The engineering millitia

[Jamini]

Imagine if security started keeping electric gloves and gear and doing ghetto surgery, maybe even an autolithe to produce all those flashlights, crowbars and bounce radios security needs for their continous work. After all, why wouldn't security take care of its members and its territory. That would be nice.

 

>Security has two straightjackets

>Security has nitrus oxide cansters. Multiple of them.

>Security has ITS OWN MEDICAL AREA.

>Security has tons and tons of preexisting radios and crowbars.

>Security has its own fucking operating table, and the tools to perform autopsies (a job that was intended for medical to do)

>Security starts with a mass spectrometer.

If given half an inch, security will happily step all over the lanes of other departments. They do and have historically. While I'm not saying it is right for OTHER departments to do so, do not act as if security is blameless.

 

Other than that, although I see the point of civies choosing to fight voiding their own existance, keep in mind that this being allowed is a difference of 5 nuke ops vs. 5 officers and 5 nuke ops vs. a station of 20 armed personnel. You want bombings and chaos? This is how you get bombings and chaos.

 

Actually, nuke was designed around 5 nuke ops vs. a station of 20+ armed personnel. That's actually 100% intended. That is why nuke gear is by default so horridly powerful. It's not supposed to be 5v5, it's supposed to be 5v20.

[Jamini]

1. This is not about the success of militias, chloral hydrate is succesful but you're still not allowed to fill the syringe gun with it and carry it around at round start as a doctor.

2. Shooting civillians is off limits, and I can already see that simply shooting at engineers standing somewhere in a hallway because they might have stungloves would be seen as an excuse to murderbone, and punished. As long as I dont have a guarantee that people who participate in engineering millitias wont make a complaint after they get outrobusted by the antag they're hunting, claiming "Gank" or "Bad RP", I will be against them.

3. Expanding on the previous point, stun gloves are disguised and can not be seen even if you shift click an engineer. Any engineer could potentially 1-hit KO you, and since they have a tendency to ignore fear and pain RP you actually have to start shooting at them from a distance to make sure they fall into paincrit/get decapitated before they manage to get in stun distance.

Security already ignores painRP and FeaRP, I dont need a second department which ignores feaRP painRP. Assuming that the current anti-murderbone rules stay in place, there is no proper way to defend yourself against an engineering militia.

 

Funny, I have had nearly zero difficulty taking out other engineers as antagonists on a regular basis. Without ever once being accused of a gank or bad RP. (With an exception of one chaplain I cremated as a ling. But the complaint there was that I cremated the body and removed them from the round. Which was fair.)

1. Do not. Ever. Let. Anyone. Close with you.

-Hey, guess what! Letting someone within one tile of you is ASKING to be disarmed, stunned, or worse. Literally anyone can remove your inhand weapons with a 25% chance on a single click! If someone is one tile away, you should be backing up or shooting them for getting too close! (Or, alternatively, stunning THEM for getting too close.)

2. Do not fight alone if you can help it.

-There is strength in numbers. You know the reason why so many servers have stories of assistants, clowns, and janitors who outrobusted entire nuke teams or entire STATIONS? That is because people would try and take that person on alone. Fighting anyone one on one means you have zero safety net, and is a recipe for disaster if you eat a single stun or unlucky blow.

3. Do not rely on take_hostage

-Just because you have your gun aimed at someone does not mean you have won the encounter. Far too many people think that take_hostage should be an instant win. It's not. Don't rely on it. There is nothing wrong with stunning someone to down and cuff them. That isn't a gank, as long as you are not outright trying to kill them.

4. If someone refuses to comply with your demands? Shoot them.

-If you tell anyone to get on the fucking ground, and they refuse? (I normally give 5-15 seconds to comply, more if someone is a slow typer) They have voided any protection that they might have had. Shoot them. It's really that simple. A standing person is a threat, and if they make a move towards you they are doubly a threat.

Rectum, you need to just toughen up a little. People are not going to fearRP or painRP with you if you don't actually give them a reason to fearRP or painRP. Be ruthless, as an antagonist, because most of the time the people you are against are going to look for an opening to use against you in order to take you down. Why? Because it is a game. Many people will play it to win, because fighting back and taking a shot at winning is fun to them.

