The engineering millitia

[Guest]

For the past week or two, engineers have started arming themselves to the teeth with stungloves, bats and all sorts of things they can get their hands on the moment the round starts, then they tend to leave their lairs in small coordinated groups of valid kill hunters.

There's a fine line between not being able to escalate force properly and silently rushing toward whatever the round antagonist is, ignoring broken limbs, bullets, lack of combat experience and a supposed fear of death so you can stunglove them, cuff them and steal their things.

Scientists are not allowed to print out guns, arm their whole department and hunt antags.

Chemists are not allowed to make chloral and poly acid spray at the beginning of the round to hunt antags.

Hell, even security isnt allowed to put on their armor before the sec level is elevated to blue.

I think engineers should not be allowed to make spears, bats, crossbows, stungloves and the like at round start just like the departments I counted above.

Engineers enjoy a civillian protection when it comes to Antags, which means that you're not allowed to shoot them to death on sight, this makes it problematic to do anything when an engineer you're not yet allowed to shoot turns out to have stungloves and a kitchen knife.

Further more I'd like to express scorn toward certain people playing in a chief engineer position, who seem to have taken to having their characters join the valid hunts, rather than at least trying to discourage them. We already have a sec force to hunt antags with, we dont need a second one with more access than the first.

[GreenLightbulb]

Personally, the only time I've seen engineers arm themselves is once there is a confirmed threat, and then they usually turtle. As in, set up a field generator (On code red, lock down the engine), don a hardsuit, and maybe fashion some makeshift weapon and then just... Hold the fort until they're needed to repair, then head out in groups of around two.

While there is definitely a rapid arms race once the shit hits the fan, I've never really seen engineers do much besides panic and lock themselves into engineering... Though I haven't been playing very much in the past few weeks.

[Frances]

If this is a major issue involving several players, the best course of action would be to talk to these players and make them understand this kind of behavior isn't okay (because I'm fairly sure it's never *all* of engineering).

People shouldn't arm up without valid reason. If you see someone making personal defense weapons "just in case", or "because their character is paranoid", ahelp it?

[SgtSammac]

I play engineering and I have NEVER DONE this, and NEVER SEEN this happen. If you do see this happening report it via a help,so,it can be dealt with.

[NebulaFlare]

I play engineering as well, and the farthest I've gone is making stungloves when no threat was present. However, that was my method of carrying a powercell with me. Sadly, that has been fixed, so there's no point anymore.

I don't think I've ever seen engineers make weapons and powergame against antags, unless there's already a prime conflict going on.

[Guest]

I play engineering as well, and the farthest I've gone is making stungloves when no threat was present. However, that was my method of carrying a powercell with me. Sadly, that has been fixed, so there's no point anymore.

I don't think I've ever seen engineers make weapons and powergame against antags, unless there's already a prime conflict going on.

 

I've seen powergame by engineers and reported it to admins. They've said something will be done soon. However

I've seen a lot more, not just stun gloves. Bomb and RCD rushing the AI goes into, as well armed response towards non-hostile antags fall into the same category. Priority should be on trying to stimulate RP, not fighting.

[Skull132]

I've seen this happen once, personally, which was during a cult round the day before yesterday. Engineering literally had bats on their table, and most of them were armed with stungloves. Mind you, they were content to just sit there, and the station had already dipped into a massive shitstorm prior to that, so I was content to let them sit there.

There are roughly two approaches to this. First would be simply managing the people. Which, babysitting a department as an admin is odd, but it can be done. Or just a general statement regarding engineering arming themselves before a certain point.

The other thing, which we're partially doing, is nerfing some of their tools. Namely, the insta-down never-miss stungloves. They are abhorridly powerful, and give a very clear advantage to a user untrained in combat. They've already received one nerf (they no longer fit in webbings and so forth, so carrying them is bulkier), and I'm inclined to see about making them work like tasers, perhaps. Hopefully, removing cheap and relic weaponry from their arsenal make them feel more fragile.

The one troubling comment is, the initial modification to stungloves was spotted roughly 5 minutes after the update was put live. During an extended round. By a non-antag CE. So, yeah. Stop powergaming, please. If science isn't allowed to make weaponry for the keks, then engineering shouldn't be allowed to carry around stungloves 4noraisins.

