IPC Medical Rework Ideas

[Noble Row]

Hello all,

As the title suggests I want to poll the community on ideas on how to make the IPC medical system more involved. The team already has a few ideas, but we'd like to see what the community thinks we should add or develop.

So far our problem statement is below:

"As of right now, IPCs are left in the stone age in terms of medical capability. They still operate on the ‘numbers go brrr’ system, and with their ability to ignore pain and lack of internal components, are stripped of another tier of depth that every other race experiences. However, we cannot act recklessly, as adding medical systems adds drawbacks to IPCs on top of nerfs that have already been put into place. We need to add balance, or a rework, to this system. Make them distinctly robotic, but at the same time, something that makes sense. Solutions will be categorized into three segments. Nerfs, Sidegrades, and Buffs. Nerfs are things that will make playing an IPC more fragile or difficult. Sidegrades will have a balanced change, and can be things such as more depth to existing mechanics. Buffs will be regarded as things that make IPCs more survivable. All of these changes, to be listed, must be different from what currently exists."

Our goal is to come out of this with a balanced system that does not add, nor detract, from the ability of the IPC, but adds depth to increase the enjoyability of playing the race.

 

Thank you all for your ideas and contributions! Hopefully together we can make this system better for everyone involved and give it a facelift if desperately needs.

 

Additionally, there will be no arguing in this thread. This is a thread where we work together to make something better, not fight each other.

[hazelmouse]

I don't have a comprehensive view on how I'd introduce IPC medical, but there's a few key points I'd like to see addressed. 

• IPCs shouldn't be immortal. Somehow, there should be a way for a positronic brain to be beyond repair, or even destroyed once it's out of the frame. I legitimately enjoy being able to roleplay with people as a cube, but death for IPCs is badly trivialised when they're the only race in the game that can invariably be carted to the workshop and come back out as good as new as if it never happened.
• IPCs should have more hazards to worry about. As things stand, they don't care about radiation, they don't care about anything that causes pain, and there aren't any ship events that specifically target them. They have to worry so little about anything that it feels trivialising to play. Radiation damaging their eyes is a fun idea I'd like to see implemented, and I'd love to see others like that to keep them on their toes.

[Jaeger Brothers]

1, Well, One Thing I'd like to see added is a Notification for certain Damage threshholds just so an IPC knows how they're doing midfight giving them an Incentive to retreat because now you have to either wait three seconds or click on yourself to see how you're doing it would maybe be a Buff or QoL.

 

2. I'd like some kind of component system that changes depending on Frame for example a G2 can't be repaired normally and has to replace external armor plating for external damage or the Xion has an Internal heatsink and so on things tied to their Abilities and maybe coolant for shells that they bleed out instead of them being air cooled like everyone else or maybe just a few Generic ones like Hydraulics , air circulation systems and so on. (These could be affected by EMPs too instead of just turning you off because it can happen where you just sit in a Corner for three Hours straight without doing anything and the game can say something like EMP DETECTED and it'd give you a good reason to pull out of the fight basically putting you on a Timer like bleeding)

Edited April 30 by Jaeger Brothers

[Rabid Animal]

I think removing nanopaste or making it only used to repair internal components is a good first step. As is, IPCs will get damaged and just b-line for their magic toothpaste tube and it completely negates the mechanics involved in actually repairing a unit. This makes them feel more like tg med than anything else really. 

 

Having a system of components that do different things when damaged (honestly kind of like it is now) could make damage feel more varied. Making it possible to damage the actual positron. Etc.

[Peppermint]

I just want bioshells, man. I've considered commissioning it previously but it's pointless without knowing if it'd get through. Either as a replacement for shells or as well as (so people can still play the terminator fantasy). Otherwise I have no opinions as play no other frame. Specifically the signalis/alien themed kind. I think ideally they would replace shells but I can see the arguments for keeping them as well. 

I don't really agree with giving IPCs more hazards though. I don't really see why that gameplay would be enjoyable and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. If anything, I'd prefer a working radiation system where you can't just stand out in it and then not affect those around you.

Edited April 30 by Peppermint

[pocheto]

I agree that having parts with significant effects like human organs that have ways to damage would be a good first step.

[Jaeger Brothers]

15 minutes ago, Rabid Animal said:

I think removing nanopaste or making it only used to repair internal components is a good first step. As is, IPCs will get damaged and just b-line for their magic toothpaste tube and it completely negates the mechanics involved in actually repairing a unit. This makes them feel more like tg med than anything else really. 

