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Staff Complaint - Campinkiller


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BYOND Key: The_ill_fated
Staff BYOND Key: Campinkiller
Game ID: csT-diYF
Reason for complaint:  Inappropriate Warning issued by Admin

During the listed round, a Fisanduhan character approached my own character, Imogen Janse with an ultimatum that either she lure the HoS ''Cornelius Huizhong' into a trap in her office, and then murder him, or be killed herself.  Imogen made the decision to refuse to do so, based predominantly on a trio of factors including 

  • Cornelius Huizhong participated in the Konyang missions, a humanitarian action supporting Konyang, a faction whose belief system and morality are to a substantial degree likely opposite of his own, risking personal injury or death, for the people of Konyang.  Imogen gained a hesitant respect for the man as a result of this, and certainly so quickly after the last mission, would not want to see him killed or injured 
  • Having a Coalition diplomat assassinate a Dominian Noble would cause, as an understatement  a 'Giant Fucking Incident'  which would have immense aftereffects beyond just the Horizon, likely to impact all of the CoC and Dominia to some degree, even if it is just a worsening of tensions. 
  • Imogen believed that the Fisanduhan in question was bluffing, that a Fisanduhan which had expressed to her, strong anti-Dominia feelings, and mentions of pro-Xanu feelings, would not kill Imogen as that was likely to cut-out Xanan support for Fisanduh.  

Afterwards, the Fisanduhan in question beheaded Imogen with an energy sword in her office.  Rapidly afterwards I had an AdminPM from Campinkiller, that ultimately resulted in the following warning.  

Link:  https://imgur.com/a/k6HIi7y

 I strongly contest that ICly I roleplayed Imogen in a manner which was inappropriate regarding fear, or concern for her own life.  Imogen was placed into a situation where she did not have a good option from how I can see it.  Her choices, were she to have taken the antagonist's threats seriously, which she did not as she believed they were bluffing were:   

  1. Comply, and have the HoS nearly certainly murdered as a result, given that the Antagonist in this situation had openly shown Imogen the sort of equipment and weaponry she had on her person.  A person unexpectedly thrown into a small room with a prepared attacker, has essentially zero chance from a reasonable IC estimation.  The HoS dies, responding personnel are also probably severely injured as the Antagonist has the drop on them, the Coalition of Colonies has the blame at least partially placed upon them causing what is likely a substantial diplomatic incident (As the Antag had said Imogen would be the one killing the HoS, I'm not exactly sure what that would've entailed.) 
  2. Pretend to Comply, Tell the HoS to come in, and then warn them as soon as they do.  It likely has almost the exact results, with the HoS probably dying, Imogen almost certainly being killed for warning them, and then responders being killed/injured in their response as well.  
  3. Don't Comply.  If bluffing, which Imogen ICly assumed, she imagined she'd either be taken hostage, or dragged into the maintenance for some other sort of Antag shenanigans.   It turns out she/I were incorrect in this assumption, which instead resulted in her death. 

I think it is resolutely wrong to say that Imogen was acting in a manner that was without concern, nor fear for her life.  Imogen definitely feared for her life strongly, and had the situation not ended so abruptly that certainly would’ve been conveyed via RP, but she was pushed into a corner with no good options.  Either a man she’s got a certain, and currently strong respect for virtually certainly dies, she herself and that man dies almost certainly, or she maybe, potentially, she doesn’t really think will happen, dies by herself.  

And to be wholly clear, Imogen did not in any way, shape, or form call out for help.  I don’t have the exact quote, but the Fisanduhan Antag turned on Imogen’s radio, which Imogen could not access for herself as she had been handcuffed, and told Imogen to call the HoS to her office.

Imogen’s response was something akin to “I think you misunderstand the type of person I am, I’m not going to kill anyone for you”.  While I still understand that this may have resulted in the ‘outing’ of the Antag, it was not the intention of the statement.   The first time Imogen ‘called’ for help was when an assistant ran up to the window and explicitly saw what was happening.  

