Add more useful stuff to the mining vendors

[chaotic_idealism]

I'd like some quality of life stuff to be added to the mining vendors.

• Bottled water. Big ol' bottles of it, for the thirsty miner. Maybe a big thermos of coffee, too, so we can stop stealing the carafes from the cafe.
• Night-vision goggles. Lighting is hard to code, night vision is not. And night vision goggles save lives.
• Splints. Those broken hands and feet from fighting carp with your KA are annoying.
• Batteries, fully charged.
• Emergency autoinjectors. Coagzolug is particularly useful for slowing bleeding when you can't bandage yourself through your suit. Maybe one of those thirty-unit autoinjectors, filled with a mix of chemicals meant to keep you alive in an emergency?
• A selection of KA parts, beyond what we have now.

It'd also be nice to be able to hack them and get stuff like hyperzine and machetes, but that'd probably take some extra coding.

[Carver]

I’d have concern toward NVGs because easy access to these would be rather strong for the ship as a whole - the species that ignore darkness come with incredible downsides after all. I believe that if you really want NVGs, that the Machinist can produce them for your hardsuits, and all that’s needed is the more realistic upfront investment into an industrial hardsuit.

Hyperzine should never be in a mining vendor either, it’s disgustingly powerful. There’s no reason for machetes to be there as well, you’re mining - use your pickaxe if you really need to hit something. Splints should be handled by medical, if a limb is broken it’s time to return. As for KA parts, working with science should allow you access to these already.

Overall, outside of the emergency injector which I support given it’s rather rare to survive a bad day trip back to the ship, everything else here are things you should be asking for from other crew. Mining isn’t intended to be a self contained role without need of any external cooperation, no crew role is really intended to be that.

[Jasorn]

1 hour ago, Carver said:

 I believe that if you really want NVGs, that the Machinist can produce them for your hardsuits, and all that’s needed is the more realistic upfront investment into an industrial hardsuit.

NVG hardsuit modules are considered combat modules, therefore can't be used

[Carver]

19 minutes ago, Jasorn said:

NVG hardsuit modules are considered combat modules, therefore can't be used

I wouldn’t disagree with changing them to be usable by all hardsuits tbh, they’re fairly mundane compared to the heavier stuff like thermals.

[chaotic_idealism]

The issue with hardsuits is that inventory space is really at a premium for miners. You choose between a hardsuit and a backpack, and your backpack carries things like your bandages and autoinjector, which can save your life, and your tools--wrench, crowbar, and so on--which you will use for salvaging or managing drills. Hardsuits can be made with space for three small items, but that's really no compensation for a proper backpack. Your webbing, belt slot, and pockets are already taken up by radio, GPS, lantern, ore satchel, and ore detector. Hardsuits are simply not useful for anyone who has to carry a lot of stuff. And no, you can't carry a duffel in your hand the way medics do; you need both hands to pump your KA. Plus, the more you're juggling inventory, the more time it takes you to respond to the odd reaver.

So yeah. Hardsuits are not the solution, unless they are re-made to fit into the suit slot and allow the use of a backpack. And I'm sure everyone would yell about that being overpowered immediately.

[Carver]

Hardsuits are indeed the solution. One must make sacrifices to take advantage of their benefits, and if you’re managing the large drills then it may be advisable to carry the tools in a bag your hand (leave the bag by the drill when not needed). You really don’t need as much carrying space as you assume unless you’re hoarding or over preparing.

[chaotic_idealism]

22 hours ago, Carver said:

Hardsuits are indeed the solution. One must make sacrifices to take advantage of their benefits, and if you’re managing the large drills then it may be advisable to carry the tools in a bag your hand (leave the bag by the drill when not needed). You really don’t need as much carrying space as you assume unless you’re hoarding or over preparing.

Do you play miner a lot? I ask because you mention a pickaxe as though it's a normal thing to carry... which it hasn't been for ages. Carrying that much equipment hasn't got anything to do with hoarding, and every bit of preparation is absolutely necessary--you die without it, or simply can't do your job. And as I've said, you do need both your hands to manage a KA.

Mining equipment, bare minimum:

Harness (Loadout item): Radio, GPS, bandages.

Pockets: Mining satchel, ore scanner.

Belt slot: Lantern. (Your voidsuit/hardsuit only casts light forward, and enemies attack from all sides.)

Hands: KA. Requires both hands.

Backpack: Wrench, crowbar, screwdriver, inaprovaline autoinjector.

Optional extras: Medical scanner, the rest of the toolbox, autoinjectors from the Spark vendor, extra batteries, metal rods to build lattices.

We're getting to the point where a medical scanner (which can tell you if you are bleeding internally) is an "optional extra". Seriously. And yes, you can put that inaprovaline autoinjector behind your ear, but isn't it unrealistic to reach behind your ear when you have a voidsuit on? It shouldn't even be possible. A mining belt isn't the solution either, because your mining satchel, ore detector, and lantern will not work if they are in a mining belt.

Miners really do need that much room. Mining really is that equipment-focused. I find it a lot of fun, especially with a buddy, but the mining vendor is quite outdated (it even has ladders; we haven't had z-level mining in ages!). It needs to be updated, plain and simple.

