no basis for mutiny. Sedition." technically, I, an investigator, have no basis to arrest someone or charge them, so the Warden either didn't know this, assumed I was relaying the HOS' orders, or took my suggestion. Right after, I say in the radio: "We're doing sedition for the reporter, since there's no basis for mutiny." to which there is no response. After the Warden asks if the reporter can write from the brig and the HOS says no, I ask playfully "Is it no for sedition or for reporting in the brig?" also to ensure that it was clear that the reporter was being charged with sedition, not mutiny. No response.

There was no reply because that round was extremely chaotic and busy, in addition to my being a mod and all of the logs and such that come with it. Sometimes I miss things. 

11 hours ago, Zulu0009 said:

I released them prematurely, I did not). The HOS finds out, and I tell them that they weren't charged for mutiny, because there were no grounds, and specifically said "Fight me over it" because it fit the character. The HOS storms over, yelling, and tells me I'm suspended for my insubordination, despite the fact that I, an investigator, cannot charge people with crimes, and the Warden did all the work.

You were charged because it was you who convinced the Warden to disobey orders and downgrade the charge to sedition instead of mutiny. You may not be able to charge people, but it was you who repeatedly told the warden what to charge the reporter with against orders. Command decided that all infected (read, vampires and their supporters) were to be charged with mutiny. The reporter was not violent himself, no, but he was supporting the violence through his broadcasts and support of the antags. You purposefully and intentionally lowered a mutineer's sentence (resulting in his release!) against direct Head of Department orders because you personally disagreed, and then told the Head of Security to "fight you over it" and now you're surprised you wound up being charged?  I originally had 32 suspended and charged with failure to comply with orders, but Voight suggested Mutiny given 32 aided and abetted someone who was themselves charged with mutiny and their actions resulted in someone who was supposed to be HuT for a severe crime walking free. Persuading the warden to drop it to a sedition charge also put a lot of suspicion on your character, given some people in the crew had become compromised and supported the antagonists. Given the multiple officers lost, several dead antagonists, and shoot-outs in the hallways, Shirin felt this was fair given the gravity of the situation. 

[Zulu0009]

4 hours ago, restricted said:

Karl's player here. He suggested mutiny because under his understanding Zulu had watched the Reporter, who at this point had been brigged and set free at least three times (all of which while 32 was active) be set free by the janitor bot. Karl suggested it because he was tired of bullshit, it was allowed under aiding and abetting, and most importantly after a chaotic round where near every single antag had to be viciously murdered, two security officers were lost, and he felt his own life at danger multiple, he was just done being nice. There's a point where corporate regulations get fuzzy. That entire round was fuzzy and 32 decided to be a piece of shit to Abbasi during it.

I had no idea that happened? I remember it freed the janitor, but I told it to let him go and security dragged him back into a cell. And yeah, I know 32 is a dick, I've come to enjoy the fact that he's the character to be contrarian and always speaks out, even if I still don't 100% like him in the first place. I've had negative feedback so I'm considering scrapping it and trying something else.

3 hours ago, Faye &lt;3 said:

You may not be able to charge people, but it was you who repeatedly told the warden what to charge the reporter with against orders.

I told him once, as I quoted, "There's no basis for mutiny," after that I went and sat in the lobby.

3 hours ago, Faye &lt;3 said:

You purposefully and intentionally lowered a mutineer's sentence (resulting in his release!) against direct Head of Department orders because you personally disagreed, and then told the Head of Security to "fight you over it" and now you're surprised you wound up being charged?

I am surprised, yeah! I didn't lower the sentence, the Warden is still the only one who could lol, I don't know why I was charged and not the Warden! I'm kind of convinced I'm working off a different definition of mutiny, it's still "To openly rebel against or attempt to remove command staff with violent intent." right? From a legal standpoint, the aiding and abetting clause wouldn't have made sense either, since the reporter was free and had not been charged with mutiny, but that's kind of complicated in the heat of the moment, I guess. I'm still not sure why everyone thinks that 32 was somehow the source of the problem because of one suggestion that the Warden took honestly. I mean, it's right here:

3 hours ago, Faye &lt;3 said:

it was you who convinced the Warden to disobey orders

You even recognize that it was the Warden who disobeyed orders. Was it because 32 said "fight me over it" that all of this started?

The other, bigger problem is another clause that's near the aiding and abetting:

"Positronic intelligences are not protected by capital punishment laws. Those charged with red level infractions may be at risk of being dismantled or destroyed."

The reason 32 was acting cocky is because, from its point of view, you suspended it, then arrested it, then charged it with mutiny because it suggested "hey we should lower the charge to sedition," essentially sentencing it to death because it had convinced someone to disobey and order. If anything, it should have reacted more aggressively in self-preservation. I can see where the aiding would be taken from, but damn man, this all started because he told someone else not to get a guy in the brig with the threat of marooning lol

I was going to drop this issue and in fact, was thinking of deleting this post, but the way Matt responded saying that this was a justified arrest confused me. It seems like everyone forgot that the Warden was in the equation too and decided to put all the blame on 32, who had been essentially absent from the round and had done nothing during it. I'm still holding my ground because I'm a law student and I must prove I am correct every time the law is involved, obviously.