EDIT:

And as far as antagging goes. If you see engineering armed with things like this. Feel free to take more drastic measures against them. An armed individual in SS13 does not enjoy the protection of being civilian to an antag.

[Jamini]

I've rarely seen this happen, and virtually every time it does there is a large, confirmed threat on the station which is generally killing people (civilians).

If this happens, report it to their boss. If their boss doesn't do anything, report it to the captain and ahelp it. If you are an antag, don't be too worried about taking out someone who is blatantly armed. (Which should include engineers with bats, hulk geneticists, anyone in security, or armed scientists.) By arming up, they are making themselves a valid target.

As for stun gloves, lets please not nerf them without providing a suitable alternative. If we port over baystations improvised weapon code (which includes cattle prods and spears.) then maybe, but denying people the ability to arm up will just make aurora feel even more security-centric and drive people out of other departments and into the hugely bloated security department.

 

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Slightly Off-Topic, but relevant:

Virtually /every/ single person I try and get to try Aurora already complain that we are far too security-focused when it comes to antagonists(mind, these are people from Baystation, which is ALSO very heavily security-focused!). We probably need to keep away from putting too much power and responsibility in the hands of security alone. Security doesn't exist to solely fight antagonists, and other departments need to be involved/permitted to act against antagonists.

I, personally, see no issue with allowing scientists, engineers,civilians, and medics to arm up. As long as said players understand that by doing so they are making themselves a valid target. Frankly, I prefer seeing the station arm up against a common foe over seeing an ERT called. It's more fun for the players, and doesn't bring in an outside Deus Ex Machina to save the day.

[Skull132]

The thing about Baystation is. Their batons don't instastun anymore, unless they reverted. Ergo, no one has access to instastun weaponry. So even importing their stunprod wouldn't change anything.

[Conservatron]

as engineering last night's cult round I can say this.

I made the one bat we had (that I know of), made it because something came in and started breaking lights and not knowing what it was. Wasn't aware we had all that other stuff. That said we didn't do anything unless it came to us, and then we tried to resolve it peacefully rather than through force. Only time I actually used the bat was when I was hiding behind the side of a door waiting for the thing to get in to swing at it around a corner.

I think there are two sides to it. Obviously engineering shouldn't be arming up when there is no threat, but we have the knowledge and materials to create things in an emergency. To mitigate, perhaps remove plasteel bat, and transfer metal bat to the autolathe under the illegal items subheading. Then, having a bat would be considered a crime to begin with unless explicit authorization is given by head or higher ranking officer.

[Jamini]

The thing about Baystation is. Their batons don't instastun anymore, unless they reverted. Ergo, no one has access to instastun weaponry. So even importing their stunprod wouldn't change anything.

 

Cattle prods are weapons. You hold them. They can be disarmed. Unlike stungloves.

Frankly, security shouldn't have the monopoly on instastun weapons of any kind. Either everyone can acquire something, or nobody can.

 

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I'm going to outright say this. Militias are healthy for the game.

Civilians should be allowed to arm up and protect themselves. They shouldn't be expected to sit back and let HEROES OF THE STATION. SECURITY AND ERT ONLY handle every little thing. Yes, they have roles. They should fill those roles. No, they shouldn't hunt antagonists actively. They should, however, be permitted to defend themselves. If the situation is bad enough, they should be allowed to fight back.

I will repeat this again and again. Security should not have a monopoly on resisting or countering antagonists. That is counter to everything SS13 stands for. While Aurora may consider itself different, in the end of the day we are still part of that community. Outright rejecting that one basic tenant of the game we play is, frankly, wrong.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Guest

[Jakers457]

This is why I've taken to using force gloves and revolver. If the civilian whips his manhood out and attempts to be robust, you either shoot him dead or beat the crap out of him with a crowbar. It might sound overly robust, but if you point a gun at them and they try to rush you like an idiot, don't give it a second thought and put them down. It's their choice to not get on the ground.

[Jamini]

This is why I've taken to using force gloves and revolver. If the civilian whips his manhood out and attempts to be robust, you either shoot him dead or beat the crap out of him with a crowbar. It might sound overly robust, but if you point a gun at them and they try to rush you like an idiot, don't give it a second thought and put them down. It's their choice to not get on the ground.

 

Also 100% true.