Edited December 29, 2023 by chaotic_idealism

[Jasorn]

4 minutes ago, chaotic_idealism said:

We're getting to the point where a medical scanner (which can tell you if you are bleeding internally) is an "optional extra"

internal bleeding isn't a thing https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/issues/17807

[chaotic_idealism]

2 minutes ago, Jasorn said:

internal bleeding isn't a thing https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/issues/17807

Ruptured artery, then. But that's a bug anyway; having a ruptured artery SHOULD cause you to bleed internally, that's what's relevant.

Edited December 29, 2023 by chaotic_idealism

[Fluffy]

1 hour ago, Jasorn said:

internal bleeding isn't a thing https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/issues/17807

Just to be clear, it being bugged doesn't mean that it isn't a thing, it just means that it's bugged (and will eventually be fixed)

That being said, I am not sure if it's intended or a bug in this specific case (I tend towards bug personally), but the point is: Just because it's bugged, it doesn't mean it isn't a thing when you look at the game from a design perspective

[Carver]

7 hours ago, chaotic_idealism said:

Do you play miner a lot? I ask because you mention a pickaxe as though it's a normal thing to carry... which it hasn't been for ages. Carrying that much equipment hasn't got anything to do with hoarding, and every bit of preparation is absolutely necessary--you die without it, or simply can't do your job. And as I've said, you do need both your hands to manage a KA.

Mining equipment, bare minimum:

Harness (Loadout item): Radio, GPS, bandages.

Pockets: Mining satchel, ore scanner.

Belt slot: Lantern. (Your voidsuit/hardsuit only casts light forward, and enemies attack from all sides.)

Hands: KA. Requires both hands.

Backpack: Wrench, crowbar, screwdriver, inaprovaline autoinjector.

Optional extras: Medical scanner, the rest of the toolbox, autoinjectors from the Spark vendor, extra batteries, metal rods to build lattices.

We're getting to the point where a medical scanner (which can tell you if you are bleeding internally) is an "optional extra". Seriously. And yes, you can put that inaprovaline autoinjector behind your ear, but isn't it unrealistic to reach behind your ear when you have a voidsuit on? It shouldn't even be possible. A mining belt isn't the solution either, because your mining satchel, ore detector, and lantern will not work if they are in a mining belt.

Miners really do need that much room. Mining really is that equipment-focused. I find it a lot of fun, especially with a buddy, but the mining vendor is quite outdated (it even has ladders; we haven't had z-level mining in ages!). It needs to be updated, plain and simple.

Off the top of my head,

Pockets: Radio, Lantern (Why would I waste a belt slot on a small item)

Belt: Pick/Drill, KA (Latter if in a hardsuit - the former is just there as a solid item to break stuff and fight annoying mobs at the range that a KA will kill you/someone else, but the hardsuit has good melee weapons built-in generally)

Webbing: GPS, Various small items

Satchel (Back, or in hand if in a hardsuit): Everything else that I won’t care about dropping in a rush. Toolbelt, Ore Bag, Ore scanner but I never use it because strip mining is easier, KA if I’m wearing the satchel on my back otherwise as before it’s on the belt slot, maybe a Shovel for sand but glass can be ordered so eh

I’m not carrying a medical scanner because a miner isn’t trained to use one, and it doesn’t take a genius to know what a mob does to you. My internals box in the satchel has an autoinjector and bandages, so I’ll generally leave those in there for when they’re needed. The ore detector like I said is more or less useless, I’m not hunting down specific materials so science will be happy with whatever the strip mining tactics bring them since the ore crate I drag with me will hold everything anyways. I’m not urgently carrying tools in non-bag slots because you don’t need them on your person, just have a Toolbelt in your satchel and throw it down near a big drill if you’re truly forgetful.

I carry what I need, and I don’t need much.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Carver
The satchel is worn on the back, not on the bag.

[chaotic_idealism]

So you're carrying the satchel in your hand while using your KA, which takes both hands to use. Where'd you get the extra hand? Or did you leave your satchel at the end of your strip-mining row? So your ore bag is back wherever you dropped your satchel; what are you doing, picking up the ore one by one and dropping it into your crate? Dropping your KA and running back over your row with the ore bag? Now you're defenseless and a carp has bitten you; your bandages are back there with your satchel, sucks to be you, say goodbye to your blood volume.

This is just not workable. A pickaxe is not a useful mining tool; where a KA takes out six tiles in one shot, a pick takes three swings to take a single tile. That's more than 18 times slower. And without an ore detector, you're going to be using that pickaxe on a lot of empty rock.

I don't know about you, but I like to get back with a good haul in time to sit around in the bar and chat with my buddies. If you like poking along with a pickaxe and no ore detector, more power to you, but that's not how mining is done nowadays. Sure, you CAN mine that way, but you're gimping yourself so hard that you might as well not be playing a miner at all.

