Xanderdox - Head of Security

[Jamini]

BYOND Key:Jamini (This is your Byond Login/Ckey)

Player Byond Key: Xanderdox (This is the Byond Login/Ckey of the player you are complaining)

Staff involved:Ahelped to no response (This is if the complaint was ahelped and if it was handled by a staff member)

Reason for complaint: RPing a "malfunctioning loyalty implant", failure to respond to roundtype. (State your reason for your complaint)

Approximate Date/Time: 10:01PM EST

This was during a stealthmalf round.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z0xgmdimhgv1orp/Runaway.htm?dl=0

Essentially Xander, as head of security, opted to evacuate instead of make even the slightest attempt to to resist an AI in mode Delta (Which still, in malf, has explicit orders from central command to disable it) when there was upwards of 400 seconds on the timer.

The crew compliment was extremely full, and there were at least two non-permaed engineers, several medics, and a multitude of officers and other staff available to respond to the threat.

First, the issue of a malfunctioning loyalty implant. Why the hell would such a thing be acceptable at all in a non-antagonist head of security? They might as well not exist.

How exactly is this good RP? Lorewise, the station (your livelihood, as well as the ONLY WAY BACK TO ODIN) is gone if the station goes boom. You will not get rescued, and frankly that AI already showed that is was going to attempt to kill staff (and was doing so on the outpost up until it blew up the station.) I, personally, do not believe this is at all good command /or/ security play on Xander's part. He chose to run from a situation where he by all rights should have stood the line, ultimately made the round worse for others around him.

Edit:

I will also add, he had the following resources at his disposal.

-At least one active engineer, and the corpse of the CE with all equipment

-Two paramedics, in hardsuits, fully kitted out

-Multiple lethals-armed officers

-Multiple other staff around the central ring.

-A full medbay of support staff

Edited June 8, 2015 by Guest

[Baka]

Xanderdox was actually approved by Doomberg Tablespoon, (with feedback from Tuiee, and myself) to allow to roleplay a malfunctioning loyalty implant, after an ahelp he gave us.

EDIT: FIXED SOMETHING.

[Jamini]

Xanderdox was actually approved by Doomberg, (with feedback from Tuiee, and myself) to allow to roleplay a malfunctioning loyalty implant, after an ahelp he gave us.

 

So that justifies allowing him to permit his workplace to be utterly destroyed? That gives him permission to Completely forgoe his role as Head of security when he had the entire station in his favort?. That justifies, essentially, allowing him to give up and denying players who want a chance to fight back to try and oppose the antagonist player?

This sort of bahavior is endemic to every single one of Xander's characters. He does not, as command staff, lead. He doesn't rally the crew or do anyt hing but outright raun away on every single one of his characters that Ilve seen. Why? Why should this be permitted?

Saving your own skin is good, but command staff owe it to the server as part of their primary role to organize and oppose antagonist action. That does not neccesarily mean going out to the fron and gunning things down, but taking every excuse he can to cut and run on all of his command characters is disgusting. These are people who have spent at minimum five years, and sometimes upwards of a decade working for the company. Upright giving up all of it for, essentially, nothing.

[Guest]

I have too many times, led the front as my Captain into the AI core and been lethalled down by lasers and androids. I have ran towards Nuke Ops as Emma Godswood with my Security Team and shot them down, I have led survivors away from Alien Hunters into the telescience lab, and sealed them behind blastdoors just as the Queen and her court broke in having neutralized my Gygax security guard and proceeded to cut my head off, but my crew were safe.

Miaze Sinnoh is weary of AIs of all kinds, be it corebased or Android. I apologize, if when someone not trained in any sort of technology, that is no longer loyalty implanted, hears the station is going to be nuked by the AI, decides to haul ass off the station.

I dont care if you're paying 100 million fucking credits, no person in their right mind would stay on the station while the Nuke is counting down if they had an escape route, not ONE.