If you don't want to be tough and violent as an antag, then you need to use methods that are less obvious or clearly intended to be fun for your target. Watch Wer6 and his antics for examples. You can try and make a situation where the target is aware that you are not going to outright murder them (For example: My last vampire round. I had /multiple/ crew that let me partially drain them with a simple hyponotise, because I was very very clear from my actions/speech that I had no intention of seriously harming them. The ones that made it clear they didn't want to be attacked? I ceased attacking. By the end of the game I had enthralled all of command, had engineering building me a throne room in escape, and had a steady supply of protohumans provided by a pair of collaborating doctors in medical.). Or, you can simply avoid situations where being attacked will ever come into play (deny resources, create diversions, keep your opponents busy and distracted. Hacking the AI and emagging borgs are some of the best ways to accomplish this)

[Jakers457]

So what I've learnt from this, if I want something from an Engineer. I'm going to have to kill him outright and loot his corpse. Or perhaps I should get to know the.engineers and figure out which ones are proud members of the militia.

I mean the advantage of Miko as a barman is that he gets to know who in Security he should cap and who to grab, people watching for you.

[Tainavaa]

1. Do not. Ever. Let. Anyone. Close with you.

-Hey, guess what! Letting someone within one tile of you is ASKING to be disarmed, stunned, or worse. Literally anyone can remove your inhand weapons with a 25% chance on a single click! If someone is one tile away, you should be backing up or shooting them for getting too close! (Or, alternatively, stunning THEM for getting too close.)

 

This is exactly how I murdered a hardsuited detective with his own gun as a naked prisoner. Good times. It's also exactly the reason why I never let a detainee get within arms length of me if I believe they'll just try and push me down. It's grounds for an immediate stun/flash. I've been called shitcurity because of it.

[Guest]

>Security has two straightjackets

>Security has nitrus oxide cansters. Multiple of them.

>Security has ITS OWN MEDICAL AREA.

>Security has tons and tons of preexisting radios and crowbars.

>Security has its own fucking operating table, and the tools to perform autopsies (a job that was intended for medical to do)

>Security starts with a mass spectrometer.

If given half an inch, security will happily step all over the lanes of other departments. They do and have historically. While I'm not saying it is right for OTHER departments to do so, do not act as if security is blameless.

 

>For keeping insanos that medical doesn't want to deal with.

>Which it isn't allowed to use outside of execution and jailbreak.

>For bruses and burns, it's not a surgery room. Necessary given the distance between medbay and the brig.

>Exactly three bounce radios and a two crowbars, one of each is reserved for the warden, me thinks.

>Blank point, surgery isn't done on it, nor it should be.

>So? It is not used for anything except rarely for forensics.

Security does not order directly in cargo, fix breaches, mine, do surgery, chemistry, research or robotics. Which of these lines were crossed other than maybe bulging into departments for sacurity reasons or telling not to clone simply because it doesn't make sense to?

As for the 5 vs 20 arguments, the nuke ops are intended to go after the nuke disk as well, which is not obligatory here. Saying how it was intended to be is a mute point as no one follows it here anyway. Nuke ops get crushed by at least a bit competant officers, here.

[Jamini]

Security does not

 

order directly in cargo

Untrue. Seen plenty of wardens and HOS players order things directly from cargo if no techs.

 

fix breaches

True. Mind, fixing breaches is an aquired taste.

 

do surgery, chemistry

It's funny how often I need to outright chase officers out of medical, or have them tell me that X or Y needs X or Y surgery or chemical when I'm playing a Paramed or Doctor. Maybe you don't see it, but I do.

 

research or robotics.

Generally security avoid these areas, except to arrest scientists who toe out of line.

 

Which of these lines were crossed other than maybe bulging into departments for security reasons or telling not to clone simply because it doesn't make sense to?

More than you seem to think. Mind, they get shouted at and told to tone it down, but nevertheless it still happens. It will continue to happen. It is not always wrong when it does happen. There are times to go over departmental boundaries for all staff.

