Gordan Slaveman Posted August 5, 2022 Posted August 5, 2022 (edited) BYOND Key: Gordan Slaveman Staff BYOND Key: Wickedcybs Game ID: N/A Reason for complaint: Well I was just trying to play a bit of an asshole and saw a character that genuinely looked like they had a mustache, it turned out they were wearing lipstick so I made an insulting remark and said I thought they had a mustache, after a few comments back and fourth I proceeded to say "Oh, then you must be a transgender person then, my bad." after this, I apologised icly after they threatened to beat me up and I walked away. A little while later I got a pm by wickedcybs asking me why I said that, and I just told them it was ic, and didn't understand why it was being made an ooc issue. I remained polite and in no way insulted or attempted to insult the staff member. To cut a long conversation short, I basically told them I understood that, any insults that could be considered transphobic on the server or offensive to someone oocly are not allowed, and would not do that again. Although, I tried to bring up the fact that what someone finds offensive is relitive, and felt like I was on thin ice, I even told them this. A little while later, I see a woman who looked like she had a hitler mustache due to the fact her hair and lipstick matched perfectly, I went out of my way to ask wicked if it was alright for me to mention this to her, or if it would be considered transphobic. They told me not to, and I thought that was that, easy peasy. They then asked me why I shouldn't have said it, to which I said they'd find it offensive and would call an admin. They apparently didn't like this response, because they permabanned. I understand that this situation is mostly entirely on my dumbass for trying to talk to an admin when I should've just nodded my head and gone on with my roleplay without trying to prove my point. Evidence/logs/etc: I'm honestly hoping you guys can pull up the logs before the round ends here, because I was being genuine and in no way insulted anyone oocly. Additional remarks: I was enjoying the server, so this fucking sucks to be honest Edited August 11, 2022 by Faris
WickedCybs Posted August 11, 2022 Posted August 11, 2022 (edited) I take discriminatory comments extremely seriously. So, I was always going to see if you knew exactly what the issue was and that you were able to describe it to me, in your own words. Doing the equivalent of a nod and simply acknowledging what I'm saying wouldn't have prevented this complaint from happening and the fact that your take-away is "I should lie" is interesting. You all but confirmed to me though, that you either didn't care or were trying to cover for yourself and this complaint only really reinforces it. Here's what caught my eye and what triggered people to ask you in LOOC if you were trying to be offensive or not (you didn't answer, as you didn't even care to reassure anyone). Here is the entire ticket log from start to finish. Spoiler [03:50:58] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: I need to talk to you about some comments you said during this round. [03:51:07] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: What's up? [03:52:06] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: The way you were saying "Does that lady have a mustache, why's that man wearing a crop top" and then "Wait oh shit, they're one of those transgender people, my bad." [03:52:29] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: Do you get why that might look bad, it made other people in the round uncomfortable. [03:52:30] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: Yeah, at first I genuinely thought they had a mustache before I looked at them and realised they were just a woman wearing black lipstick [03:53:09] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: Eh, I just acted in character is all. I even apologised in character, I really don't see why it was made a moderator issue at all, I wasn't running around fucking screaming about how I hate trans people or anything [03:54:26] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: Doesn't really matter if you were yelling it or whispering it. The whole "why" you were doing, is still the issue. So (?) even if you consider it an IC thing, don't do it again. [03:54:51] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: So (?) I'm not allowed to mention the fact that transgender people might exist or be an asshole ic about it, like they threatened to kick my ass and I just acted like an ass [03:55:11] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: Like bro at the end of the day it's just a character, if they want to kick my ass or report me to security for harrasment they can, this just feels kinda weird [03:56:07] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: Nowhere did I say it can't be mentioned, I specifically outlined the way you did it, since saying something like "Why does that man have a crop top on." as an example can be seen badly, and evidently the rest of them called you out on it with no resposne on your end in LOOC [03:56:36] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: One of them asked me if that was an insult, then mentioned something about it being personel looc, I just remained in character [03:57:16] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: LOOC's specifically there so (?) you can clarify your intentions if needed [03:57:28] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: So (?) are you telling me that ultimately, you don't understand the issue or why what you said could be seen badly? [03:58:15] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: Of course I understand why it could be seen badly, I'm just saying why not make it an ic issue rather than an ooc issue. If the character in question was transgender or had an issue with me insulting them like that, talk to security about it, talk to literally anyone, kick my ass, do anything other than talk to an admin about it [03:58:47] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: If you guys have a hard stance on this kinda thing though, I won't use any kind of insults or poke fun at trans people on this server again in character again [04:00:35] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: We don't consider things like transphobia, irl racism and the like as valid avenues of roleplay yes. That should be kind of evident, so (?) don't do that again yes. [04:00:54] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: The regular insults are fine [04:01:22] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: It feels like I'm gonna be walking a thin line here if I insult someone, like if I say a woman looks like a man is that a transphobic insult? [04:03:10] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: How would you think they might react to that? We're not interested in that kind of roleplay and It's pretty different from just noting how someone is dressed and the like.. [04:03:36] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: So (?) I'm not allowed to be an asshole-character, I'm just forced to be polite to everyone I meet icly [04:03:59] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: I told you the regular insults were fine, that's clearly not what I'm saying. Do you want to try again? [04:04:41] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: So (?) you're saying specific insults are against the rules, but it seems like a real wide net when it could be entirely up to the person in question I'm insulting icly what they find oocly offensive, like c'mon man. I'll try my best here [04:06:00] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: This shouldn't be an issue that requires much more thought than considering the people around you. If you know why It's not going to be seen well, can you tell me what others might feel that way and why It's so (?) important that you can't accomodate them? [04:06:29] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: You could say "It's just roleplay" for a lot of suspect things. [04:07:01] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: I'm not asking a lot from you, by saying stick to comments that aren't going to make our trans players uncomfortable. [04:07:30] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: Let me hit you with a scenario here, I'm in an argument with a female character and it escalates to the point where I say she's ugly as shit and she looks like a man. Now, this person just carries on with the roleplay because they do not find that offensive in the slightest to them oocly, however... Let's run that same situation with a trans person who's going to find that extremely offensive, you see where I'm getting at here? [04:07:45] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: Either way, I understand what you're saying and will refrain from doing stuff like that again [04:08:57] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: That scenario doesn't require much thought on my part. I wouldn't say someone looks like a man as an insult, period. If you're saying you understand what's being said here, that's all there is to this ticket then unless you have anymore questions. [04:11:01] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: Yeah I'm looking at this woman right now and holy shit the lipstick she's got on matches her hair perfectly and I genuinely thought she had a hitler mustache and I really want to tell her ic that it looked like you had a mustache you should change your lipstick but is that going too far? [04:11:59] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: Are you trying to be genuine here or are you fucking with me. [04:12:09] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: You told me you understand. [04:12:35] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: I'm literally being genuine here bro, I'm on thin ice here and don't want to say something stupid but it genuinely looks like she has a mustache from a sprite standpoint [04:12:49] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: Just straight up tp to me ghost around me take a look at this shit [04:14:06] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: Doesn't matter. If you're being genuine then and you understand what I'm saying, please tell me how someone might feel, if you first called them a man wearing a croptop, a transgender person and then telling them it looks like they have a mustache. [04:14:22] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: This is a completely different person, but yeah alright off the table, got it [04:15:05] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: Either way, go ahead and tell me how you think they might react. [04:15:24] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: This is on you to elaborate to me, so (?) I'm sure you understand. [04:15:28] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: In an ideal world they might just get angry at me ic, but yeah they'd probably just call an admin and we'd be in this situation again [04:15:58] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: So (?) you see nothing wrong with it, the only issue is others might ahelp you for it? [04:16:14] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: Well yeah, it offends the person oocly [04:17:13] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: I don't think you were being truthful about understanding anything I said then. You are seemingly only worried that it might land you in trouble. [04:17:29] wickedcybs -> gordanslaveman: I don't think you're a good fit for this server but you're welcome to make a staff complaint if you feel my judgement is wrong here. [04:17:34] gordanslaveman -> wickedcybs: I understand that they find what I said insulting, that they might genuinely think oocly I'm a transphobe It was a pretty standard set of events. where you tried to tell me everything was in character but perhaps a little borderline, that the fact that other people were upset, was their problem and not really something to concern yourself with. That me asking you to stop with the transphobic comments meant you have to be polite 24/7 and can't play an "asshole character" at all. The fact that's the conclusion you even jumped to said a lot about you to me. Afterward, you complained on Discord and ended up banned there as well for trying to rehash the ticket. My verdict was that at the worst, you're actually transphobic and looking to reflect your views in-game. At best, you're just incredibly self-centered and uncaring about those around you. Both are reason enough to remove you from the community, permanently. While this was actually a staff complaint, if you ever decide to make an appeal, do not waste the effort. I am never unbanning you. Edited August 11, 2022 by WickedCybs
Gordan Slaveman Posted August 11, 2022 Author Posted August 11, 2022 Okay cybs, well I'm going to be completely honest with you here, since I'm already permabanned I said those things to that character because I wanted to be a character who was a bit of a dick, to rile up some people and cause character trouble, when I realized the server didn't allow for that kind of thing I tried to have an argument with you about how I thought that not being allowed to say anything someone might find offensive or transphobic is kinda shit, since everyone finds different things offensive. Stupid ass decision, I forgot the most important rule about interacting with ss13 admins. Anyway, I'm not transphobic, I'm also not this hilarious trans hating boogeyman you think I am. I made this appeal because I'm willing to abide by your rules, not because I want to jump back on and start raging about trans people or something, it feels like you just have a personal vendetta against this sort of thing. Anyway, in my honest (personal) opinion, I just think you should grow some thicker skin and take things said in character as well, things said in character, at the end of the day these are just words, and this is just a game. I know this has basically killed any chance of me getting unbanned, but I just wanted to get my thoughts out there P.S Politically, I don't give a shit about trans people, they can do what they want
Faris Posted August 11, 2022 Posted August 11, 2022 The way I see it, there exists two possibilities here. 1- You are intentionally using this chance to rile people up and being offensive, using in-character comments as a vehicle for offensiveness. 2- You are unintentionally being offensive, being unaware of what you're doing and how it can negatively effect people. In both cases I feel like your presence is a detriment to the server and as a result are not welcome here. In either case it is your responsibility to learn what is hateful and what is not hateful, no one here is responsible to correct your behavior as a person regardless of how old you are. Lastly, your attitude and demeanor throughout the ticket conversation and this thread has shown a general lack of maturity and empathy. Resolving this in favor to @WickedCybs verdict and given they have no intention of having the ban revoked, I am extending it to your forum account,. Locking and archiving.
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