[Erik Tiber]

The thing about Baystation is. Their batons don't instastun anymore, unless they reverted. Ergo, no one has access to instastun weaponry. So even importing their stunprod wouldn't change anything.

 

Cattle prods are weapons. You hold them. They can be disarmed. Unlike stungloves.

Frankly, security shouldn't have the monopoly on instastun weapons of any kind. Either everyone can acquire something, or nobody can.

 

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I'm going to outright say this. Militias are healthy for the game.

Civilians should be allowed to arm up and protect themselves. They shouldn't be expected to sit back and let HEROES OF THE STATION. SECURITY AND ERT ONLY handle every little thing. Yes, they have roles. They should fill those roles. No, they shouldn't hunt antagonists actively. They should, however, be permitted to defend themselves. If the situation is bad enough, they should be allowed to fight back.

I will repeat this again and again. Security should not have a monopoly on resisting or countering antagonists. That is counter to everything SS13 stands for. While Aurora may consider itself different, in the end of the day we are still part of that community. Outright rejecting that one basic tenant of the game we play is, frankly, wrong.

A big problem is that sec is quite horrible at fear RP and has little to no sense of self-preservation. It would be nice if everyone actually had a sense of self-preservation and didn't go and suicidally rush antags. That should apply to civilians and security.

The solution isn't that civilians should just go and arm themselves to the teeth and rush an antag. I will note that you yourself have twice rushed the AI with an RCD as an engineer, only days apart. It's that we should ensure that people actually have a sense of self-preservation.

For some perspective, I am fine with purely defensive measures. Two nights ago, during a nuke op round, the ops had encountered engineers, apparently engineers had been shot at. Everyone was quite terrified. My character at the time, Mongwa Kirongozi, was a former hacker/criminal (primarily white collar stuff). She hacked into the bar backroom for the shotgun, then realized it couldn't be concealed. So she hacked into the cargo autolathe, got a circular saw, hacked back into the bar, sawed off the shotgun, then hacked the cargo autolathe again to make some ammunition for it, as well as a flamethrower. Then she made a few flamethrowers for engineering for self-defense purposes, while they set up a shield generator. At no point did people actually go out and try to fight these antags. I didn't even know if the flamethrowers would work. And my actions may well have been excessive.

However, there is a difference between going and taking a shotgun when you know there are armed terrorists with assault rifles running around, and rushing the AI with an RCD, twice. My character, at one point, was sent to the telecomms sattelite to get it back up and running, and nearly shot the captain when she walked into the control room, because Mongwa was terrified of the heavily armed terrorists. But I didn't try making a bomb, because bomb making is hard and my character probably doesn't know it ICly, and I didn't try making stungloves, because ICly it's far more useful to be able to actually have some safety when dealing with wires, and because she's not stupid and doesn't want to call attention to herself by blatantly fashioning weapons out of the blue. And I certainly didn't charge into a place where there were known antags.

If I were to encounter an antag, my character's primary goal would be to get the hell out of there and survive. That was my sole objective the entire time; absolutely everything else is secondary. Going and RCD-rushing an AI is not at all in line with self-preservation as a primary objective.

[Jamini]

I will note that you yourself have twice rushed the AI with an RCD as an engineer, only days apart. It's that we should ensure that people actually have a sense of self-preservation.

 

This is none of your business. It has been discussed and handled with administration. You do not have the entire picture on the situation regarding this, nor are you in any position to judge me for my actions. Doubly so when one remembers that the CE and RD (and by extension, their departments) are the people who are directly responsible for the AI and, in fact, are obligated to act when the AI is not acting properly.

 

If I were to encounter an antag, my character's primary goal would be to get the hell out of there and survive. That was my sole objective the entire time; absolutely everything else is secondary. Going and RCD-rushing an AI is not at all in line with self-preservation as a primary objective.

 

And I will repeat. The CE and RD, and their departments, are responsible for the AI. They are the people who are there to handle the damage, and take it down if it proves to be subverted or becomes a tangible threat. This isn't a case of rushing the antagonist, but rather filling one's role on the station. No different when security is required to go toe-to-toe with operatives, or try and find traitors who act against regulations.

[Erik Tiber]

I will note that you yourself have twice rushed the AI with an RCD as an engineer, only days apart. It's that we should ensure that people actually have a sense of self-preservation.