Just saying something here, No argueing just trying to broaden this a bit, Nanopaste is the only way an IPC can self-heal in a Pinch if they need it, and if we added components it could be exclusively acting as something as IPC first aid and a small nerf reducing how many are in the stack yes, but since we can't self heal every IPC is generally fucked after combat and especially the Lighter frames so nanopaste could be nerfed to act like duct tape for voidsuits or a splint, Just keeping the part alive for one or two shots until they can reach a machinist and get healed properly, You know?

[CatsinHD]

IPC organs... no but seriously, I can come up with a handful of components of a robot that could make a system in an IPC that is similar to an organic's organ system, that could lead to "symptoms" and the diagnosis process that medical gets. This, I think, is the main point I'd like to see at a minimum.

Another point is specializing frames a little further. Industrial frames get welding protection, ZH frame gets integrated scanner or something similar, etc. I don't really think the frames should be nerfed in that more hazards effect them; the point of an IPC is to better adapted for hazardous environments (for some frames at least). The except is maybe Shells.

On nanopaste: Remember that nanopaste is used for far more than just IPC repair. I would much rather it just isn't changed because: It is one of very few ways for IPC repair when a machinist is missing, it is essentially the only form of IPC first aid, medical relies on it for mechanical organ repair when a machinist is missing. That last point is huge, btw. If a machinist is gone, and a mechanical organ is damaged, without nanopaste that character is fucked. Just something to remember.

IPCs should be DIFFERENT to repair, not harder or easier (when compared to organics rn they're easier). Part of the appeal of an IPC is the ability for a company to essentially repair them to good as new as long as the Posi is fine (and they have the money). I don't feel we need to add in an aspect of "you can't just come back good as new" when that's part of the value. The obstacle is money, which is something that needs to be remembered in RP.

[Boggle08]

As a resident industrial enjoyer, I think they already are in a good spot in terms of balance and durability. Which is to say, they really cannot afford to be crippled by debuffs from new components, or additional maintenance requirements that would hurt their survivability. Industrials at low health already get punished hard for refusing to prioritize healing or avoidance, because if you get caught out on low health, there is no way you can run away from the fight, and you are too heavy and slow for anyone to pull you out of a bad situation. Hell, even if you aren't playing an industrial as a murder bot, you are bound to take constant chip damage and glancing hits from the environment/badguys. They can remain banned from security for all I care, I prefer seeing industrials in roles they were made to do. Like Bulwarks.

The one thing I wouldn't mind to see, both for industrials and all other frames, are more time-sensitive injuries. Right now, IPC's effectively live in a stasis bed that's always on. If they get injured, they can waddle away somewhere and bide their time until they can get paste or a machinist. It's why mining on initial release was so industrial heavy, because anything organic kept bleeding the fuck out before they could get help. The time sensitivity should of course depend on the injury, and like organic injuries, the IPC should be able to do some kind of self care to mitigate or slow the effects of the injury until they get help. 

Lastly, I think it's annoying to see 80% of security IPC's being shells. They can still be selectable in sec, but I'd like to see more mechanics that address the implications of attempting to put what is essentially a luxury Rolls-Royce into the same role as a toyota hilux technical. Make them more expensive to repair. Make the synthskin an optional step to repair, so as the code red wears on, the shells look more ragged and terminator-like. Make their optics and sensory inputs more sensitive, idk, just something so it feels like you aren't just playing human+ with less sprinting endurance.

[Bejewledpot]

What i'd like to see is a components based medical system. To explain, a mechanical limb is made up of all kinds of stuff. Servos, struts, bearings. We can throw all kinds of jargon around to describe the kinda things that are in there. What I'd love to see, is the plating, mechanical parts, manipulators, so on all being able to be removed and repaired, or outright replaced with new ones.
For example. someone gets shot in the hand with a pistol. You'd have to remove say, a plating component and a manipulator component, repair them, and put them back. You get shot in the arm with a shotgun, really mangling it. You have to completely strip it of parts, and weld the frame back together. Then fix any of the structural components, then the minor components like manipulators, then the plating, and install it back on.

[Sparky_hotdog]

To echo the general sentiments of this thread, components and some form of blood analogue (be it coolant or oil) would go a long way. I do think that compared to organic organs, there should be some differences with IPC components: Where (almost) all the organs we have basically serve to keep the brain alive, it would be interesting if IPCs had more auxiliary components that, when damaged, cause them to lose other functionality (Such as their self-diagnostics, requiring them to manually inspect themselves to judge how badly they are hurt, or some sort of memory system, prompting them in chat periodically that they've forgotten the last X minutes (just spit balling)). I'd also probably like to see a lot of the current things that drain battery, like stun damage and ions, instead cause components to stop working temporarily, or to behave weirdly, as dealing with those issues would be more interesting than just plugging the IPC in to charge.