Hell, I've had security harass me before for troubleshooting telecomms cameras/hacks (during malf) because my activities "Seemed Suspicious" to an officer. Despite the fact that I had the RD enroute/there and another engineer assisting me. To the point where I had to have Centurion remove them from the satellite. I've also had to tell security that multiple calls the AI made on an atmos technician were unnecessary, as it was a departmental issue, in the past (It wasn't the officer's fault, but nevertheless security was involved when they didn't need to be). Security as a rule of thumb, simply put, will constantly try and butt into the business of other departments.

 

As for the 5 vs 20 arguments, the nuke ops are intended to go after the nuke disk as well, which is not obligatory here. Saying how it was intended to be is a mute point as no one follows it here anyway. Nuke ops get crushed by at least a bit competent officers, here.

 

Pft. That depends entirely on the ops and the officers in question. I've seen plenty of antags (wizards and ninjas) and op teams utterly decimate security. Some of said teams killed off security, only to find themselves falling to cargo techs and engineers with crossbows/flamers/stungloves, or medical crew with syringeguns/autoinjectors/AEDs in a moment of opportunity. Quite frankly, if the crew chooses to defend themselves they should be allowed to do so. As long as they accept that security is permitted to arrest them and that by acting against the antagonists they are opening themselves up to retribution.

[Jamini]

So what I've learnt from this, if I want something from an Engineer. I'm going to have to kill him outright and loot his corpse. Or perhaps I should get to know the.engineers and figure out which ones are proud members of the militia.

I mean the advantage of Miko as a barman is that he gets to know who in Security he should cap and who to grab, people watching for you.

 

Do you have a gun?

Stun them. Tie them up. Take_hostage, order to the ground. Shoot them to incap, then tie up.

You would be surprised how few members of engineering are willing to go on the offensive. I can personally think of perhaps three or four out of an entire department regulars that will openly vigilante. The bulk of the rest will prefer to turtle in engineering and hold out/defend their equipment, or simply run.

[Guest]

I'm not tossing blames. Those are shitty officers, their actions are frawned upon. It's security's job is to butt into other departments, to make sure regulations aren't being broken. If they attempt and arrest without consulting the respective superiors, they risk their own ass. Security is free to order chemicals they need for their work, as is anyone else. I've always questioned why medbay are such shits when it comes to giving out certain chemicals. If they order it being made, they can be ignored, as it's a breach of official power, thus punishable. They are NOT mixing the chems themselves, while, from what people are obviously saying in this thread, other departments go out of their way to play officers.

[Jamini]

. I've always questioned why medbay are such shits when it comes to giving out certain chemicals.

 

Because medical can and should be detained if they make a chemical is used improperly. Anyone that wants something from chemistry should be required to provide a reason for it. Medical does so internally all the time (Medics that want chloral made need to justify it. they can be denied. Same for any other pharmaceutical) , security is not exempt from this expectation.

 

from what people are obviously saying in this thread, other departments go out of their way to play officers.

 

Except they don't, with the exception of a few individuals who should be talked too.

Once again, I repeat. As a whole, engineering will only arm up to defend themselves and their department. If someone attempts to sabotage the engine or atmospherics, or attacks an engineer or group of engineers in maint, the engineers should be permitted to defend themselves. While not everyone follows this, the majority do. Perhaps a handful of characters will actively vigilantie, and just like those bad officers, they should be talked too individually. Punishing the whole, which YOU seem to be suggesting, is just as bad as punishing ALL of security for a handful security players who routinely overstep.

Let me bring up a bit of vigilantism of my own. Right?

Situation: Cult round. Security is understaffed (1 warden, 1 officer, 1 CSI), engineering is lightly staffed (CE, two engineers. I was unfamiliar with either.)

1. Starting cultists were Haruspex, Sam, and one of the Engineers

2. During the course of the round, the test site had its cameras cut. I also witnessed evidence of an assault (camera on the ground and some damaged walls from someone flailing a wirecutter about). Did not call security as both engineers reported in and stated it was an accident. (A lie, but I let it pass)

3. Persistent unusual activity from both engineers, minor sabotage found and corrected. Security found nothing concrete. Had a security borg accompany me on checking the test site with both engineers present.