 

This is none of your business. It has been discussed and handled with administration. You do not have the entire picture on the situation regarding this, nor are you in any position to judge me for my actions. Doubly so when one remembers that the CE and RD (and by extension, their departments) are the people who are directly responsible for the AI and, in fact, are obligated to act when the AI is not acting properly.

I'm not familiar enough with the incident to argue this point effectively.

If I were to encounter an antag, my character's primary goal would be to get the hell out of there and survive. That was my sole objective the entire time; absolutely everything else is secondary. Going and RCD-rushing an AI is not at all in line with self-preservation as a primary objective.

 

And I will repeat. The CE and RD, and their departments, are responsible for the AI. They are the people who are there to handle the damage, and take it down if it proves to be subverted or becomes a tangible threat. This isn't a case of rushing the antagonist, but rather filling one's role on the station. No different when security is required to go toe-to-toe with operatives, or try and find traitors who act against regulations.

Then explain why the changes to stun gloves were found only 5 minutes after an extended round started, by a chief engineer no less. Why should they be making stun gloves when no threat is present? Evidently they are exceeding their responsibilities, or pursuing them in an overzealous manner. I'm very hesitant with militias, at least now, because right now chief engineers are apparently in the habit of making stun gloves 5 minutes into the round, and I wouldn't doubt that other engineers do the same.

You stated earlier that if you see an engineer doing this, you should report this to their boss. But as has been shown earlier, even chief engineers have gone and armed up in situations where they have absolutely no reason to do so. It is inarguable that engineering, both the CE and others, have armed up in situations where there was no threat at all, nor any forseeable threat. The only argument is over how often they do this.

Engineering is the only one that consistently makes these militia groups. I'm totally fine with a militia if the people aren't powergaming or playing to win, but given that the most prominent militia department has a history of powergaming, I'm not so sure that the players are even ready to make militias. The major problem is with security having no sense of self-preservation and being terrible at fear RP. Given that this is the apparent standard of light RP action, I would not want other departments descending to the same standard.

[Jamini]

Then explain why the changes to stun gloves were found only 5 minutes after an extended round started, by a chief engineer no less. Why should they be making stun gloves when no threat is present? Evidently they are exceeding their responsibilities, or pursuing them in an overzealous manner. I'm very hesitant with militias, at least now, because right now chief engineers are apparently in the habit of making stun gloves 5 minutes into the round, and I wouldn't doubt that other engineers do the same.

 

There is one chief engineer character who I know of that does this, out of perhaps FOUR regulars. Considering I was the one who told scopes that the change should be made after I had talked with said character about it ICly perhaps you should focus less on demonizing the whole department and look into why things are done. Or perhaps, even, play engineering for a few rounds yourself.

As an aside, the player in question had stated they did so in order to fit a power cell into their webbing. Not to have a weapon on-hand at all times. The truth and validity of that argument isn't for me to decide.

And if you want me to start breaking down various engineering regulars. I will. Since I know MOST of them quite well.

 

You stated earlier that if you see an engineer doing this, you should report this to their boss. But as has been shown earlier, even chief engineers have gone and armed up in situations where they have absolutely no reason to do so. It is inarguable that engineering, both the CE and others, have armed up in situations where there was no threat at all, nor any forseeable threat. The only argument is over how often they do this.

 

Except we do not. If you played engineering with any regularly, you would know that isn't the case. You are committing a massive logical fallacy here.

One Chief Engineer Made Stungloves at Round Start > Making Stungloves without a reason is powergaming > Thus all engineers are milita-forming powergamers.

 

Engineering is the only one that consistently makes these militia groups.

 

Blatantly false. I've routinely seen medics accompany and assist security. And cargo/mining/bartender are just as likely to militia up as engineering is. If not moreso. (Since THEY don't have the need to actually, y'know, FIX things that break.)

 

I'm totally fine with a militia if the people aren't powergaming or playing to win, but given that the most prominent militia department has a history of powergaming,

 

Massive assumption, and also untrue.

 

I'm not so sure that the players are even ready to make militias. The major problem is with security having no sense of self-preservation and being terrible at fear RP. Given that this is the apparent standard of light RP action, I would not want other departments descending to the same standard.

 

We don't. We won't.

[Valkrae]

As a Security player, who plays Security most of the time.