But for the most part I am contesting the fact that Campinkiller explicitly stated my RP was poor.  I can understand, even If I do disagree with, Campinkiller saying that I did not allow time for the Antag to do Antag things, but I cannot more strongly disagree that the surrounding situation is emblematic of poor RP, it is well reasoned, with internal consistency, and is a reasonable action for the unreasonable situation Imogen found herself within.  

With that being said, I believe Campinkiller has a misunderstanding of what constitutes ‘poor’ or ‘unreasonable’ roleplaying, and request that in the very least, my warning be amended to remove that particular section, if not entirely removed as I don’t personally believe I undercut the antag’s gimmick anymore than their own actions did.   

Evidence/logs/etc: https://imgur.com/a/S6kkHAz - Logs from AdminPM

Additional remarks: N/A

Edited by The_Ill_Fated
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I watched the entire interaction and I don't recall if the antag said they would kill Janse if she failed to kill Huizhong or just that they would do it themselves if she failed. It doesn't really have much bearing on the issue in my view.

23 minutes ago, The_Ill_Fated said:

And to be wholly clear, Imogen did not in any way, shape, or form call out for help.  I don’t have the exact quote, but the Fisanduhan Antag turned on Imogen’s radio, which Imogen could not access for herself as she had been handcuffed, and told Imogen to call the HoS to her office.

Your statement was clearly intended to draw attention to what was going on (as you confirmed in dchat by expressing shock that nobody reacted to it) and also followed the antag explicitly saying that your head would be removed if you did anything other than call the commander to your office. As I said in the ticket, I did not expect you to follow through with their demands to kill Huizhong, but you were at the mercy of the antag and they clearly expressed the means and motive to kill you if you did not do a simple task in that moment. You chose to believe that they were bluffing, which I don't think any reasonable person would do in that moment. In fact, you explicity said this in the ticket:

Quote

The threat existed that someone would be severely hurt, or die in all choices, and Imogen (?) made a rational decision that she would rather be the one that happen to

There is not any rational decision for someone that ends in their immediate decapitation. It really crosses the line of what a reasonable and believable person would do in that situation. You are a consular on a ship, not someone in a spy flick, so the idea that you would rationally decide to be decapitated is bizarre.

Even setting that aside, command whitelisted players are expected to not immediately shut down an antagonist's gimmick in normal situations, and this essentially did so. There were a million different ways for that to end that didn't result in your immediate death and also completely ending the antag's gimmick less than 5 minutes after it started.

34 minutes ago, The_Ill_Fated said:

But for the most part I am contesting the fact that Campinkiller explicitly stated my RP was poor.  I can understand, even If I do disagree with, Campinkiller saying that I did not allow time for the Antag to do Antag things, but I cannot more strongly disagree that the surrounding situation is emblematic of poor RP, it is well reasoned, with internal consistency, and is a reasonable action for the unreasonable situation Imogen found herself within.  

At no point did I say your RP was poor. I'm not sure where this is coming from.

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20 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

Your statement was clearly intended to draw attention to what was going on (as you confirmed in dchat by expressing shock that nobody reacted to it)

My statement was meant as a reply to their request.  Imogen was handcuffed, with her radio taken away and in the possession of the antag.  She had no control over saying it over the radio, or not saying it over the radio.  Going "No, I'm not doing it!" would've elicited just as much attention, if not more.  And yes, after it having been said over the radio, again a thing I had no control over in the situation, I was a little surprised it took so long to elicit a response.  

20 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

Which I don't think any reasonable person would do in that moment. In fact, you explicity said this in the ticket:  There is not any rational decision for someone that ends in their immediate decapitation. It really crosses the line of what a reasonable and believable person would do in that situation. You are a consular on a ship, not someone in a spy flick, so the idea that you would rationally decide to be decapitated is bizarre.