[Faye <3]

17 hours ago, Zulu0009 said:

They are detained, brought in and when the Warden asks me "What crime?" I tell him "There's no basis for mutiny. Sedition." technically, I, an investigator, have no basis to arrest someone or charge them, so the Warden either didn't know this, assumed I was relaying the HOS' orders, or took my suggestion.

You admit here you used the chaotic situation and subsequent messy communication of the round to let the warden think the sedition charge was from me. Should the Warden have listened to you? No. Did the Warden make a mistake? Yes. But this would not have happened without your intervention. You admit your character is a dick, and contrarian. One of the core elements of playing an IPC is that the laws are usually biased against you. Instead of expecting people to indulge your character and lessen the punishment because of it's severity, you should try to incorporate the knife-edge legal system that IPCs exist in and have them be much more careful with their actions given the regulations harsh stance on IPCs.  I stand by my decisions.

Additionally,

Mutiny covers not only the physical action, but advocating and supporting it. You aided someone who was meant to be HuT on mutiny charges, which makes you guilty also.

[MattAtlas]

Quote

 SAY: Teddybehr/(Karl Voigt) : (Ceti Basic) Actually Mutiny. Mutiny fits better. Kolokov was talking about dominating the ship.

This is Voigt's reasoning for the mutiny charge, mentioned IC. This definitely fits, so I'm not sure why the charge was contested.

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SAY: PersephoneQ/(Shirin Abbasi) : (Ceti Basic) Reporter&#39;s being charged with mutinyy for supporitng Kolokov.

This is Abbasi's reasoning for charging the reporter. This also fits because, as described on the corp regs wiki:

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Aiding and abetting a criminal makes you an accomplice; you can be charged with the same crime as the person you aided and abetted.

Then, Abbasi says this, I presume, on security comms:

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 SAY: PersephoneQ/(Shirin Abbasi) : (Ceti Basic) Mutiny for reporter, given he supported Kolokov.

And here are CSSU's objections:

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SAY: Zulu0009/(C.S.S.U. 32 Detective) : (Ceti Basic) Are we sure about <i>mutiny</i> too? That&#39;s a death sentence. Literally.

SAY: Zulu0009/(C.S.S.U. 32 Detective) : (Ceti Basic) HOS said mutiny, there&#39;s no basis for mutiny.

SAY: GladiatorGames123/(Sevastian Yevgeniy) : (Ceti Basic) <i>Right.</i>

Note here that the warden didn't object, neither did CSSU. Both of them knew what they were doing and they were aware of the HoS' orders.

[The reporter gets freed sometime here.]

SAY: PersephoneQ/(Shirin Abbasi) : (Ceti Basic) OH MY GODDD.

SAY: PersephoneQ/(Shirin Abbasi) : (Ceti Basic) Now the fucking reporter is loose and the borg released and prisoner and -

Zulu0009/(C.S.S.U. 32 Detective) : (Ceti Basic) The reporter was freed- yeah, fifteen minutes.

SAY: XXX/(Fleur LaCasse) : (Ceti Basic) -supposed to be free? For mutiny?

SAY: XXX/(Fleur LaCasse) : (Ceti Basic) Mutiny is HuT!
SAY: GladiatorGames123/(Sevastian Yevgeniy) : (Ceti Basic) Sedition.
SAY: Zulu0009/(C.S.S.U. 32 Detective) : (Ceti Basic) They are <i>not</i>

SAY: PersephoneQ/(Shirin Abbasi) : (Ceti Basic) MUTINY!

SAY: PersephoneQ/(Shirin Abbasi) : (Ceti Basic) THEY ARE!

SAY: Zulu0009/(C.S.S.U. 32 Detective) : (Ceti Basic) No.

SAY: Zulu0009/(C.S.S.U. 32 Detective) : (Ceti Basic) Fight me over it.

SAY: Zulu0009/(C.S.S.U. 32 Detective) : (Ceti Basic) And I refused because it&#39;s a dumb order.

It seems to me like you did a lot more than "being absent from the round" and "I only said mutiny doesn't freed once". You knew that they were to be charged with mutiny, you directly objected to it (as you were speaking to the warden that was charging the prisoner), the head of security told you that it should have been mutiny, you doubled down on it, then the HoS repeated that it should have been mutiny, you doubled down on it again, and said "Fight me". You can definitely be charged as a co-conspirator here, if all you had was a "moral objection", why on Earth did you triple down like this? As for the warden, it is kind of hard for security to charge them too when you're being so flagrant about this. In their minds you were probably the brain behind the sedition charge, so to speak. I'm sure the warden would've been investigated if it wasn't round end too, but I don't think they had the time or mental capacity to do that at the same time as your arrest.

So, I am ruling this complaint as a non-issue. It will be locked in 24 hours.

[Zulu0009]

I guess I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree, it was a chaotic round but it felt completely unreasonable; the character of 32 has been scrapped anyway since it was generally poorly received and poorly made, so, I guess in the end he did get scrapped. RIP.

[MattAtlas]

Archiving.