I feel really targeted when people immediately put every single problem that arises within a department onto Security. Yes, we can be overzealous. Yes, we can be a bit powergamey, but, /EVERY/ department can easily do it.

Science can make stun revolvers.

Engineering can make stungloves(anyone can, actually.)

Medical can make gas that literally MELTS YOU.

Cargo can order crates of MacGuffin level weaponry.

Why are we so dead-set on throwing ever single bit of blame onto Security? It seems that the second a problem arises that has /ANYTHING/ to do with an antag, it's immediately Securities fault for being overzealous.

Well, We're doing our jobs. Most of Security on this station are ex-military or something similar, as it should be. NanoTrasen hires people that do not crack under pressure. Fear RP doesn't apply as much to an ex-military Security Officer on a high-tech research facility, as it does to a Medical Doctor who has never held a gun in their life.

Food for thought, I guess.

[Guest]

It is assumed Security personnel are trained and/or drilled for worst case scenarios. Cops are trained for the worst in academy. Soldiers are drilled for the worst in Basic/boot camp. PMCs have previous background in the former, and consistently deal with the issues the former have, if not even worse.

The self-defense argument doesn't work if it's the same engineer making stun gloves over and over again every secret rotation and charging antagonists with them. There is no counter to stun gloves as they are easily concealable (in fact, examining an engineer with stun gloves on only shows the sprite for standard insulated gloves, despite the fact that the gloves are wired and hooked up to a big-ass battery just above the wrist, which is very obvious. I call it an oversight, however) and really easy to acquire.

Corporate Militias make the command staff and the company itself look very bad. There is a reason why we have security personnel to deal with code red situations. And why civilians are civilians, and aren't released weaponry.

Let me tell you about the time I attempted to arm civilian staff with weaponry as a captain, partly because there was ONE 19-year-old security cadet walking around with a laser rifle and a standard armored vest patrolling around, hoping to god they wouldn't get shot at by nuke ops, and partly because I believed the personnel I armed up were responsible enough to realize the weaponry was for self-defense and not for hunting antags.

Guess what they did? They hunted antags anyway.

A nuke op was spotted down in engineering. The atmos tech, the two engineers and a combat-trained surgeon rushed down to engineering while I was attempting to help medical out with accessing cadavers/trapped personnel, to shoot up one nuke op with dual SMGs.

The nuke op killed the atmos tech, gave the surgeon a broken skull and gave one of the two engineers internal bleeding. The nuke op was alive, BARELY. I grabbed a cryo bag just in time to save them.

As soon as I moved the surgeon to medbay via a roller bed with the cryobagged nuke op behind me, the engineers hacked into engineering with a fire axe. They opened the cryobag with a critical patient, took their fire axe and gibbed every single limb off of the nuke op who I was trying to save.

And the thing that disgusted me the most was the fact that I enabled these people to act this way. I shut myself in my office, called an ERT to clean the mess up and sat in my office while getting talked to by the administration for this awful event.

I do NOT tolerate nor believe self-defense cases at face value because of this. I KNOW that most engineers, will go to absolutely ridiculous lengths to involve themselves in conflict, to try to be that hero asshole and get their green-text while getting patched up by medical like nothing ever happened. I did not pity those engineers for getting killed at all, despite my insistence that they 1.) Stay together and 2.) stay the fuck out of trouble because they aren't live-fire combatants.

You know why I insist security be the only ones involved in live-fire conflict with nuke ops? Because it makes sense. Civilians should not be on the front-line charging head-long into antagonist paths. Security, in a worst-case scenario, is trained to sacrifice their own lives in an attempt to bring peace to the station. Everyone else has their own jobs, and that's not to get themselves in a position where they can get killed.

[Jamini]

Delta, I do not really see why the incident you outlined is any different than say:

1. A HOS executing a ling who had done almost nothing aggressive.

2. A security officer with a sniper rifle shooting a traitor that had the HOS hostage five times, when the first shot downed said traitor.

3. A security department as a whole that spent THREE HOURS chasing and being utterly humiliated by a skilled ninja, who's main crime was simply existing.

...and so on, and so forth.

Doubly so when one takes into account that three of the four involved persons in your engineering militia were in their own department defending it, and probably would have gotten shot up ANYWAY for being there. Their injuries and deaths were their own faults, not yours.