No, I said that she was ultimately wrong in that assumption.  Given the reasoning I laid out in the original post, primarily that the Antag in question acknowledged Imogen as an individual with a positive opinion of Fisanduh, that Xanu supported Fisanduh and with the knowledge that any action against a Diplomatic Official by a Fisanduhan would likely result in any aid, or positive goodwill given by the Coalition of Colonies, Or Xanu evaporating, I do not think it impossible for a reasonable person with the understanding of the situation she had at that current time, to have assumed she was bluffing.    I would certainly appreciate you not taking my own statements, which I have posted visibly on the complaint, out of context to attempt to justify your own position.  

20 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

Even setting that aside, command whitelisted players are expected to not immediately shut down an antagonist's gimmick in normal situations, and this essentially did so. There were a million different ways for that to end that didn't result in your immediate death and also completely ending the antag's gimmick less than 5 minutes after it started.

As I have stated, that was not the intention.  But I do understand why this is important, and will keep this in mind for future events.  

20 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

At no point did I say your RP was poor. I'm not sure where this is coming from.

The relevant section of the warning is "You need to act with appropriate fear or concern for your life in certain situations with antagonists. Calling someone out over the radio who said they would kill you if you did so is not doing that.".  You are directly stating that the In-character actions, motivations, and the reasoning behind them which I have explained to you, are of a quality which warrants administrative action.  If that is not you saying that the quality of roleplay in this situation is questionable, I'm not remotely sure what you're trying to say.  

Edited by The_Ill_Fated
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49 minutes ago, The_Ill_Fated said:

The relevant section of the warning is "You need to act with appropriate fear or concern for your life in certain situations with antagonists. Calling someone out over the radio who said they would kill you if you did so is not doing that.".  You are directly stating that the In-character actions, motivations, and the reasoning behind them which I have explained to you, are of a quality which warrants administrative action.

I'm not taking this complaint for the time being, but if someone gets bwoinked that doesn't mean the roleplay was bad. You can get noted for breaking the rules while still roleplaying well. The note to me just reads that you didn't really fearRP, which isn't an indication on "roleplay quality" or anything.

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On 24/03/2024 at 19:27, The_Ill_Fated said:

My statement was meant as a reply to their request.  Imogen was handcuffed, with her radio taken away and in the possession of the antag.  She had no control over saying it over the radio, or not saying it over the radio.

This is a misleading statement, as the antag clearly communicated to you that the radio was on and what you should say. You cannot claim to have not known it was going to go over the radio when they had quite obviously turned the microphone on.

Quote

 

SAY: [REMOVED]/(Sieglinde Holland) : (Sol Common) I want you to call Huizhong here. I will be turning on the microphone to your headset.

SAY: [REMOVED]/(Sieglinde Holland) : (Sol Common) Speak, now. Do not do as I ask, and you will find your head detached from yourself.

EMOTE: Sieglinde Holland/[REMOVED] : <B>Sieglinde Holland</B> lifts up the radio.

 

And again, even if we want to say it going out on the radio wasn't the intention, you were still faced with following a simple request or decapitation, and you chose decapitation, which I do not find to be a rational choice in that situation. You further provoked them after your radio message, calling them a terrorist, and stating that their instructions were "idiotic." None of that seems like something a rational person in this position should be doing to someone who has the means to (and threatened) to kill them.

On 24/03/2024 at 19:27, The_Ill_Fated said:

I would certainly appreciate you not taking my own statements, which I have posted visibly on the complaint, out of context to attempt to justify your own position.

That was not taken out of context. Part of your justification in the ticket was that your character made a rational choice to have their head lopped off instead of someone else potentially getting hurt. I called attention to it because I do not find that to be a valid argument in this situation. The times where someone would rationally and willingly accept their own death like that are few and far between, and this is not one of them.

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While to some degree, I do still disagree with the decision Campinkiller ultimately reached, upon reevaluating what happened, and my attitude at the time as a result of some OOC occurrences within my person life, I can't help but reconsider this complaint.   I apologize for any hostility, or insinuation of malice/inability made either in the admin PM-chain, or in this complaint, and request this thread be binned.   

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