4. Both Sam and Haruspex were captured. I was called to the brig as a lone head of staff to help look at Sam's implant and Haruspex (synthetic life and all)

6. After speaking with Sam and Haru, I ask security to bring in both engineers for questioning and search. As we moved to blue. Engineers report that they are out on the solars (very late in the round)

7. I spot one of them EVA near the permabrig. Shortly after both Haru and Sam escape.

8. Security was on command channel now. I tell them to bring in both engineers.

9. Returning to engineering (worried about sabotage) I hear sparks near cargo. Probably someone hacking. I message sec, move to investigate. Hacked doors are my responsibility. Check mining doors.

10. Find both one of the engineers and Sam in a hardsuit. Fairly confident ICly that they aren't heavily armed. (no weapon out, one was just released from perma. etc). I choose to go after them. Give them a quick verbal warning I am going to attack them. "Wiring solars, huh?" Call security to respond to cargo immediately.

11. Stunglove and tie both, after a bit of a fight. I avoid injury from a wrench. Hand over to security when they arrive.

Was I actively chasing them? No. It was mostly luck that I heard the hacking. Did I choose to be a combatant? Yes. Had I found them actively sabotaging engineering would I have went after them? Probably. Would I have found them if they used another airlock not near engineering? No. Would I have any ground to stand on if I lost the fight and died? No, nor would I have complained. I started the fight.

Vigilantism? Yes. But certainly not antag hunting. Should security have arrested me for it? Debatable, though they seemed ill-inclined to do so due to low staffing at the time.

[Tainavaa]

bulging into departments for sacurity reasons

 

As a mainly medical player, I disagree entirely. If I'm given a legitimate reason to come into medical I let them in but the ratio of 'barging in for legitimate security reasons' and 'barging in for anything else' by a member of security is fairly low.

While people are pretty wrong about security, that is one thing I have to say people are NOT wrong about. And this is for everyone, not just security. People just fucking love being in the medical bay.

[Guest]

Security does not order directly in cargo, fix breaches, mine, do surgery, chemistry, research or robotics.

Security does not

order directly in cargo

-answer

fix breaches

-answer

do surgery, chemistry

-answer

research or robotics.

-answer

 

Can we not cut up what people say like this please, sure this thread means a lot to you personally but post cutting just shows a form of anger.

Please cut down on the double posts, there is an edit button for if you have forgot something.

[Jamini]

There isn't any anger. Each instance needs to be looked at individually, as each one is handled differently. By dividing up the response one can answer more accurately to the statements in question. In some instances Bokaza was right, in others they were simply outright inaccurate. It is unfair to provide a blanket answer when specifics need to be mentioned.

I'll avoid double posting.

[Guest]

True but you have responded to almost every other post in this thread, meaning you have very strong feelings about something in this thread.

Thank you.

As for how gamemodes were designed, lets remember that most gamemodes were designed for servers like GOON and /tg/ not for for HeavyRP where not everyone knows how to be a killer.

Having the stun glove within 5 minutes of the round start, even if the reason is to carry around an extra cell, it's still having a weapon ready and easily accessible.

I don't mind civilians getting things to protect themselves, provided there is a reason other than 'security are acting funny' or 'that person has no hair and stole a crowbar'

However I would expect civilians to find the first chance to escape, and avoid trying to outrobust someone armed with weapons just because the games mechanics work on a coin toss system.

[Jamini]

I do have strong feelings regarding the subject, as you are fully aware. I dislike encouraging security to be the sole people who interact with and handle antagonists by default, and I even more intensely dislike extensive ERT presence on the station without a very good reason for such. Having both ultimately cheapens player-antagonist interactions, and generally breeds players who are extremely passive when frankly, the main actors in the "story" of the station should be the entire crew. ERT in particular act, for lack of a better word, as essentially a "Deus Ex Machina" when it comes to antagonist actions, as opposed to a last resort.

I would much prefer the roleplay and interaction around gathering up a ragtag group of survivors, some of whom are probably inexperience or completely untrained in fighting, over simply having everyone sit in the bar and wait for security/ert to solve the problem for them. Such a view is not healthy for the game. Problem solving, conflict (both actual fights, and arguments), and opposition breed an interesting story. The story of a handful of people who hid on an outpost for three hours, then rode out on the shuttle, just isn't (often) very exciting unless they themselves also end up in very real danger.

