Losing interest.

[Frances]

These are some good example. These all appear to be instances of draconian measures being taken (both ICly and OOCly) out of "fear of the baddie". To which I'd say, deal with the baddie once they come up. Don't over-penalize other players because of it. (Like, seriously. If people can't behave themselves in ERT, give out ERT bans. It's not bad enough that we should gimp ERT completely.)

[Jboy2000000]

I have to agree with Tain, the admins are one of the other reasons Ive also come to enjoy Aurora a bit less, and the reason why I didn't mention should speak more than the actual reasons.

The reason I didn't mention it before is because I am scared to speak about the admins, Im scared to speak to the admins, Im sacred to speak around the admins, I don't want to say something any where they might see it and make them angry. I don't enhoy Aurora as much, but I still want to play the game. I sometimes get the nerves to comment of something the admins have already talked about, but I almost never post anything if it goes against anyone's standing, because I don't want to get banned or something. I was scared to talk to Dea after I was told Alisa couldn't be a head of staff, I didn't even want to message her more than once because I didn't want my whitelist taken away, I have a note on my record because I didn't want to keep talking to the admin who I was ahelping, I just wanted to stop talking as soon as possible so I didn't accidentally get myself a ban or something.

I know that middle text there seems a jumbled mess, but thats because Ive already written this four other times, but I kept deleting it and doing something else because Im still afraid talking about this may get me punished for something.

[Tainavaa]

Great, now let's get a memorandum drafted and let me play. PLEASE.

[Frances]

Great, now let's get a memorandum drafted and let me play. PLEASE.

I believe we need more than that. I believe communication needs to be established with the staff, and everyone needs to explain clearly what they're doing, what they want, how they hope for things to be run, etc. And I would honestly prefer if the staff didn't hold back, too. Internally (when I was on staff), I have seen people express frustrations against others, and instead of actually communicating this frustration (in an appropriate manner conductive to dialogue, obv.), too often, these feelings were left bottled up, and simply resulted in people's cases being dismissed instead of staff and players actually meeting to share and understand differing viewpoints on an issue.

And if staff believes players are ridiculous or misguided in their clamors, then I would much rather these players be answered to honestly than be brushed off.

[Flamingo]

I actually agree with you, player of IAM (I'm sorry I already forgot your username, I'm in the posting screen). I feel like a lot of things are constricted, both IC and OOC, when they really have no reason to be. It just kills part of the fun of the game for me. I can't learn genetics without committing a crime (and as such I always do it as a new character and in dead hour, so I can dick around and learn, though I fear being bwoink'd for self-antag, even though I plan to harm no one unless attacked).

As for the OOC complaints, I also agree. I don't even antag anymore for fear of getting bwoink'd. One time I was an antag and I spent a round setting up explosives in (unused) sections of the station, all with different trigger IDs, so I could threaten the station to get what I wanted. Bwoink'd before I finished and was too fearful I'd fuck up so I just let the round end without doing anything. It wasn't necessarily the admin's fault for wanting to ask about it, but the way they handled the situation isn't what I'd call reassuring. At least I bought a balloon, but still. It was basically extended because I was afraid of getting banned because I was using explosives. They were crude, would likely do minimal damage (but WOULD vent the areas they were in), and were in areas completely devoid of players.

There's also the part where practically every time I play nuke it ends poorly (when I'm the op. I still LOVE the gamemode itself).

I also agree with Frances, I'd like to see staff be more transparent with themselves and us. A frustrated staff member is going to be biased (whether they admit it or not) against certain players. Better to talk about it like adults than hide it.

[Guest]

Wow, this thread blew up.

What was it you folks all wanted me to answer, again?

[Frances]

I also really wish for, like, an actual class for staff to take on how to talk to people. I remember one of the very first things I was told when I became a mod was to be firm with users you were dealing with, so they wouldn't get the idea to bullshit you. And while I think the "authoritative" approach has its uses (mostly when you already know someone is bullshitting), it shouldn't be the default stance. I was guilty of it, and pretty much everyone else was guilty of it to a degree.