There has been an attack on my characters lately and I don't know where it comes from, you expect command characters to be generally good people, who lead from the front. NO. I will /NOT/, I repeat NOT, make my characters to yours, or anyone but the administration's ideals.

My characters have human traits, whether its cowardice, arrogance, greed or childishness.

And how dare you call my behavior disgusting when your claim is so unfounded, not only are there the examples I've given above, but I frequently lead Security as Niklaus. He is not a character that wishes to have any sort of conflict with antags, he is not a security-minded Captain, he does not LIKE conflict, he is physically frail and weak. However, today, cult round, I rushed to a call of three cultists engaging unarmed crew as CAPTAIN, not just any captain, but my coward, Nik. Because whether he likes it or not, the good of the company comes before his life, and he stood side-by-side his Warden and Head of Personnel as he battled cultists, before finally having to stop fighting due to injury, and instead organize a safe area in the Bridge.

This entire complaint is both baseless and insulting, and for you to make such a thing has actually ruined how I view you as a player and as a person.

If you want to see me lead the line, play more often with me, you've failed to see my characters enough obviously.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Lol are you seriously filing a complaint at someone roleplaying fear and running away rather than facing death with a suicidal abandon? I just don't understand, this goes against your arguments against security and seems really hypocritical. Why would someone remain on the station if it's about to be nuked? That's like, more abhorrent than just running away. I actually commend Xander for running away; we need more fear of death in the security department.

It sounds like you're angry that someone didn't roleplay the round as you wanted them to, and give you the fight that you wanted, because that is the only logical thing I can come up with when I see this complaint filed over fear-rp.

[Guest]

Xanderdox was actually approved by Doomberg, (with feedback from Tuiee, and myself) to allow to roleplay a malfunctioning loyalty implant, after an ahelp he gave us.

 

...Why?

You know what, I don't even care about some shitty malf round because the crew did nothing about it, and I don't care about cowards. But you seriously allowed for a Head of Security, who was not an antag, to roleplay a malfunctioning loyalty implant, despite the fact that the entire premise of a loyalty implant is that your faith to the corporation does not falter. The round type was secret rolled Malf AI, not auto-traitor. You essentially added another antagonist to the fray.

You defeat the entire purpose of a loyalty implant by allowing it to 'corrupt' randomly because why not, let's plunge the station into further chaos and completely undermine the role and responsibilities of a Head of Security and further contribute to how shitty command staff play has gotten recently.

Many of you may not realize this, but all it takes is one person with aaaaaaaaall that power and responsibility to completely spiral a round out of control and ruin it for so many people.

I'm rather disappointed with the administration decision to follow up on such a ludicrous request such as what was suggested, and I would hope this would not be repeated ever again. What was displayed was an absolute lack of foresight and an ability to weigh in the consequences to all actions, whether they be in the present or the future.

[Guest]

My loyalty implant was 'malfunctioned' to aid in corrupt corporate cop RP that was happening in the Brig, I wanted my character to be able to be physically present with some Speciest prisoners, but couldn't due to the implant, so to further the RP, I requested that it be malfunctioned. It did not make me an antagonist, it made me a player bound by all the normal rules, except forced following of regulation. Also, keep in mind that loyalty implants are not end-all, they can be damaged by strong emotional bursts and mental break downs.

[Guest]

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. The Head of Security is not supposed to be a corrupt cop. There is no reason a HoS should, (And I've seen SoundScopes remove antagginess from those with LIs before), ever be IC shitcurity. It is an inherently stupid idea and it sets an utterly horrid precedent for subordinate players and characters.

You have responsibilities as a head of staff. By playing a head of staff, when you're not even an antag to begin with, you are expected to fill the role you joined in as to the letter. I don't care if it's 'for the spirit of Roleplay', it is a major issue of suspension of disbelief and completely breaks the point of being a loyalty implanted head of staff. Captains and Commanders are implanted because they are expected to uphold Corp Regs, station directives, protocol and corporate policy and not completely ignore the fact that you're supposed to follow the very rules you're enforcing, as well.

