IPC Medical Rework Ideas

[FrozenDahliaRose]

On 30/04/2024 at 11:09, Jaeger Brothers said:

Just saying something here, No argueing just trying to broaden this a bit, Nanopaste is the only way an IPC can self-heal in a Pinch if they need it, and if we added components it could be exclusively acting as something as IPC first aid and a small nerf reducing how many are in the stack yes, but since we can't self heal every IPC is generally fucked after combat and especially the Lighter frames so nanopaste could be nerfed to act like duct tape for voidsuits or a splint, Just keeping the part alive for one or two shots until they can reach a machinist and get healed properly, You know?

Not sure if this thread is still in the 'people are free to bring up points in the discussion' phase, but working off of this point, I'd like to bring up an aspect I haven't seen mentioned here yet (at least I don't think it was mentioned), that being untagged shells.

But particularly with the removal of nanopaste, I think it's important that it, or something similar (that being a way for IPCs to repair damage to themselves without a machinist), stays specifically because without it, playing as an untagged shell goes from playing on hard mode to downright impossible.

I recently made and have started playing as an untagged shell, and from my experiences so far, a lot of the damage mechanics on the server makes playing this niche extremely difficult. Particularly the fact that wounds show up on the body (through clothes even) and for an IPC, those wounds are black rather than red. For a character that's essentially breaking the law by existing, that's probably a good thing. It keeps it as a very conscious choice that requires a lot of mindfulness when playing the character. 

But, since IPCs can't repair themselves with a welder and wires like a machinist can, and a trip to the machinist will immediately out them, an untagged shell's only option is nanopaste. Removing nanopaste would make playing an untagged shell nearly impossible, or at the very least, extremely unenjoyable to play, even for those that do enjoy the existing challenge such a character poses. 

 

[greenjoe]

42 minutes ago, NM_ said:

To Become

• Able to look and blend seamlessly across human societies.

 

does this mean shells will have ways to trick stuff like suit sensors and health scanners/huds?

[Noble Row]

1 minute ago, greenjoe said:

does this mean shells will have ways to trick stuff like suit sensors and health scanners/huds?

For now it just means they look human. More thought will have to go into untagged shells. A few of these things are still under discussion/won't be able to be known until development starts.

[NM_]

7 minutes ago, FrozenDahliaRose said:

Not sure if this thread is still in the 'people are free to bring up points in the discussion' phase, but working off of this point, I'd like to bring up an aspect I haven't seen mentioned here yet (at least I don't think it was mentioned), that being untagged shells.

But particularly with the removal of nanopaste, I think it's important that it, or something similar (that being a way for IPCs to repair damage to themselves without a machinist), stays specifically because without it, playing as an untagged shell goes from playing on hard mode to downright impossible.

I recently made and have started playing as an untagged shell, and from my experiences so far, a lot of the damage mechanics on the server makes playing this niche extremely difficult. Particularly the fact that wounds show up on the body (through clothes even) and for an IPC, those wounds are black rather than red. For a character that's essentially breaking the law by existing, that's probably a good thing. It keeps it as a very conscious choice that requires a lot of mindfulness when playing the character. 

But, since IPCs can't repair themselves with a welder and wires like a machinist can, and a trip to the machinist will immediately out them, an untagged shell's only option is nanopaste. Removing nanopaste would make playing an untagged shell nearly impossible, or at the very least, extremely unenjoyable to play, even for those that do enjoy the existing challenge such a character poses. 

 

Hi! Feedback is always welcome at any stage.

 

We aren't planning to remove nanopaste or its current functionality at this time. This is something that we'll have a better picture of where it falls in the grand scheme of things as we get closer to implementing the full rework, so it was better for us not to comment on it too much for now.

[greenjoe]

 

56 minutes ago, NM_ said:

We would prefer keeping radiation shielding for IPCs intact.

I feel as if IPCs keeping full on radiation immunity wouldn't be great, and the radiation lingering is just gonna lead to others becoming irradiated.
Different levels of resistance for different frames could work out however.

[hazelmouse]

This all looks extremely promising, but my thought is that it also seems to cover an ambitious amount of ground. From what I can tell the core of this rework seems to be an expansion to IPC organs. I think I'd like to see a very singular focus on making the new organs work and getting them coded first, before anything else. I'll focus on them.

• I like the idea of EMPs triggering emergency power rather than immediately downing you. It'd force synthetics to disengage rather than flooring them outright, and an inability to really get synthetics to disengage without killing them is a problem right now.
• I really like the voice box and internal diagnostic suite organs. Losing the ability to coherently speak and losing the warnings of your current damage are both excellent reasons for you to disengage, similar to an organic receiving fractures or bleeds, that don't involve dying. I think it'd be beneficial if the loss of any organ were very clearly communicated - maybe in large red text in the chat, so you can notice it while in combat.
• I'm sceptical of the hydraulics and actuator organs in the lower body and arms. Targeting synthetic limbs is already common to slow them down just from how damaged prosthetic limbs already work, this feels as if it'd awkwardly perform the same function simultaneously.
• The power and cooling organs look interesting. I like the trade-off of water cooling allowing you for run for longer but requiring replacement coolant, against air cooling not requiring any coolant but limiting your sprint time. It'd also be extremely funny if you could burn yourself by taking the heat sinks out without gloves. I assume that, if damaged, the power organ would obstruct or prevent recharging, and the coolant organ would reduce your ability to sprint - both seem like good reasons to disengage. 

Edited October 26 by hazelmouse

[dessysalta]

Completely agree with Comet, I like the proposed changes, although I have to say that bioshells/organic reactors are a novel concept and should absolutely be explored/implemented if not soon then on a long enough timeline. I think we'd be the only server to approach them with a degree of seriousness, one that isn't just "robots but human bodies". (And please do not limit them to a single frame.)