As for the "stunglove issue found within five minutes of the change", I honestly really do feel as if it was simple coincidence. Again, there was only one player (to my knowledge) that put stungloves into webbing on a regular basis. That player happened to be the CE in question. I know I do not, and I do not know of many others who build gloves at all unless there is a very real need. (especially as gloves are honestly very dangerous to wear at all times, due to multiplying damage taken from shocks by three)

 

However I would expect civilians to find the first chance to escape, and avoid trying to outrobust someone armed with weapons just because the games mechanics work on a coin toss system.

 

I agree, but I also do feel it depends on the circumstance. Not only who the opponent is: but what they are armed with, how threatening the armed person is, if or if not the person disarming is trapped or not. Etc.

Let's also not forget, the coin-toss system also has a good chance of having the person disarming getting shot. It is not a riskless tactic by any means.

[Erik Tiber]

Can we not cut up what people say like this please, sure this thread means a lot to you personally but post cutting just shows a form of anger.

Please cut down on the double posts, there is an edit button for if you have forgot something.

On the Sufficient Velocity forums, this is called "Spaghetti posting". It's pretty infamous, and a bad habit there. The mods there have started cracking down on it.

I personally see their point. It's far, far better if you try to construct a single coherent response.

I'm also not really sure on the 'anger' bit, in my experience being on forums where spaghetti posting normally occurs it's just... something that happens when a debate gets going. No anger involved really.

[Guest]

Can we not cut up what people say like this please, sure this thread means a lot to you personally but post cutting just shows a form of anger.

Please cut down on the double posts, there is an edit button for if you have forgot something.

On the Sufficient Velocity forums, this is called "Spaghetti posting". It's pretty infamous, and a bad habit there. The mods there have started cracking down on it.

I personally see their point. It's far, far better if you try to construct a single coherent response.

I'm also not really sure on the 'anger' bit, in my experience being on forums where spaghetti posting normally occurs it's just... something that happens when a debate gets going. No anger involved really.

This has nothing to do with the current threads topic. Please stay on topic.

[nbielinski]

Erm, just gonna pop in and say a lot of these claims seem out right insane. Personally, I play atmospheric tech every round I am on. And sure that means I'm not sitting in the engineering lobby 24/7 but it means I can take a peek. And a lot of the claims of, "They prepare weapons RIGHT at the shift start." Seem to relate to someone observing and ten minutes after things go to shit see one or two engineers start to prepare weaponry. Now I'm not saying its a bad thing or its a good thing I'm just saying it happens. But claiming that the entire department and every engineer seems itching to make a flamethrower or stun gloves seems a bit ludicrous. Many, many, MANY rounds. Hell even rounds where the antags are banging at the door of engineering, but rarely do they arm themselves "to the teeth" as you put it and prepare themselves for war.

Now of course there are exceptions, rounds where there is no CE or sane engineer to guide those more violent on the correct path. And sure those incidents happen. But we have to remember, that there have also been rounds where nuke ops organize DnD games and the crew arms themselves with shotguns. Honestly, we've all seen a lot worse. Though don't mistake me for condoning this.

I'm simply stating that it seems this argument stems from a few little pebbles that have sprung up in the road and they're being revisited with a magnifying glass. In doing so we've made it seem as though every engineer carries stun gloves and a metal bat, which is simply not the case. Nor is it the case that engineering arms themselves like a militia and prepares for war without a really good damn reason (I.E Security has died off in a 5 bomb explosion and the crew is going mad..and yes..that has happened..) and defense is needed. I'm somewhat surprised this idea is being visited though with such an introduction.

I pose a challenge, show me the round where engineering (and I mean all of them as you put it) made bats and stun gloves and other weapons and placed them in plain view within 10 minutes of the round starting. And by Cthulhu I will eat my own shoes.

[Frances]

Okay, the fight between security and engineering is a bit silly. Don't use other people's shitty actions as an excuse to get them to leave you alone - justify your own actions in an appropriate manner, then call out others for their misbehavior as a completely separate debate.