I've played and gotten boinked on several alts (I assume people just leave me be on this ckey because they trust me), and I have to say, being contacted by staff is pretty scary, and generally not a fun experience. Especially when you're not doing anything wrong, staff tries to figure out what you're doing, and after justifying yourself you're simply left with a "don't do anything bad though, mmkay?" It's intimidating, and I want staff to feel like people I can play the game with and have fun with, not like people who constantly look down upon me. And I'm pretty sure it's not any staffmember's intent, but it's being done unconsciously in a lot of cases.

If someone's being an asshole, go yell at them, yes. But if you don't feel like you can be friendly to a complete stranger on any given day, don't take the case, leave it to someone else.

[SgtSammac]

Ohhey, also I am sorry I went a bit off topic.

Delta, I've never really properly spoken to you and for that I apologise, I tend to rub off on the people the wrong way. But you're a good person, if you leave? Best of luck I wish you the best. If you stay? Yay, perhaps I shall get to know you better.

[Guest]

Let me ask you two question. Feel free to be honest.

What do you want? What do you expect?

 

Okay.

What do I want? I want to be able to play how I want (within both the IC rules and OOC rules, as others have observed me do many many many times before and I still get fucking BITCHED at by dick-hat bureaucrats) without having some fucking ghost haunt me in LOOC and attempt to make me look and feel like a piece of shit for a hard decision that I made in the best interest of the fucking round.

I don't wanna have to fucking give up and submit every single fucking time I get a complaint put up against me because Dickins McHoP decided to stroll up in their shuttle to try to "establish diplomacy" with a very clearly armed and murderous antagonist, and I respond by assassinating them to scare the shit out of the crew and tell them I mean fucking bsns. But I do it anyway because I want the fucking drama to stop.

I fucking abhor heads of staff/IAA players that do nothing but fucking target and attack me for things I'm not even in control of. I do not want assholes for co-workers. I expect every head of staff player to know how to communicate issues with other heads in a polite, civil and non-fucking-IRRITATING way.

And there's nothing you can do about the "Dicks in IC" because, "Oh, IC issue" is the answer you're gonna get from the staff. And clearly everyone else says here in this thread that shit like that is not worth an incident report over, so apparently I can do absolutely fucking nothing but put up with that shit anyway? I would LOVE to break someone's knees in for repeated slander, harassment and undermining standard operation of command as well as my department. But, oh dear, that dickhat will immediately spam his F1 button and call grief/gank/whatthefuckever.

And then there's the fucking forums.

You know what I want? I want people to stop fucking shitposting, peanut gallerying and concern trolling. I want people to think for more than five, maybe six minutes before posting a final draft on their say regarding a subject.

I want people to stop dressing up extremely minor issues that happened in-game that you will forget about in a week, if not a few days, and then making it a huge freaking deal about it. Like, holy fuck, it is one round out of how many you will play here and you care this much? Your tears are fucking delicious.

I want certain people in this community to fucking grow up. You have absolutely no idea how much I detest it when I see their name on 'who' and they drop in as a head of staff or any other department where they can fucking bug me for no reason even if I haven't interacted with them once during the course of the entire round.

I am burnt out because people are trying to take a stray flame to my wick. And this is the kind of shit I don't expect nor need to put up with.

[Tainavaa]

Would you say that maybe you want to...

 

JUST FUCKING PLAY?

[Guest]

YES.

GOD, YES.

I would love to play this game.

But apparently, there are times where I cannot, because everyone else says so.

And this frustrates me.

[Tainavaa]

Thank you, Delta. I rest my case.

[Casperf1]

Even though this is 1138's post saying that he may or may not be leaving (I personally really hope it's the latter, I love you) it raises important issues that have been brought up a lot, and that I've mainly been neutral on, until now.

 

I believe communication needs to be established with the staff, and everyone needs to explain clearly what they're doing, what they want, how they hope for things to be run, etc. And I would honestly prefer if the staff didn't hold back, too.

And if staff believes players are ridiculous or misguided in their clamors, then I would much rather these players be answered to honestly than be brushed off.

 

I appreciate and agree with this point, and definitely think it's something not too late to work on, as a community.

Okay. So. Bare with me here, because I am not the best at phrasing or at forum posts or at talking in general, but...