It prevents professional hypocrisy and a complete meltdown of the chain of command as well as station operation.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

^Is this complaint tied to his decision to run away? Because there's an entirely separate staff complaint to be made over the decision to allow Xander to do a malfunctioning implant. He adminhelped and received the blessings of the administration, and he's not to be blamed for doing what he explicitly went out of his way to ask permission to do. Shift your blame upwards, and see if we can orient back to the plausibility of Xander being a bad player for allowing IC fear to override his character's duty to fight a nuclear explosive.

[Guest]

^Is this complaint tied to his decision to run away? Because there's an entirely separate staff complaint to be made over the decision to allow Xander to do a malfunctioning implant. He adminhelped and received the blessings of the administration, and he's not to be blamed for doing what he explicitly went out of his way to ask permission to do. Shift your blame upwards, and see if we can orient back to the plausibility of Xander being a bad player for allowing IC fear to override his character's duty to fight a nuclear explosive.

 

I don't actually question cowardice, whether they're a HoS or not. It's not my playstyle nor my preferred MO, but I'm not going to judge, because it happens. I would still expect Heads of Security that are less combat-capable to still be able to manage their department, however, as the job entails. They are still required to be a leader, and despite whatever the feck went on, he did not technically break the rules, save for the whole loyalty implant schiesse.

And, no, it is no one's duty to fight a nuclear explosive. I don't expect anyone to be calm or collected during this point in time. Different folks, different strokes.

[Baka]

I normally do not do this.

 

Essentially Xander, as head of security, opted to evacuate instead of make even the slightest attempt to to resist an AI in mode Delta (Which still, in malf, has explicit orders from central command to disable it) when there was upwards of 400 seconds on the timer.

 

I fail to see the issue of a head of security ordering an evacuation, as from the perception he seem to have was preserving the life of the crew, rather than gambling and risking the unknown of fighting a clandestine AI.

 

The crew compliment was extremely full, and there were at least two non-permaed engineers, several medics, and a multitude of officers and other staff available to respond to the threat.

 

Okay. So there were people that can do things.

 

First, the issue of a malfunctioning loyalty implant. Why the hell would such a thing be acceptable at all in a non-antagonist head of security? They might as well not exist. How exactly is this good RP? Lorewise, the station (your livelihood, as well as the ONLY WAY BACK TO ODIN) is gone if the station goes boom. You will not get rescued, and frankly that AI already showed that is was going to attempt to kill staff (and was doing so on the outpost up until it blew up the station.) I, personally, do not believe this is at all good command /or/ security play on Xander's part. He chose to run from a situation where he by all rights should have stood the line, ultimately made the round worse for others around him.

 

As I will repeat here, we have approved of the implant malfunctioning, because we decided it may add some bit of roleplay to the situation. You are free to make a staff complaint to contest this.

Where in the lore does it state "There's no going back" if the NSS Aurora is blown to smithereens? Because this is the first time I'm hearing this.

And finally... I don't see a problem with a HoS buckling down and showing fear for his life when it's in absolute danger. It's a physiological reaction to a stressful situation. There's a crazed AI on the station and the HoS decides to preserve his life rather than to fight something he had no idea about. The HoS was given at the time two choices, Fight or Flight. He took the second option. Can you really blame him for running away from the unknown?

[Tablespoon]

Xanderdox was actually approved by Doomberg, (with feedback from Tuiee, and myself) to allow to roleplay a malfunctioning loyalty implant, after an ahelp he gave us.

 

To clarify, I approved it with insight from the people listed above.

EDIT: Also, my input is that being loyalty implanted leaves room for what it means to be loyal. Yes, preserving NT assets factors into this, but that could also be extended to preserving the lives of the crew (which are valuable in their own way). Even with the Loyalty Implant, I think it would be justifiable to evacuate....and I'm 99% sure I've seen it down in previous rounds with no complaints.