On the note of self diagnostics, I do think they should have some messages in chat that tell them they're in trouble, especially given that self-preservation is a major driving factor for IPCs. Unlike organics this doesn't need to result in pain and falling over, but a "Warning: right arm highly damaged" would be nice.

Nanopaste should really remain, but as a first aid tool akin to bandages (able to stop coolant/oil leaks, but not repair internal damage). Otherwise they become even more susceptible than Vaurca to a single bullet wound killing them from fluid loss.

As suggested by CatsinHD, more frame differentiation would also be cool: Industrials should be more resilient, Shells & Bishops (and probably ZHs) should be fragile, and Baselines, being the standard, should be the simplest to repair. I do also think IPCs could be the place for more ghetto repairs - Sure, if you have the time and/or money, you can get fixed to pristine condition, but in a pinch receiving mismatching components (and that being visible) sounds cool to me too.

[Rabid Animal]

46 minutes ago, Jaeger Brothers said:

Nanopaste is the only way an IPC can self-heal in a Pinch if they need it,

Nah I get that and all, but I guess the question is more /should/ they be able to self heal? It's just extremely powerful as it is currently. An IPC getting shot 8 times just walks away from it, and rubs paste all over themselves to walk back in and get shot 8 more times. They already have no pain, I don't know why they need the additional buff of being able to "first aid" themselves. 

Remove nanopaste might have been too harsh of a way to phrase it, I know it's used for other stuff. I just think it should ONLY be used for that other stuff and then you know; make repairs more involved. Incentivise robots to take self preservation more seriously, because you aren't just gonna walk away from it - which seems to be the point of this thread.

[ben10083]

1 hour ago, Rabid Animal said:

Nah I get that and all, but I guess the question is more /should/ they be able to self heal? It's just extremely powerful as it is currently. An IPC getting shot 8 times just walks away from it, and rubs paste all over themselves to walk back in and get shot 8 more times. They already have no pain, I don't know why they need the additional buff of being able to "first aid" themselves. 

Remove nanopaste might have been too harsh of a way to phrase it, I know it's used for other stuff. I just think it should ONLY be used for that other stuff and then you know; make repairs more involved. Incentivise robots to take self preservation more seriously, because you aren't just gonna walk away from it - which seems to be the point of this thread.

Every other species self heals on its own, and can enhance it with chemicals, IPCs cannot. Either use nanopaste, or spend 10-20 minutes slowly opening each panel and repairing the damage.

[Rabid Animal]

30 minutes ago, ben10083 said:

Every other species self heals on its own, and can enhance it with chemicals, IPCs cannot. Either use nanopaste, or spend 10-20 minutes slowly opening each panel and repairing the damage.

That's the cost for having no pain and suffering damage that is relatively meaningless?

Anyways I'm not here to debate anything, that was just my suggestion, it's not worth arguing over.

[Comet Blaze]

I believe IPCs should retain their binary dead-alive nature as I feel that is their defining characteristic as machines whose components are largely independent between themselves. IPCs should work until they don't, with things like "bleeding out" or going crit being, in my opinion, best avoided.

My ideal vision for IPCs is something that is hard kill but easy to disable, and I believe the way to achieve this is with components which, although not "vital", lead to a series of debuffs should they be damaged/broken. Things like actuators/hydraulics that render the limb completely useless if destroyed or a cooling tank that makes it so IPCs are constantly on the verge of overheating, making them unable to sprint, maybe even a gyroscope that would cause them to frequently stumble if damaged, there's really no end to the amount of things we could add.

For treatment, we could use a system similar to organs where the components "scar" if they're damaged enough and take increased damage, making it useful for a quick patch job during emergencies, but need to be replaced when the dust settles.

[Faye <3]

I think removing nanopaste would be a bad idea, as I've played many rounds without a machinist, got a bum leg, and been effectively useless as no one could locate nanopaste, and a machinist wasn't around. I think it taking longer to apply would be fine, if the combat thing is a concern. As it stands, NanoPaste is the only way to fix yourself sans asking an engineer to ghetto-weld you, which doesn't really work. 