Back when ye old Aurora was established, it was intended that the Staff were subject to the player's whim, and were there to 'serve' the player-base. After all, there can't really be staff without a community. I will agree with others that over time, this has become less and less the case, and that some arbitrary limitations have been imposed at the expenditure of fun, for example: getting bugged by Security for moving tables and the-like may be realistic, sure, but it certainly is not fun (with a few exceptions, of course).

I don't think Staff can come up with solutions to these problems that are being identified alone. I think that more suggestions are needed like the one Frances has made here. We have a whole Suggestions and Ideas board that we rarely present ideas and suggestions to better the community on. We seem more content to talk about and establish issues in a whole slew of threads and forum posts, which is fair enough (healthy discussion and all that) and then let them die down, unresolved. From what I see, these (numerous) issues are being called out and agreed upon, but not that many suggestions are being put forth by us, the community, in an effort help challenge and change these issues.

A few of you guys are talking about not "Being able to play the game". What do you mean by this? What would you suggest we as staff can change to make sure you can just play and have fun?

Also-also, in an effort to adhere to Franc's suggestion, I'm more than willing to put the fact out there that you can approach staff, and by extension, myself to talk to. I've seen a few people mention that they find staff intimidating, or find staff uncomfortable to talk to, which is fair enough. But I like to think that most of us are not that mean to talk to. So, if anybody does have any issues or suggestions or just fancies a chat, you're free to PM me here, on the Pager or Skype me at: Dion5227

[Frances]

But I like to think that most of us are not that mean to talk to.

And I feel the need to stress that hugely. Every single person I have met on the staff has been there because they love the game, and want to make the community better. They very rarely hate any particular users (and when they do, it's usually because these users are being dicks OOCly, not because of the way they play), and really, what concerns them is the user experience, not upholding the rules.

It seems what we have is mostly a communication and ideological problem. Soooo, let's work on that.

[Casperf1]

But I like to think that most of us are not that mean to talk to.

And I feel the need to stress that hugely. Every single person I have met on the staff has been there because they love the game, and want to make the community better. They very rarely hate any particular users (and when they do, it's usually because these users are being dicks OOCly, not because of the way they play), and really, what concerns them is the user experience, not upholding the rules.

It seems what we have is mostly a communication and ideological problem. Soooo, let's work on that.

 

Yep! But, how do we work on that? I don't personally believe that it's a result of our rules, since personally, I think that they are quite open for interpretation and can be applied on a case-by-case basis, but I digress.

Beyond trying to get the community to reach out to staff more, what else can we do?

Also, I'd like to stress that the community should not and does not need to feel like they're stepping over land-mines with these issues. We as staff cannot do anything without knowing what the community are thinking. Whether that's agreeing with some particular aspects, that we can reinforce, by extension, or disagreeing with others, which we can begin to modify and change to suit community-wants. I think we can only enforce our own judgement as best as we can, but it is not always for the better.

[Tainavaa]

I've elaborated on my issues and what how I think it could be resolved. I have one suggestion. Let the players play the game. Like. Let me play. I gave you some examples, and it's not too late to just LET ME TAKE THE FUCKING HARDSUIT. LIKE. WHY DOES IT MATTER THAT MUCH TO YOU. IT MATTERS TO ME BECAUSE MUH ROLEPLAY. LIKE. COME ON. REALLY? POWERGAMING?

 

The caps are not me legitimately being angry, I thought it was funny, and I still do so I choose to keep it.

 

We rarely have suggestions to better the community, I think, because there are no suggestions to worsen the community. These limitations aren't brought on through a suggestion thread. My limit to take a medical hardsuit wasn't brought upon through a suggestion thread, and not allowing people to decorate their workspace was NEVER disallowed through SOP OR station directives or anything so I don't know why people even bother to care IC. It's completely allowed IC. They just kind of happened through other threads or through someone bitching hard enough and it just kind of stuck.

Is it that difficult, and does it take that much work, to just let players play? And cherrypick the obvious shitters, or players that continuously cause problems?

Maybe the question isn't what SHOULD we do, but what SHOULDN'T we do.

I think the mentality here is reminiscent of regulations in the Army. The army has general regulations that can not be taken away from on a post-by-post basis but can be ADDED to. And so far, what I'm seeing is "What can we ADD?" not "What should we take away?" You've already added to the core structure, why can't you take it away now?