[Jamini]

My issue is that he made absolutely no attempt, at all, to try and stop the AI.

He had 400 seconds at the start of delta to make the attempt with a huge crew manifest of capable crew. The ability to handle the situation was there, and instead of making any attempt he essentially gave up without even trying.

He could have tried to organize a resistance from a safer area. He could have made an attempt and then ordered an evac if the breach failed by 120 seconds.

There is a league of difference between leading from the front and not making any attempt at all. As head of security and the sole remaining head of staff there is very much a duty involved ICly and OOCly to act against an overt and aggressive antagonist. If you fail to do anything at all in the face of a hostile, you are directly undermining one of the head of security's primary roles.

 

I fail to see the issue of a head of security ordering an evacuation, as from the perception he seem to have was preserving the life of the crew, rather than gambling and risking the unknown of fighting a clandestine AI.

 

command_alert("Hostile runtimes detected in all station systems, please deactivate your AI to prevent possible damage to its morality core.", "Anomaly Alert")

set_security_level("delta")

 

The point. Of delta. In malfunction. Is to pit the crew against the AI. When the AI calls Delta, the crew are obligated to respond.

His response in this instance is akin to having nukeops threaten to blow up the station if you don't hand over the keys and complying with said demand when you have a full security manifest and ERT on-site.

[Tainavaa]

I disagree entirely on that equivalence. Because operators have an ulterior motive and will profit from an evacuated station. The AI will not. That AI is willing to kill itself. Fuck. That noise.

You don't like his decision. Could he have gone another route? Yes. But does it really warrant a complaint? I very much doubt that. Was his conduct very disruptive of roleplay, or did you just want to do thing and didn't get to do thing because you were told no?

[Jamini]

I disagree entirely on that equivalence. Because operators have an ulterior motive and will profit from an evacuated station. The AI will not. That AI is willing to kill itself. Fuck. That noise.

 

The actions if the antagonist are not in question here. This is an instance of a head of staff who refuses to attempt to mount any sort of resistance and permitting his workplace for years to be destroyed.

But whatever. It is clear that nobody cares for actual conflict unless it's a one-sided curbstomp. I'm done. Fuck this noise.

[Gollee]

I'm sorry, but if I had less than 5 minutes to take out a dangerous AI with turrets, defences and likely cyborgs; or launch an evacuation, I would get the hell out of dodge. If anything, the loyalty implant would obligate him to evacuate, as the survival of the crew through evacuation is much more certain than the possibility of saving them through attacking the AI.

Jamini, if you want to complain about security powergame and silent combat in other instances, then do a complete turnabout when security actually cares about the crew, then I really don't know where you stand; Xander acted appropriately to this situation, he had two options, ensure evacuation, or attack the AI, he chose option A to save the crew, since that is his job; he doesn't have AI laws placing station integrity above everything else, he has his morals, and his loyalty to NT, he decided that NT would prefer it's highly trained crew to escape and survive instead of trying, and possibly dying against a powerful rogue synthetic.

[Jamini]

I'm sorry, but if I had less than 5 minutes to take out a dangerous AI with turrets, defences and likely cyborgs; or launch an evacuation, I would get the hell out of dodge. If anything, the loyalty implant would obligate him to evacuate, as the survival of the crew through evacuation is much more certain than the possibility of saving them through attacking the AI.

 

He had over six minutes (actually closer to 10, due to how time works in byond), and the AI had no active cyborgs.

My stance has always been that the crew should be permitted, able, and encouraged to rally themselves against open antagonits. I have never complained about security powergaming (though I have had complaints against security metagaming and security excess when it comes to the crew, which is an entirely different topic). Regularly giving up as a head is, to me, a strong indication that a player is not a good head of staff player and probably should not be whitelisted.

But again. I quit this topic. Lock it. Whatever. It's clear nobody gives a fuck about actually trying. Unless it's a curb-stomp. So just lock this and be done with it.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Guest

[Gollee]

My bad on that one, for some reason my mind said 600 seconds was 5 minutes...