That aside, I can agree with Jamini. Militias aren't bad by default, and while engineering arming up at roundstart is unacceptable, no clear evidence of this being a regular issue has been provided thus far.

[nbielinski]

That aside, I can agree with Jamini. Militias aren't bad by default, and while engineering arming up at roundstart is unacceptable, no clear evidence of this being a regular issue has been provided thus far.

 

My point exactly, we seem to have TONS of evidence of engineers not setting up their own little security task force at the start of the shift, but for some reason we seem to be running the opposing side of the argument on the basis that of a few people feeling that engineering armed themselves too well a few times, and somehow that has become common place.

[Frances]

My point exactly, we seem to have TONS of evidence of engineers not setting up their own little security task force at the start of the shift, but for some reason we seem to be running the opposing side of the argument on the basis that of a few people feeling that engineering armed themselves too well a few times, and somehow that has become common place.

Well, I wouldn't say tons.

Most of the thread at the moment is an argument about which of security and engineering is the biggest sinner.

[nbielinski]

Well true, I somewhat did not wish to touch on the intermittent parts of the thread as they were..well.. a bit off topic frankly. But, let me put it in short. If you judge an entire department of wide ranging people with a vastly and quickly changing array of individual personalities and ideas on a very rigid selection of laws. Well then we end up making this thread a thousand pages long over who in engineering or security has sinned the most. And, well, that doesn't solve jack.

-EDIT-

 

My point exactly, we seem to have TONS of evidence of engineers not setting up their own little security task force at the start of the shift, but for some reason we seem to be running the opposing side of the argument on the basis that of a few people feeling that engineering armed themselves too well a few times, and somehow that has become common place.

Well, I wouldn't say tons.

Most of the thread at the moment is an argument about which of security and engineering is the biggest sinner.

 

Oh, sorry, when I said tons of evidence I mean, we've all seen and many of us have stated that there are many, many rounds where engineering does not arm themselves up as much as is stated, and in comparison there has been little evidence to support, "Engineers arming themselves at the rounds start"

[Guest]

MEEP WOW MUCH POSTS SO DEPTH.

Okay. Let's put it simply, and see if we can put this to rest.

Self-defense is completely okay. But, as the term suggests, it's pretty much a last resort. Your first decision should be based on trying to run. If you're a civvie, you're doing it to live and not to die because you have reasons to live. Just do what makes sense, and turn LOOC off when you kick dat antags' teeth in with stun gloves.

If you're military/sec/whatever, you're running to reposition and kick the fucking ass out of that antag later when you have a better edge. Pulse rifles are good edges, to me.

Simple? Can we nod our heads in agreement to this?

[Frances]

If you're a civvie, you're doing it to live and not to die because you have reasons to live.

If you're military/sec/whatever, you're running to reposition and kick the fucking ass out of that antag

I feel like I'd rather not enforce blanket rules on the combat roles of every department/job, especially if there's no need for it (and I would say in general the combat participation of the server is rather healthy atm).

There /are/ some cases where civilians playing heroes can be epic, funny, or simply justified. And I'd also like to see cases of security defecting a lot more ("Terrorists? Fuck this, I'm out")

[Guest]

That's totally okay, too.

I just mean the really dumb, ridiculous situations where people take down the antag just to win/the hell of it rather than trying to have fun, that I find bad.

[Frances]

That's totally okay, too.

I just mean the really dumb, ridiculous situations where people take down the antag just to win/the hell of it rather than trying to have fun, that I find bad.

Well, I believe the general rule is "avoid pain/dying". Another rule which is unspoken (but should be obvious is) "don't break the previous rule to make stupidly heroic characters".

Everything else could be left to player (and staff) interpretation. If someone has a good enough reason to put themselves in danger, they could. Duty goes (as sec), but wanting to protect your friends (as anyone) also goes. I think what matters isn't how badly people want to fight terrorist, but that they should roleplay realistically (if you're playing someone who isn't combat trained, but are super robust OOCly, you /should/ make a point to lose to the nuke ops. Using all of your power to beat them sorta falls as powergaming if you'd have no chance of winning a fight usually.