[Frances]

I definitely think that staff should make an effort to minimize OOC intervention. This is kind of ironic because I'm bashing myself for my own mistake, but in the case of the hardsuit, there was little to no reason why the issue couldn't be debated among command, ICly. (Besides maybe saying a traitor would expect to find hardsuits in EVA? I seriously can't imagine a situation where an antag would be completely boned simply because a department relocated their hardsuits.)

Generally, I would like people to keep in mind they should attempt to let players do their own thing as much as possible. A player shouldn't have their actions be blocked without a good reason, and these reasons should always be explained to them in a manner that's clear and on-point.

I sadly can't tell you about specific instances, as I haven't had many run-ins with staff, and I'm not on staff anymore so I can't see how ahelps and issues are handled, but I trust some other players should be able to explain their gripes in a comprehensible manner.

[Jboy2000000]

I think the general thing is, the thing thats talked about the most in this thread, is that people are not enjoying the game as much, because the admins are making it hard for the them to play the game.

Remember a while back when Tain made a staff complaint because she was told to put a hardsuit away? I looked at the thread, I hesitently commented on the thread, saying I agreed we should be able to bring the hardsuits outside EVA, but the only thing I really saw when reading through it was basically an answer of "No, because we say you can't. No." And Ive never seen anyone bring a hardsuit to medical ever again, I used to be someone who did that, and I never wanted to do it again after that because I didn't want a thread like that to be about me. Even if thats not what they intended, they freightened me into following a rule thats not really a rule anywhere, except on their lips.

Not only that, but when do you normally hear "That staff aren't bad" or, "The staff are nice and freindly?" You rarely ever hear it from someone who isn't staff themselves. Even if they don't say it, or even don't think it, no one says the staff are nice to players. You never go into the staff complaints and see someone second guessing a complaint because their experiances with an admin has been plesent. Ive never been happy to hear the ahelp bwoink, even when I made the ahelp myself, simply because no matter what, it always feels like the person on the other end is always angry for some reason.

I just think the staff need to calm down a bit. Yes, you're an admin, yes you can ban and mute people for being rude, dumb or breaking the rules, yes it is a serious position, but really, you don't need to be so serious about it. I don't know how else to say it, or what to add, but look at this, look at this thread where people say the admins are making the game not fun, there are way more complaints about the admins then there are people talking about "the community."

[Tainavaa]

Thank you, Jboy.

And I want to reiterate this, and I want to make this hammered into everyone's heads because I'm just as pissed as Delta, and have been for a long time.

You want to know what we should do? I'll tell you what we should do. We should

 

LET. THE PLAYERS. PLAY.

 

That's it. Simple. Chill the fuck out and let us play.

[Frances]

I think the general thing is, the thing thats talked about the most in this thread, is that people are not enjoying the game as much, because the admins are making it hard for the them to play the game.

I respectfully disagree. Player-staff relations might not be ideal, but the core of the problem remains that everyone is stressing way much about minor things. It's not just the staff who are responsible for that, and most of the (imo) undue complaints are made by regular players.

 

Not only that, but when do you normally hear "That staff aren't bad" or, "The staff are nice and freindly?" You rarely ever hear it from someone who isn't staff themselves.

And that again can be attributed to poor communication. The reason why staff are the ones claiming the rest of the staff is cool is because they've had the most opportunities to interact with staff in all sorts of contexts, and realize that that everyone there is just regular ladies and gents.

And I've seen it myself; having been on both sides of that, I can confirm that no one on staff is a terrible, power-hungry shitter. They want to help, but if people are scared of them or feel uneasy around them, it's a sign that they're not getting their message across properly.

[Tainavaa]

If the issue is people making complaints over minor issues, then why not say "It's fine because X and Y. Deal with it."? If you're an administrator, it's your duty to help them understand why it's fine but if you've explained in a clear and concise, objective-as-possible manner then it's out of your hands as to whether they understand it or decide it's fine. Otherwise there's nothing else for you to do as an administrator or moderator. If they want to bitch more, shut them up. If they want to leave, so be it. If it's half as minor to them as it is to you as a mod/min, then they'll forget about it and move on. Maybe they'll even come to an understanding later on. But that isn't your concern. You're a mod/min.