I'll bring up some successful militias I've had while working with Jackboot/Jawdat. I've been in a breacher before, with Senzi, moving people to safe areas and doing my damnedest to scare off the operatives with gun and presence. More times than I can count I've seen engineers sit in the lobby with weapons made, because security was either outright /dead/ or /unable/ to spare an officer. I've also shot up plenty of my own engineers as operative, Vox, wizard, and changling if they were hostile. I've outright killed a few members of my own department as well, if they refused to comply with my demands as a cultist.

From an OOC perspective: Going Militia is fun for a lot of players. /really, really/ fun. While ERT calls and sitting in the bar for hours are generally not for station staff. I would much rather a game be played with everyone involved, then be forced into a singular activity by admin intervention. That means, occasionally, having a militia from civilian, medical, or engineering spring up.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Having weapons is fine. Arming up in face of a threat is totally reasonable.

I just wish the engineer militia would continue the trend of avoiding combat, and just turtling. A lot of the engineer militia want to win the fight, but it'd be lovely if people ran from combat even if they were armed.

And ugh, stungloves. They're such butts, I hate them. I'm developing an itchy trigger finger around engineers and have to resist capping them everytime they get too close when I'm antagonist.

[Guest]

1. This is not about the success of militias, chloral hydrate is succesful but you're still not allowed to fill the syringe gun with it and carry it around at round start as a doctor.

2. Shooting civillians is off limits, and I can already see that simply shooting at engineers standing somewhere in a hallway because they might have stungloves would be seen as an excuse to murderbone, and punished. As long as I dont have a guarantee that people who participate in engineering millitias wont make a complaint after they get outrobusted by the antag they're hunting, claiming "Gank" or "Bad RP", I will be against them.

3. Expanding on the previous point, stun gloves are disguised and can not be seen even if you shift click an engineer. Any engineer could potentially 1-hit KO you, and since they have a tendency to ignore fear and pain RP you actually have to start shooting at them from a distance to make sure they fall into paincrit/get decapitated before they manage to get in stun distance.

Security already ignores painRP and FeaRP, I dont need a second department which ignores feaRP painRP. Assuming that the current anti-murderbone rules stay in place, there is no proper way to defend yourself against an engineering militia.

[GreenLightbulb]

I definitely think its dumb that stun-gloves aren't visible when shift clicking, or even on the sprites. That should be changed, as they are kinda OP...

Also, I know that I, personally, fully expect to be attacked and killed if I ever pick up anything that could be used as a weapon while near an antag. Also, I apparently need to re-read the rules because I was unaware of the "no killing civis" rule. Or I forgot. Likely the latter.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Just because x does it doesn't mean it's justified for y to do it. Stop that logic. We do not all piss in the sandbox during recess because you saw some other kid do it first.

Arming yourself is completely reasonable, and that's a totes fine thing to do. If someone is running around murdering things, any reasonable person will either: 1) Hide 2) Scream forever and never stop 3) grab the nearest object that makes them feel safer.

As CE or engineer with Sirasairot, a former soldier on Moghes, I usually grab a flash, and never make stungloves. They just seem OP rekt weapons to me.But the matter is, having a weapon doesn't automatically justify you using it, or snapping and undergoing complete fucking psychosis and amputating everyone who looked at you funny. That shit doesn't fly, and I hit back against it IC when I can. I've flashed more than a few people who tried to murder antagonists after they were down.

[Guest]

Right, considering everyone agrees at this point that stun gloves are a bad deal, let's continue the discussion on civilian militia and why it's bad.

Every department has its own lane. Security's sole lane is to deal with hostiles and criminals. When security fails, or is unable to deal with them, it's somewhat acceptable for others to fend for themselves, because it would be a necessity, fight or die kind of situation. However, what happens, is that people retroactivelly take on criminals that aren't even endangering their lives, robbing security of their sole purpose and ruining antag's day.

Imagine if security started keeping electric gloves and gear and doing gheto surgery, maybe even an autolithe to produce all those flashlights, crowbars and bounce radios security needs for their continous work. After all, why wouldn't security take care of its members and its territory. That would be nice.

Other than that, although I see the point of civies choosing to fight voiding their own existance, keep in mind that this being allowed is a difference of 5 nuke ops vs. 5 officers and 5 nuke ops vs. a station of 20 armed personnel. You want bombings and chaos? This is how you get bombings and chaos.