Either way, it isn't a long time, and considering the CE was already dead, the AI was proactive, and a HoS would not know what it is fully capable of, especially through use of Atmos, power, and the like.

[Jamini]

My bad on that one, for some reason my mind said 600 seconds was 5 minutes...

Either way, it isn't a long time, and considering the CE was already dead, the AI was proactive, and a HoS would not know what it is fully capable of, especially through use of Atmos, power, and the like.

 

There were multiple living engineers. One of whom was in the brig. We also had the Ce's body along with all their equipment.

Six minutes is a long, long time. Especially if you are actually making the attempt.

My issue is not that he gave up, it is that he quit without trying. He made zero attempt at filling his role, instead fleeing with a very weak excuse of a malfunctioning implant.

If we are not going to have conflict in game modes that call for them, such as malf and nuke, then we may as well not have those game modes.

[Tainavaa]

I understand that you don't like thing Jamini, but I fail to see how this warrants a complaint as it did not break rules and was not disrupting roleplay.

[Jamini]

I understand that you don't like thing Jamini, but I fail to see how this warrants a complaint as it did not break rules and was not disrupting roleplay.

 

My issue is that he failed to respond to a situation in any manner that could be considered appropriate, cutting short the RP of people who did indeed want to try and resist the AI and absolutely failing to act in any way as a head of staff should act in that situation. That is: Organizing and Coordinating the crew to handle the threat.

My issue is that he completely, as a role that is expected to organize and coordinate players against the round antagonist, utterly failed to do so.

 

Aliyah Hadyara talks but you cannot hear .
You hug Miaze Sinnoh to make him feel better!
Omnir Al-Nasser has grabbed Miaze Sinnoh passively!
You cannot hear yourself speak!
Miaze Sinnoh mrowls, " Why?"
Timothy Bratton [145.9] says, "Lets do that"
Omnir Al-Nasser mrowls, " The AI has murdered the CE"
Aliyah Hadyara [Medical] yowls, " Sorry!"
Seamus O'Halloran [145.9] asks, "Where is the HoS?"
Timothy Bratton [145.9] exclaims, "Lets break into his core and fuck up his wires!"
Miaze Sinnoh mrowls, " He is knowing"
Timothy Bratton [145.9] says, "He chickened out"
Omnir Al-Nasser mrowls, " And those orders were to kill it. From central"
Omnir Al-Nasser mrowls, " Highest priority"
Tony Smith says, "Move go in"
Bao Xi [145.9] exclaims, "All aboard the science shuttle!"
Seamus O'Halloran [145.9] says, "If we finds him we can stop this"
Timothy Bratton [145.9] says, "Said "I don't know how to handle faulty AIs" and left"
Timothy Bratton [145.9] yells, "We gotta fight!"
LOOC: Jamini: It explicitly says to shut the AI down
Miaze Sinnoh mrowls, " Now is good time mentione, implant malfunctioned, he cannot beat AI"
Seamus O'Halloran [145.9] says, "Goddamnit"
Omnir Al-Nasser mrowls, " ...coward."
Timothy Bratton [145.9] says, "I know I am"
Seamus O'Halloran [145.9] says, "Bratton, it wont work, just go ahead and get off the station"

 

 

Timothy Bratton [145.9] says, "No......"
ÿSudden acceleration presses you into your chair!
Timothy Bratton [145.9] says, "Your all just gonna leave.."
ÿ!Aliyah Hadyara unbuckled !
Tony Smith [145.9] says, "Yes, through maintanance."
ÿ!Miaze Sinnoh unbuckled !
You unbuckle yourself from the chair.
Choi Hyun shouts, "DO I HEAR YOU!"
ÿ!Bao Xi unbuckled !
Choi Hyun exclaims, "I HAVE FLOODLIGHTS FOR YO!"
Aliyah Hadyara knocks on the reinforced window.
Choi Hyun says, "HELLLLLLOOOOO"
LOOC: Jamini: Nothing but disgust for people who give up
Timothy Bratton [145.9] says, "Cowards."
Choi Hyun HELLLOOOOOO!
En'mosy T'nelas [145.9] says, "Yes, live and let leave."
Choi Hyun yells, "HELLO!"
Timothy Bratton [145.9] says, "Each and every one of ya"