Basically, to sum it up, behave and act like a mod/min. Nothing more.

Another edit. I want to emphasize concise, clear, and objective when explaining things. No emotions, no opinions. Objectivity is key when communicating intellectually.

[Jboy2000000]

And I've seen it myself; having been on both sides of that, I can confirm that no one on staff is a terrible, power-hungry shitter. They want to help, but if people are scared of them or feel uneasy around them, it's a sign that they're not getting their message across properly.

If people are scared and uneasy around the admins, its because they've seen people who are already scared and uneasy around the admins, because of their interactions. If you say its only because admins get to talk to other admins, and thats why they're some of the only people to speak good of admins, why don't admins try to outreach more? Try to seem more human to people, so that people can be more easy around them. If people are uneasy to go admins, maybe the admins should go to the players, not person to person, but just something so that whenever people need to go to admins, or when admins go to them with a problem, they see the ladies and gents they are, not the scary admins who they think they may be.

[Frances]

If the issue is people making complaints over minor issues, then why not say "It's fine because X and Y. Deal with it."?

Except the problem is on another side staff are being told to stop telling people to deal with things "just cause". And sometimes there's no helping it - in the case of the complaints against Sue, an agreement could not be reached after 25 pages of threads, at which point the administration cut in and said "this is our consensus, the rationale has already been explained, if you still can't understand it we don't know what to say to you anymore".

Yes, you can ignore these complaints, you can brush them off, perhaps the staff will side with you and you won't be punished at all, but in the end, you're still getting bitched at unfairly and that's terribly unfun. I've seen lynch mobs form against players (recently Sue, but there have been others), and it's not an experience that can be solved with staff alone.

Staff aren't all-powerful. They can't control users, tell them what to do in all instances, and direct their thoughts. This is a problem for the community as a whole to solve.

[Casperf1]

 

LET. THE PLAYERS. PLAY.

 

That's it. Simple. Chill the fuck out and let us play.

 

Hi, Tainavaa.

H'okay, so. I think this is too broad a spectrum and doesn't particularly isolate or provide us with a great deal of constructive feedback that we can read over and implement.

Saying let us play is fine and all but: Bombing escape, arrivals and the bridge simultaneously could be classified as playing. Harmbattoning players for no reason could constitute playing. Stealing from SSD for the funnies could also be classified as playing.

"let us play" as a suggestion is considerably more difficult for us as staff to decipher and apply our own mentality to, especially dependant on the various situation(s) of players playing, or in case-by-case basis'.

As an example: Say we have two characters, Donald and Ronald, the only Engineers. Donald and Ronald decide that they are going to spend their round (E)RP'ing in a corner, as opposed to setting up the Engine. There is no Security, Command or otherwise any personnel available to reprimand these two for Neglect of Duty. Or let's assume that there is a single Officer; they do not have access to arrest these two. Or even in the event that they did, Donald and Ronald decide to weld the officer into a locker and take their new-found love to the station exterior, in a Romeo&Juliet-esque state of defiance. Perhaps too specific, but still. It could be said that these players are just trying to play the game. But at the same time, they are causing issues for the rest of the characters on-shift in a massive IC way, effectively halting their game OOC'ly. However, wouldn't you still say that these two people are playing, despite basically breaking the round for others?

I appreciate what you're trying to say, and I think that it's a helpful start. But, I personally think it is way too much of a broad point and really does not go towards giving us much to go on, simply put: There are too many situations and variables to summarise up in such a simple point/request.

[Eliot Clef]

I think the general thing is, the thing thats talked about the most in this thread, is that people are not enjoying the game as much, because the admins are making it hard for the them to play the game.

 

My personal issues haven't been with staff, but with asinine "common sense" policies that get universal traction in-game because of random baldies who show up and give themselves Hulk/TK and go on a rampage. I'm not even sure what prompted the, "Get paperwork to rearrange some tables." requirements.

Bear in mind that I'm also somebody who strongly opposes denying the Head of Staff whitelists to non-humans/skrell, and think you can make decent excuses for changeling IPCs. I lean very heavily on the side of making the lore adapt to the game, than the game adapt to the lore.