As for using a hand scanner as a miner: Yes, you can use one. There's one in the Spark for you to use; why would it be there if miners couldn't have basic first-aid training? It's not like I'm doing brain surgery. Using a hand scanner is on the same level as taking someone's temperature. I usually play it as not really knowing how to read the finer details or infer what may be happening; but I can identify where they need to be bandaged or what color first-aid pouch they need. Miners without first-aid training are just looking to get killed--or watch their injured buddies die needlessly, which honestly is even worse.

Edited December 30, 2023 by chaotic_idealism

[Acetrea]

I like this idea of adding more items to the vendor. The argument on the other side is that you can already get all of these new things from other sources, but if that's the standard then most things in the Mining Vendor shouldn't be there. Just about everything in there can be ordered from Operations or made by Machinist or Science. I don't see a problem with this suggestion because in order to get these cool items, you must do a mining trip without them first. I think it encourages miners to make fast trips (which has been a concern for developers, so I've heard) and bring back their materials for Science and the Machinist to use, so then they can get these cool tools to help mine even better.

[chaotic_idealism]

Have we considered adding things that would be useful not just to Mining, but to other departments? I often get a Lazarus injector and deliver it to Medical, in case Crusher or Ian dies. And I've certainly ordered a half dozen pizzas and served them in the mess hall; frozen pizza is better than vendors and there isn't always a chef.

Mining interacts with other departments plenty, while delivering materials and after they get back from a run. But it would be cool if they could provide more than just materials.

For example: That autochisel. Ops asks for a statue, you make one, aided by the AI in your autochisel, Ops gets points, you get to flatter somebody by sclupting them. Very nice. More like that would be neat.

[Carver]

4 hours ago, chaotic_idealism said:

So you're carrying the satchel in your hand while using your KA, which takes both hands to use. Where'd you get the extra hand? Or did you leave your satchel at the end of your strip-mining row? So your ore bag is back wherever you dropped your satchel; what are you doing, picking up the ore one by one and dropping it into your crate? Dropping your KA and running back over your row with the ore bag? Now you're defenseless and a carp has bitten you; your bandages are back there with your satchel, sucks to be you, say goodbye to your blood volume.

This is just not workable. A pickaxe is not a useful mining tool; where a KA takes out six tiles in one shot, a pick takes three swings to take a single tile. That's more than 18 times slower. And without an ore detector, you're going to be using that pickaxe on a lot of empty rock.

I don't know about you, but I like to get back with a good haul in time to sit around in the bar and chat with my buddies. If you like poking along with a pickaxe and no ore detector, more power to you, but that's not how mining is done nowadays. Sure, you CAN mine that way, but you're gimping yourself so hard that you might as well not be playing a miner at all.

As for using a hand scanner as a miner: Yes, you can use one. There's one in the Spark for you to use; why would it be there if miners couldn't have basic first-aid training? It's not like I'm doing brain surgery. Using a hand scanner is on the same level as taking someone's temperature. I usually play it as not really knowing how to read the finer details or infer what may be happening; but I can identify where they need to be bandaged or what color first-aid pouch they need. Miners without first-aid training are just looking to get killed--or watch their injured buddies die needlessly, which honestly is even worse.

No, I'm throwing the satchel on the floor if I'm in a hardsuit and need to mine. Otherwise, if I have no hardsuit I'm wearing it. When I pick up the ore, if the satchel is on the ground, I one-hand the KA and run over the ores with the ore bag in the other hand. You seem to have a very inflexible view of how mechanics and the role can operate if you assume leaving a bag on the floor is a death sentence, especially given my mentioned 'loadout' leaves 2 slots in the webbing for anything if you're that insistent upon bandages being in your hand instead of 6 feet away. If paranoia is a concern one can also choose to find mining locations without the immersion-breaking Romanovich Cloud mobs present, albeit at a higher travel time and with greater risk of harassment by third parties.

The pickaxe is plenty usable. I can use it as a serviceable melee weapon, and otherwise use it to break anything short of a metal wall (which a drill can do). While not my first choice, a pick/drill also isn't terrible either if you want to use it for mining, just have it in your off-hand and walk into a wall to auto-mine that wall. This is how mining worked for years before the KA, and efficiency has not been lost in this method if you feel like doing it due to a lost KA or being an Industrial IPC with a mounted drill (or you've discovered a sonic jackhammer or diamond-tipped drill). As for empty rocks, that's what my eyes are for, lol.

If I spend 30-60m and return either wealthy or with a minimal haul, I don't especially care. I did my mining shift and what's there is all there will be, I don't intend on min-maxxing to ensure the Machinist can produce a megadeath Gundam or that Science can make a one-shot sniper rifle. There's no point in being a fully optimal miner on an HRP server with 2 hour rounds and no material persistence.

The hand scanner is there because every nanomed spawns with one. If hand scanners were so trivial they'd be a freely accessible PDA program, instead of heavily limited in who may have them. I'm not going to use it, and I don't need to rub brain cells to figure out 'John was slashed in the leg and is bleeding, apply bandage to leg' or 'Jack was bit by a Greimorian Hunter, shove anti-tox in mouth and rush home'. Mining injuries are never complicated enough for it to matter to the miner, as if it's something severe you return to the ship anyways.