 

Timothy Bratton [145.9] yells, "Chickens and cowards every signle one of you!"
Omnir Al-Nasser mrowls, " So we are going to stay here and starve?"
Omnir Al-Nasser mrowls, " Is that your grand plan?"
Timothy Bratton [145.9] shouts, "Ugh its hopeless if ya all don't join me!"
Karina Miller [145.9] says, "Tim, we should leave them"

 

Why is this acceptable in a head of staff? One that is explicitly there to protect the station, it's assets, and the crew.

He didn't need to stay and try to shootbang the AI personally, but I do object very strongly to a head abdicating any and all responsibility to coordinate the crew against an external threat. Doubly so when he had at minimum four people (one of whom was an engineer) who were willing to contest the AI.

[Guest]

Lets see, would you expect a Security Officer, not even a Police Officer, a private security officer, of a laboratory on Earth, to remain inside to attempt to kill an AI with a nuclear countdown going off? No. Also, this isn't my workplace of many years, Miaze has worked on the Aurora for a few months now, he holds no value over the station beyond what he is required too. He is not trained in taking down AIs, or disarming nukes.

I'm sorry that charging the AI would have been out of character, but once again I'll say, I will /NOT/ change my characters for anyone but the administration.

[Tainavaa]

That is most definitely not the situation, Jamini. He failed to respond in any manner that would seem appropriate to you. From an objective point of view, what he did was just fine. His job is the security and wellbeing of the crew. To him, the security of the crew was very important.

The RP was not cut short, the course of the RP was changed through RP. Basically it boils down to you don't like it, and you want something done about it.

There are many ways to go about many different things that happen on the station. This in particular was one way that did not sit well with you because you wanted to fight the AI, and you were told no.

[Jamini]

No. Also, this isn't my workplace of many years, Miaze has worked on the Aurora for a few months now.

 

Minimum requirements for heads of staff are five years with NT in your respective department. He's worked for Nanotrasen for years.

 

From an objective point of view, what he did was just fine.

 

No. It isn't. He failed to respond to a threat in accordance to his role, and he permitted a hostile force to take over and subsequently destroy his workplace. This was when there were crew who did indeed want to try and salvage the situation and there were ample resources and time to do so!

If he was a normal security officer, I would not complain. He isn't. He's the fucking head of security. If you can't step up to the plate when shit goes down in command, you shouldn't be in command.

[Tainavaa]

It's not his job to die for the station. This is an overwhelming threat with an extent that is unknown. A lot of people - I'm going to assume you as well - seem to think that Heads of Security need to be some ever-vigilant supersoldier badass that's ready to respond to any threat at a moment's notice. That is not the case. Hell, even if he WAS an ever-vigilant supersoldier badass, he does not have the intel to accurately and safely say whether this is a threat that the station is ready to encounter.

You are looking at it only from your point of view. I'm looking at it particularly from a tactical point of view. What I was taught, is that you do not enter a fight without sufficient intel and the foreseeable odds are roughly 3:1. Neither of this is the case. And in fact, with an artificial intelligence with complete control of the station, I would say the odds were probably much less than 1:1 without going into meta information on mechanical limits of AI and rules as well as the meta knowledge of knowing people will be fanny flustered if they did thing to stop someone (such as VENT EVERYTHING VIOLENTLY).

But here's something to think about.

All these pieces of evidence you're giving, are pieces of evidence supporting why you should have fought the AI. You have not given pieces of evidence supporting why he should not have made that decision.

If you say something along the lines of "we were prepared, ready, etc." that falls under reasons why you should have fought the AI. That is not a reason he should not have made the decision he did.