I think a components based system sounds like the most fun. Above all, it's /extremely/ hard to tell how intact you are as an IPC. When I played security shells a lot, it really felt like I was fine until I wasn't, and dying was usually extremely abrupt and a little jarring. Chat-warnings and things going wrong before you die would be extremely helpful, and probably allow IPC players to make more informed decisions as to their character's behavior in regards to self preservation. Memory leaks, stumbling, leaking fluids, etc would all be good.

[Triogenix]

I will preface this by saying I do not play IPCs, and this comes from an external perspective.

I think the fundamental issue when it comes to IPCs and their medical system is that, unlike every other race, there is no easy way of going "oh I damaged the IPC." What I mean is like, if I shoot any other species, something will happen that tells me, the player interacting with them, "Oh, I damaged them." This is things like bleeding, slower movement, chat messages about gasping and them being in pain, etc. IPCs have none of this, all that changes is maybe some sprite stuff(Unless something like a leg is just fully broken, in which case there is some specific stuff). This makes IPCs feel incredibly bullet spongey from an outside perspective, and IMO, unfun to interact with in a medical sense.

 

I think the easiest fix for this is a components/organ style system, in addition to things like chat messages. Having components/organs which can break, and when they break give specific chat messages like "X's servo's grind together" goes a long way to fix this. However, given that IPCs do not feel pain, and this is not something I want to change, I think these components/organs need to be able to "break" far easier than their organic counterparts.

Edited April 30 by Triogenix

[Sniblet]

I invented some IPC organs on a different thread that was also complaining about IPC toughness.

Keep in mind that making IPCs easier to critically injure does increase the need for machinists, but by increasing the need for machinists you also (slightly) increase the rate at which people play machinist. IPC repairs are already the only thing that anyone misses when the machinist is absent, though.

So this is unfortunately tied to the other perennial issue with machinist having few mechanics worth doing, which is tied to scientist having no mechanics worth doing.

Weird workaround to machinist shortages: drones are allowed to repair only corporate owned, non-luxury (bishop/shell; too complex, and companies want human discretion to say “nah too expensive” and just scrap em), crew IPCs. They get a mini tag scanner that only prints “you can fix this” or “do not touch this,” and mechanically unlocks drone interaction with the frame for a bit if it’s OK. They cannot replace internals, but can patch them and leave scars or whatever. They don’t have nanopaste.

And, perhaps extend scarring to external damage for IPCs. You can’t just open up an arm that was almost blown off and weld the pieces back together. Every part except the brain is replaceable and should often be replaced, especially when they don’t need it and the warranty has literally just expired.

Edited May 2 by Sniblet

[Lly2]

I think that if IPCs receive a brain-med equivalent, a lot of care should be given to make sure they're not just completely analogous to organics. Having a series of organs that are functionally just eyes, lungs, et cetera, would be a missed opportunity to make up new things that can differentiate robots in an interesting way. Giving IPCs blood in the form of coolant and having them die when it runs out feels like a miss compared to having it interact with IPC-specific mechanics in a more interesting way, and it'd probably be very frustrating given how few machinists exist. In the same vein, it definitely needs to be possible for a positronic to be destroyed somehow, but I'd hate to see it happen through passive degradation like with a human brain.

Personally, I'd like to see IPCs nerfed via a chassis and internals that are much easier to damage than currently, but a posibrain that isn't reliant on these to stay alive. The posibrain should be extremely fragile without the chassis, but I don't think its survival should be intrinsically linked to the health of the chassis. Carrying a brain around is fun, but it being invulnerable is an issue.

One random thing that I'd enjoy as a purely flavour addition: with shells being extremely expensive, it's funny to me that shells can be made perfect again with a quick, essentially free repair. Scarring by way of irreparable synthskin to leave them with an exposed metal chassis after injuries would be cool.

Edited May 2 by Lly2

[Desven]

I don’t want to hijack this thread but… I’m hijacking this thread a bit.

 I’ve discussed internally that I want Vaurcae to have a “mixed” medical system; it would need to be mixed in solutions (i.e., both medical and the machinist could repair you) instead of mixed in punishing players (you need to go to two doctors to fully heal). Mainly because healing as a Vaurca is already a pain in the ass as it stands. In my original idea, a Vaurcae could maybe repair tissue damage with a welder as well, just to show that Vaurcae are heavily augmented and their flesh is sometimes half mechanical.

I favor IPCs getting organs and being “modular” and I just implore you to consider Vaurcae if this is implemented. Vaurcae also have some prosthetics they very clearly need to function, especially in human space. But even if another solution is favored for IPCs, I hope you also consider how Vaurcae can benefit from it. Vaurcae are the closest we have to full body prosthetics and I would like to favor that more in game.

That is all, thank you.