As a suggestion, I recommend the parts that can be swapped out not be too restrictive mechanically but instead ICly. There would be some exceptions, but for instance having some kind of Zavodskoi patented design only for use in Z.I.s or particularly custom or expensive off-brand posis I think would add to the depth of a lot of characters without leading to a FOMO moment of having not picked the "cool" or "meta" frame for whatever's trying to be accomplished. Or maybe having certain parts cost loadout points a la the augment system?

Baselines being able to mix and match is an okay start, but I fear this will run into situations where it's only baselines with strange limbs or parts inside of them. In fact I think it would neuter some existing scrapper characters that rely off the gimmick of not being constructed correctly or being jury-rigged to function. Part of the appeal of being able to mix and match is the justification behind it, and having the freedom to have a certain trait or belief or whatever (see: Unathi's gender roles and religion) so long as you can reasonably justify it makes for very interesting and diverse characters. I wouldn't like to see too many instances of a megacorp having an interesting system or unorthodox piece of tech just for the sake of giving it to them. I'm sort of torn between the two spectrums—realistically most of what could be suggested for unusual or nonstandard power sources and components would already be available and experimented upon in the public market, and so restricting them to frame or megacorp would suck in a lot of instances (and then you'd have to draw a line about what "is" or "isn't" too complex/available for a certain frame, etc.)

I'd also like to echo what's been said about untagged shells. They exist and there should be some safety precautions in place to make sure they aren't outed so easily. Personally I'd suggest additional ways to repair themselves in private without risking being seen as what they are, as the nebulous warning message for trying to repair yourself seems to not make much sense for the three-decades-self-owned synthetic with a degree in engineering.

As far as radiation immunity, I'd make it a visual thing like we saw on Konyang iirc. The more radiation they absorb, the harder it becomes to see things until they either decon or visit a machinist (or rest for awhile). Goes hand in hand with how radiation affects cameras IRL without being too disruptive and still enforcing their superiority over the organic dude in a radstorm.

[greenjoe]

How is IPC perma-death planned to be handled? If the Posibrain is able to be recovered or not, etc, and if it might have any permanent damage from being damaged.

[Snowy1237]

I'm also curious regarding greenjoe's question, currently IPC revival is not documented anywhere and is very unintuitive, being very likely to mess up someone's round by accidentially turning them into a cyborg. I hope this gets changed.

[TeslaBeam]

While I am also curious about whether there are plans to change this, to this specific point:

13 hours ago, Snowy1237 said:

I'm also curious regarding greenjoe's question, currently IPC revival is not documented anywhere and is very unintuitive, being very likely to mess up someone's round by accidentially turning them into a cyborg. I hope this gets changed.

IPC revival is currently outlined here:

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Guide_to_Robotics#IPC_revival

[Snowy1237]

Well, good to know!

[FlamingLily]

I'm here to necropost with my thoughts.

I LOVE the idea of IPCs having actual software injuries, and I hope there'll be a way to work that in for non-antag stuff.

 

I don't like the idea of a baseline being the only frame to be able to mix and match parts, that kind of shuts down some character concepts (including one of mine, hence why I don't like it)

HOWEVER, I think this idea is salvageable with some kind of organ-rejection analogue, where an IPC of a non-baseline frame has to undergo some form of treatment or diagnostic or something to properly acclimate to the new limb and to idk break in the firmware or some appropriately techy sounding reasoning.

I don't like the kinetic charger, it's just free electricity, it doesn't really make sense.

I think it would be neat if the unique frame traits were actual components that could get damaged (see: Shells and synthskin)

 

Also, and I'm spitballing without a real idea here, but Ion Storms.......... could be used..... for something

 

IMHO, the only time-critical thing about IPC health should be their batteries (or external sources of damage). Making IPCs take damage over time from any source is honestly too close to being a retexture of organic medical.

If you really want something time-ciritcal on an IPC, software injuries/viruses sounds like a good way to do it that wouldn't be too commonly seen in normal combat (and so wouldn't infringe on the whole organic schtick)

 

People have been saying "Hard to kill, easy to disable" about IPCs and I 100% agree, with an addendum: This makes them low priority both for a hostile force (deal with a component and you can probably safely ignore it) and for the horizon itself (it's not dying, it's just a bit beat up). I think having IPCs be kind of low priority on the medical/combat front (while still being engaging) is a good niche that organics don't have (and narratively quite potent)

[Mr.Popper]

Posting to note that you can't see a hatch is open on an IPC if clothing covers it. Making them all visible or adding that info to the scanner would be hugely appreciated. Also:

9 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

Also, and I'm spitballing without a real idea here, but Ion Storms.......... could be used..... for something

I love the idea of IPC viruses. Maybe ion storms could give every affected IPC a random one? Mechanical ones would be cool, but even flavor as simple as "You feel compelled to advertise Getmore's Carps Ahoy! Miniature Cookies" popping up repeatedly in red text would be great. The only issue is how IPCs would cope without a machinist, especially with more invasive viruses that affect movement or whatnot.

[OolongCow]

On 30/04/2024 at 09:46, hazelmouse said:

IPCs shouldn't be immortal. Somehow, there should be a way for a positronic brain to be beyond repair, or even destroyed once it's out of the frame. I legitimately enjoy being able to roleplay with people as a cube, but death for IPCs is badly trivialised when they're the only race in the game that can invariably be carted to the workshop and come back out as good as new as if it never happened.

Honestly? All you'd have to do is steal the code from crumpling paper. If someone picks up the positronic and activates it on harm intent, they start a channel bar action to crush it underfoot and destroy it.